Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

ArphaRima

he employs ten people ( and we have no reason to doubt him ) , then the various taxes he collected and signed the cheque for to the govt would almost certainly be more than the tax you paid

Indeed. Fair point. I was thinking personal tax.

The thing you need to remember is that the PS/CS exist to serve us. To run government, to supply services that we actually need to survive as a society. They work for us in good faith. The government is an employer like any other, albeit a large one that relies on it's employees to keep it in power (they are voters too). So it's weak on unions.
Unions are doing their job for their members. Ask your government to do theirs for you. You voted for them after all.

leitrim lad

look dont complicate it , people on the street are sick and tired of hearing another load of jobs gone here there and everywhere, i myself and strugling to keep 10 employees , and yet every hour on the radio or television its unions want this or ps workers want that,well it is as simple as this ye are not getting it, and if ye are not happy in yer jobs ,let it be for wages reason, or other then just quit, ye are not forced to work there, and remember how easily replaced ye are

no one is tying ye down and making ye work in the public sector,

stevoman

leitrim lad wrote: »

well it is as simple as this ye are not getting it, and if ye are not happy in yer jobs ,let it be for wages reason, or other then just quit, ye are not forced to work there

LOL, thats what you pay unions for, so that you dont have to quit if there is an industrial dispute.

leitrim lad wrote: »

and remember how easily replaced ye are

so its not a waste of money and so easily repacable for people to have to sit exams, hire exam halls, hire interviewers.

pay for training of civil servants, guards, army, nurses doctors, teachers. etc etc.

jimmmy

fluffer wrote: »

They work for us in good faith. The government is an employer like any other, albeit a large one that relies on it's employees to keep it in power (they are voters too). So it's weak on unions.
Unions are doing their job for their members. Ask your government to do theirs for you. You voted for them after all.

"Ask your government to do theirs for you." I think the politicians(who pay themselves far more than their counterparts abroad for example, even though they represent fewer people ) are more concerned with looking after themselves than individual here and there. I was talking to an individual earlier today for example - he has a small country shop and he has lost money this last year or two. Another self employed tradesperson I know has virtually no income as the economy has stopped ( for people buying non-essential items ) ....yet he does / can not get the dole and he has most of his ssia money / savings / family nest egg used up, and is heavily borrowed. Do you think people like him should "ask the govt to do their job" and if he does what difference will it make ? People like him are the ones who will be throwing eggs / rotten fruit at a public service march if there is one....or a politician if he sees one.

Sleepy

stevoman wrote: »

of course they understand. what is the goverment to do? privitise the public service?

Finally some sense out of you! As the recent driver testing scenario proved, much of the functions of the public sector can be carried out cheaper and more efficiently by the private sector.

Lets get some things straight, I don't mean to personalise this but you've pleaded your case and this is my verdict - you are not a highly qualified person. You have the Leaving Certificate, an un-named 'computer course' and an ECDL. An ECDL is about the educational equivalent of a higher-level Junior Certificate subject.

Your 'miserly' starting salary was the same as that I started on in the private sector working in I.T. with an honours B.Comm and a post-graduate Higher Diploma in Systems Analysis which I also got an honours in. So when you add in the fact you had a generous pension (and possibly other perks we regularly see in the Public Sector such as flexi-time, better holidays, no unpaid overtime, subsidised canteen, huge access to employer funded further education/training, etc.) you were being paid better than people who were considerably more qualified than you in the private sector (and if anything, I was one of those who fared better out of my graduating class).

Six years later, I'm certainly on more than double my starting salary but that's come through a number of promotions, working long hours (50-60 hour weeks aren't unusual for me though thankfully not the norm). In a unionised environment I wouldn't have fared so well though, because my willingness to put in the extra effort and, if I can be honest without sounding too arrogant, my own talent for what I do wouldn't have been rewarded. I'd have been stuck receiving the same increment as those who weren't putting in the effort or simply weren't much good at their jobs. Even in the private sector where there's no union, it's still reasonably difficult to fire someone for non-performance. I accept that these difficulties stem from past union activity which has ensure we have strong labour laws but now that they're in the legislation books, the unions' role is more of a hinderance to those of us who are prepared to work hard than it is any benefit.

I agree with the posters saying that we need to see the government lead by example, the workers of this country shouldn't have to listen to ministers and TD's who are paid (I honestly can't say they earn) relatively massive salaries tell us to accept pay cuts while they feather their nests at our expense. Yes, it's a drop in the ocean of the problem facing this country. Yes, it'd only be a symbolic gesture. Ask any *good* military strategist, business leader or even Paul O' Connell how to lead and they'll tell you though: from the front.

stevoman

Sleepy wrote: »

Finally some sense out of you! As the recent driver testing scenario proved, much of the functions of the public sector can be carried out cheaper and more efficiently by the private sector.

Lets get some things straight, I don't mean to personalise this but you've pleaded your case and this is my verdict - you are not a highly qualified person. You have the Leaving Certificate, an un-named 'computer course' and an ECDL. An ECDL is about the educational equivalent of a higher-level Junior Certificate subject.

Your 'miserly' starting salary was the same as that I started on in the private sector working in I.T. with an honours B.Comm and a post-graduate Higher Diploma in Systems Analysis which I also got an honours in. So when you add in the fact you had a generous pension (and possibly other perks we regularly see in the Public Sector such as flexi-time, better holidays, no unpaid overtime, subsidised canteen, huge access to employer funded further education/training, etc.) you were being paid better than people who were considerably more qualified than you in the private sector (and if anything, I was one of those who fared better out of my graduating class).

Six years later, I'm certainly on more than double my starting salary but that's come through a number of promotions, working long hours (50-60 hour weeks aren't unusual for me though thankfully not the norm). In a unionised environment I wouldn't have fared so well though, because my willingness to put in the extra effort and, if I can be honest without sounding too arrogant, my own talent for what I do wouldn't have been rewarded. I'd have been stuck receiving the same increment as those who weren't putting in the effort or simply weren't much good at their jobs. Even in the private sector where there's no union, it's still reasonably difficult to fire someone for non-performance. I accept that these difficulties stem from past union activity which has ensure we have strong labour laws but now that they're in the legislation books, the unions' role is more of a hinderance to those of us who are prepared to work hard than it is any benefit.

I agree with the posters saying that we need to see the government lead by example, the workers of this country shouldn't have to listen to ministers and TD's who are paid (I honestly can't say they earn) relatively massive salaries tell us to accept pay cuts while they feather their nests at our expense. Yes, it's a drop in the ocean of the problem facing this country. Yes, it'd only be a symbolic gesture. Ask any *good* military strategist, business leader or even Paul O' Connell how to lead and they'll tell you though: from the front.

im not pleading my case, i am stating the wat it has been for me. you consider me a not highly qualified person.. fine. i never said i was in the first place. i am still willing though to go out on strike at the unfairness of the pension levy to the lower paid and i stick by that. why should i pay more of a levy when my boss on 10k more who is paying less due to joining pre 1995?

you use the driving testing a example of privitisation. this has works alongside with the public sector driving test centre's. thats a small drop ocean to say that much of the public sector can be made private i think. what else falls under "much"... health, education, army, the guards, navy, civil service, county councils etc etc.

bottom line, i support the unions actions, espeically MY union and i will be supporting industrial action all the way no matter what due to the inconsistincies of the pension levy against the lower paid.


by the way if you dont mind my saying, you seem very arrogant.

hobochris

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Benchmarking? Yes to that.

YES, But where public sectors wages = private sector wages

NOT

public sector Wages > private sector wages. as it is now.

Sleepy

stevoman wrote: »

im not pleading my case, i am stating the wat it has been for me. you consider me a not highly qualified person.. fine. i never said i was in the first place. i am still willing though to go out on strike at the unfairness of the pension levy to the lower paid and i stick by that. why should i pay more of a levy when my boss on 10k more who is paying less due to joining pre 1995?

You shouldn't. I actually agree with you that the levy has been implemented unfairly but you have to ask who negotiated the deal that allowed different standards to be applied to those who joined post 1995?

you use the driving testing a example of privitisation. this has works alongside with the public sector driving test centre's. thats a small drop ocean to say that much of the public sector can be made private i think. what else falls under "much"... health, education, army, the guards, navy, civil service, county councils etc etc.

Every small drop can help fill a glass. When I refer to much of the roles being possible to privatise I'd include the ESB, RTE, I.T. Support for all the different departments, authorities etc, H.R., vast tracts of the HSE, Unspecialised admin roles, project management, building maintenance etc.

bottom line, i support the unions actions, espeically MY union and i will be supporting industrial action all the way no matter what due to the inconsistincies of the pension levy against the lower paid.

by the way if you dont mind my saying, you seem very arrogant.

Why? Because I know my value? To be honest, it's quite easy know your value when you work in a consultancy based role. The daily rates that I'm charged out at are known to me. I wouldn't be worth the entire figure without the support of the rest of the organisation but it's fair to say that independantly I know I could charge half that rate and I'd have plenty of work.

ArphaRima

"Ask your government to do theirs for you." I think the politicians(who pay themselves far more than their counterparts abroad for example, even though they represent fewer people ) are more concerned with looking after themselves than individual here and there. I was talking to an individual earlier today for example - he has a small country shop and he has lost money this last year or two. Another self employed tradesperson I know has virtually no income as the economy has stopped ( for people buying non-essential items ) ....yet he does / can not get the dole and he has most of his ssia money / savings / family nest egg used up, and is heavily borrowed. Do you think people like him should "ask the govt to do their job" and if he does what difference will it make ? People like him are the ones who will be throwing eggs / rotten fruit at a public service march if there is one....or a politician if he sees one.

Welcome to democracy. Did you vote for the Greens, PD's or Fianna Fail? Then shame on you. You brought this on yourself.
If you are unhappy with the current setup, then march. Go nuts. Have a riot. Get them out of power. Vote them out, push them out, shame them out.

There is no such thing as being powerless.

joolsveer

hobochris wrote: »

YES, But where public sectors wages = private sector wages

NOT

public sector Wages > private sector wages. as it is now.

What is the evidence that public sector workers are paid more than private sector workers? I have not seen any statistics from the CSO that show this.

jimmmy

joolsveer wrote: »

What is the evidence that public sector workers are paid more than private sector workers? I have not seen any statistics from the CSO that show this.

This highlights 2 points
(A) how poorly and inefficiently the CSO do their job ...see their website for example. Yet how much per annum does the CSO cost us all ?

(B) Everyone, inc the CSO, knows they are....see the figure for the average public sector salary on the CSO website is 49,000 ...plus the public service gets its pension subsidised ( how valuable is that ....well a Guard retiring at 55 would have to amass a pension fund of 1 million to have the same pension as the Guard ) plus has job security ( how valuable is that ...ask any of the self employed not making 100 euro a week, or the hundreds of thousands unemployed ).

thebman

Every small drop can help fill a glass. When I refer to much of the roles being possible to privatise I'd include the ESB, RTE, I.T. Support for all the different departments, authorities etc, H.R., vast tracts of the HSE, Unspecialised admin roles, project management, building maintenance etc.

The problem with the government coming out with this statement is they don't think their little drop will make a difference = hypocrisy. They should cut their wages and reduce the number of ministers to demonstrate they aren't hypocrites and people might be more accepting of cuts.

--edit-- just thought I'd add, I have never actually worked in the public sector but if their employers have this attitude, I can't blame them for being angry and fighting against cuts.

My previous employer had to make people redundant and I know that management took a wage cut months before that in an attempt to prevent it. Not only that but they have had to reduce wages across the board since and so as not to look hypocritical to the work force, they took a hit again.

Its just common fooking sense that management make the effort to and the government are the employers of the public service and are still maintaining the same lifestyle while telling them its time they had a wake up call.

jimmmy

thebman wrote: »

The problem with the government coming out with this statement is they don't think their little drop will make a difference = hypocrisy. They should cut their wages and reduce the number of ministers to demonstrate they aren't hypocrites and people might be more accepting of cuts.

hear hear

leitrim lad

how many more times do you want examples,

ie,, i rang gardai cos my yard was broken into and a van was stolen ,3 days later they arrive to tell me it is a civil matter and that ishould take it up with the drugee up the road who stole the van

and you honestly rekon that is worth my while paying taxes for,

what about the bottomless pit of money that has been ploughed in to the hse but yet if i end up in a&e tonight , im on a trolley for 2 days because the doctors/nurses are overpaid and usless wasters

what about all the money the employees of the opw waste sitting 8 hours a day in a hut in the corner of a field drinking tae ,until they get the call to say the clerk of works is coming then they look busy for the hole 15 minutes he is there

bloody hell even revenue was late paying their returns last year

the cheek of the ps/u and it is my money they are wasting and every other underpaid private sector worker

Sleepy

thebman wrote: »

The problem with the government coming out with this statement is they don't think their little drop will make a difference = hypocrisy. They should cut their wages and reduce the number of ministers to demonstrate they aren't hypocrites and people might be more accepting of cuts.

Couldn't agree more Bman.

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

This highlights 2 points
(A) how poorly and inefficiently the CSO do their job ...see their website for example. Yet how much per annum does the CSO cost us all ?

So how bad is the CSO? And why do you have to ask how much it costs, when it is not a secret? Unsupported bad-mouthing is not a useful way to discuss public affairs.

(B) Everyone, inc the CSO, knows they are....see the figure for the average public sector salary on the CSO website is 49,000...

Not bad going, for an organisation you think isn't doing its job: it gives you the data you require.

leitrim lad

the talks will hopefully keep the unions busy till the budget and then on the treat of another strike just before election more talks will take place to avoid that strike ,they will be hoarse by the time they fugure out what a fool they have made of them selves and their union members

jonsnow

as that atom crusher said in the simpsons"You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

how many more times do you want examples,

ie,, i rang gardai cos my yard was broken into and a van was stolen ,3 days later they arrive to tell me it is a civil matter and that ishould take it up with the drugee up the road who stole the van

and you honestly rekon that is worth my while paying taxes for,

what about the bottomless pit of money that has been ploughed in to the hse but yet if i end up in a&e tonight , im on a trolley for 2 days because the doctors/nurses are overpaid and usless wasters

what about all the money the employees of the opw waste sitting 8 hours a day in a hut in the corner of a field drinking tae ,until they get the call to say the clerk of works is coming then they look busy for the hole 15 minutes he is there

bloody hell even revenue was late paying their returns last year

the cheek of the ps/u and it is my money they are wasting and every other underpaid private sector worker

i've tried my best to remain chilled and count to 10 with this sort of nonsense, so please can someone try and do something against this sort of nonsensical ranting?

LL yet again your not providing any facts to back up anything you say. Your spouting personal anecdotal stories, and THAT ISN'T FACT.

your now pulling out sections of the workforce (doctors and nurses) and claiming that they are "overpaid and useless wasters", is there any point in asking if you have anything to back this up, or is it going to be another of your "I was in the hospital and I saw a doctor........" stories?

leitrim lad

people on trolleys is that not enough fact , it is great how the corruption flow over from the gaurds to the hse ,and god only knows where else i suppose mistik monkey you will tell me next that fas were entitled to blow all that money cop on man and face the truth

im saying what the population is thinking, and strike is going to be target practise for hard workers in the private sector to lash out at the waste of money in the public sector

NewDubliner

leitrim lad wrote: »

im saying what the population is thinking, and strike is going to be target practise for hard workers in the private sector to lash out at the waste of money in the public sector

While the public sector tightens its belt and quietly stops paying for over-priced private-sector goods and services.

leitrim lad

good point from one angle but the expence were on about is public sector wages ,and thats the reason they want to strike

they simply dont realise they are not worth a quarter what they are looking for, gardai average wage €1,000 per week

its time to get real there not worth €10 a week with the carry on of some of them

dresden8

stevoman wrote: »

another attempt? FAIL

Why you still in the lower grades? Interview FAIL?

Gumbo

leitrim lad wrote: »

good point from one angle but the expence were on about is public sector wages ,and thats the reason they want to strike

they simply dont realise they are not worth a quarter what they are looking for, gardai average wage €1,000 per week

its time to get real there not worth €10 a week with the carry on of some of them

yet MORE factless nonsense!
we in my dept. were striking over the unfair treatment and layout of the pension levy not for a pay rise, or anything like that which has been pointed out in so many posts but you just hear what you want to hear imo.

the government needs to reduce public spending, and that includes wages, and the hiring of many external private companies.

you want to pay a guard 10euro per week, then you wonder why they wont help when you report a crime which imo is made up, because its in no way a civil matter when somebody commits the crime of theft in this country.

leitrim lad

its an easy line for them to worm out of actually doing a bit of work isnt it and that was an example

on your levy what are you on about ,its money in the bank ,when you retire that money is in your pension and dont try and say differ

that is why it is called a pension levy

you cant have it both ways

NewDubliner

leitrim lad wrote: »

on your levy what are you on about ,its money in the bank ,when you retire that money is in your pension and dont try and say differ ...that is why it is called a pension levy

You should check your facts. The legislation specifically says that the pension levy confers no entitlement whatever.

It's a levy, it's not a contribution. If the employee leaves to take up a job in the private sector, he can't take the amount levied with him into a private-sector pension scheme.

It's based on the principal of a promise of a pension in the future. Next year, if things are not going well, people could just be fired and the pension could be stripped. It's just a simple matter of passing a law.

It's 'money in the bank' alright, but it's been given to the banks to bail them out after property speculators defaulted on their loans. Now the banks have our money, the speculators will not have to pay the money back as they're hiding behind shell companies.

Gumbo

leitrim lad wrote: »

its an easy line for them to worm out of actually doing a bit of work isnt it and that was an example

on your levy what are you on about ,its money in the bank ,when you retire that money is in your pension and dont try and say differ

that is why it is called a pension levy

you cant have it both ways

again, only hearing what you want to hear!
unfair spread of the levy is the fact that somebody earning 39k pays more than the fella earning 50-55k!

thast the unfair bit that the gov needs to sort out.

leitrim lad

well its beter taking the plevy than having a p45 waiting for you isnt it
i predict a huge reform on the way so ,that means they are all in trouble

and no harm either waken them up a bit

unions must remember whos boss and it is most certainly not them

P. Breathnach

kceire wrote: »

again, only hearing what you want to hear!
unfair spread of the levy is the fact that somebody earning 39k pays more than the fella earning 50-55k!

thast the unfair bit that the gov needs to sort out.

There are anomalies in the levy. One of them involves tax. Those not liable for tax don't get tax relief, and can end up paying a larger net levy than those who qualify for tax relief. There is a spike between €35 and €40k. People at that level can indeed pay more than those earning €50k. That is more in absolute terms, not just relative terms. See http://www.tascnet.ie/upload/public_service_pension_levy_1.pdf particularly the graph on final page.

My question for kceire: if that spike were smoothed out, would the levy be more tolerable?

leitrim lad

the only way out of this is to reform the public sector with a lorry load of p45s for the persons involved in loitering with unions that have no meaning