Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

leitrim lad

that is a very serios allegation have you got 1st degree proof to back your allegation,
the majority of self employed persons i know try to incease their turn over by taking on more work not the oppossite, mainly because the larger your turnover the higher your profits,which in turn leaves it easier to supply your business with capital ,let it be from a bank or other,
but what you are saying is that self employed persons are deliberatly lowering their turnover figures, on their accounts, that my friend is fraud,
and i dont belive it not for ine minute, that disputes the hole point of being self employed

oscarBravo

leitrim lad wrote: »

...what you are saying is that self employed persons are deliberatly lowering their turnover figures, on their accounts, that my friend is fraud,
and i dont belive it not for ine minute, that disputes the hole point of being self employed

You don't believe that some people under-declare their income on their tax returns?



Are you serious??

stevoman

leitrim lad wrote: »

that is a very serios allegation have you got 1st degree proof to back your allegation,

this is truly the kettle screaming at the pot calling it black

Naz_st

grahamo wrote: »

But its OK for the anti public sector ranters to "not compare like with like" by comparing ordinary workers in the public sector to members of quangoes etc.

Both are equally wrong, but I just call it as I see it - yours was blatant. And regardless, the "he started it" argument is hardly a mature position to take!

If you read my post I said the leeches were the tax fiddlers and dole cheats,
not specifically the self employed.

To quote your original post:

For me the leeches in this country are the tax fiddlers, the dole cheats and the many self employed who have been crying poor mouth to the taxman for every year of the recent boom claiming they are on the breadline and earn less than the minimum wage, mind you, most of them have holiday homes and pay for every round with €100 euro notes(Don't tell me this don't happen, We all know it does.)

So if you didn't mean to say that the "self-employed" are "leeches", you will understand how that may have been easily misconstrued.

leitrim lad

i would agree that there are (and i must be careful in what i say) some (small minority) that will try and avoid paying revenue each year

but i know of cases where people have gotten warning letters for not having their jan/feb vat returns in and we are only entering april now

but from my point of view it looks rediculas to down grade your company just to get out of paying the necessaties ,

and on the borrowing front then when you enter a bank , they want to see a high turnover/profits, as the higher margins the more you can borrow, what you are saying is that these people are dealing in undeclared cash, which could be found to be a form of money laundering

now that is well below the belt and if that is the tactics that the unions are using against the self employed private sector, they should get a slap on the wrist for it,
as i dont think that the self employed of this country who are strugling would appreciate being acused of fraud and money laundering, do you

oscarBravo

So basically what we have is a problem with sweeping generalisations.

If you say "public sector workers are..." or "union members are..." or "self-employed people are...", then whatever you say is a sweeping generalisation, and easily falsifiable with a single counter-example.

I can't help feeling how much less ill-informed bile, and how much more interesting discussion, this forum would contain if (a) people stopped making sweeping generalisations, and (b) other people stopped reacting angrily to them.

jimmmy

leitrim lad wrote: »

now that is well below the belt and if that is the tactics that the unions are using against the self employed private sector, they should get a slap on the wrist for it,
as i dont think that the self employed of this country who are strugling would appreciate being acused of fraud and money laundering, do you

Well said. I do not see many public sector types leaving their well paid jobs / guaranteed sick days / guaranteed holidays / guaranteed pension/ guaranteed dole if it does'nt work out....for anything else, do you ? Nearly everything is computerised now ( eg suppliers records ) and no self employed people I know are even making enough money to survive, never mind fiddle the books.

White dargo

leitrim lad wrote: »

but i know of cases where people have gotten warning letters for not having their jan/feb vat returns in and we are only entering april now

VAT returns for Jan/Feb were due by 19th March. Sounds like the Revenue staff are doing a sterling job in chasing down late payers by having warning letters out so soon. They should be commended for their efficiency, don't you think?

leitrim lad

the people who posted the piece about self employed persons (fiddling) will never understand what an audit is

when a company is audited it also includes the auditors keeping an eye on personal bank accounts belonging to directors also along with company accounts

auditors let no more than one cent fall because if they do they risk a tribunal for corruption

the same applies for soletraders and an audit could take one week or one year depending on the company and its directors situation

and to finish the only persons i am aware of that dodge the taxman is those who are wound up by the highcourts and placed in liquidation

again i must stress how below the belt that accusation was and is typical of a union to come out with especially when they know they havent got a leg to stand on

leitrim lad

i would agree however that revenue is probably the only efficent public sector arganisation at the minute

Naz_st

oscarBravo wrote: »

So basically what we have is a problem with sweeping generalisations.

If you say "public sector workers are..." or "union members are..." or "self-employed people are...", then whatever you say is a sweeping generalisation, and easily falsifiable with a single counter-example.

I can't help feeling how much less ill-informed bile, and how much more interesting discussion, this forum would contain if (a) people stopped making sweeping generalisations, and (b) other people stopped reacting angrily to them.

I disagree. Generalisations by definition cannot be falsified by a single counter-example. If there are no counter-examples it's not a generalisation, it's simply a fact.

There's nothing wrong with a generalisation if you can support the point with some evidence that it is "generally" true. E.g. "Generally our TDs are overpaid" + link to stats on our TDs vs U.K. MPs for example. You would be in the wrong to get offended by something that can be reasonably argued to be generally true, even if it is not true of your own (or some other) specific circumstances (for example, some could argue for the above example that a specific TD is doing a good job and deserves his pay, but that does not negate the veracity of the generalisation in the first place).

However, a generalisation such as "[Generally] Self-employed people are leeches" is not one of those statements. It is de facto false and cannot be backed up by evidence. It's not a generalisation: it's either a misrepresentation, a misinterpretation or plain wrong.

White dargo

leitrim lad wrote: »

and to finish the only persons i am aware of that dodge the taxman is those who are wound up by the highcourts and placed in liquidation

again i must stress how below the belt that accusation was and is typical of a union to come out with especially when they know they havent got a leg to stand on

Well LL I used to be "the taxman" in a past life and the stories I could tell:mad:

Take my word for it, SOME self employed people, and not a tiny minority btw, are master dodgers when it comes to tax matters.

jimmmy

really ? what statistics have you to back up your claim ? And what did the people do to qualify as "master" dodgers ? How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ? Do you think that seeing as things have tightened up people are able to do it now ? By the way, do you find or include people like teachers doings grinds, and college lecturers doing summer touristy cash jobs , among your
investigations - and if not, why not ?

leitrim lad

posibly , it may be true to a certain extent

but i personally do not see how they would benefit ,if you do not pay your taxes you are basically taking your own money out of your own pocket, and that means your robbing yourself

i do however know that some persons did avail of several tax incentives in the good years one for example was a lease agreement with finance companies, but as you didnt pay it to revenue for such an agreement ,you did however pay it to the bank on interest, and in the final payment a settlement had to be agred or else pay secondary finance, so it would probably have worked out cheaper to just pay revenue and own the asset at the end of the finance period

leitrim lad

that is an excellent point about grinds ,summer CASH jobs and so on ,
also to add to that list how many members of the gardai have been assessed for taxes , whilst the majority of them took advantage of the building boom and built several houses across the country and used their uniforms to cheaply purchase the sites, and corner builders for favors to supply materials etc

White dargo

jimmmy wrote: »

really ? what statistics have you to back up your claim ? And what did the people do to qualify as "master" dodgers ? How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ? Do you think that seeing as things have tightened up people are able to do it now ? By the way, do you find or include people like teachers doings grinds, and college lecturers doing summer touristy cash jobs , among your
investigations - and if not, why not ?

Your a class act Jimmmmmmmmmmmmmmy. You expect me to produce statistics about work I did in the past in an organisation that I don't work for anymore to back up my assertion that some self employed are tax dodgers in my experience.

And then........... you go off another anti-public service tirade about teachers and college lecturers doing cash jobs, assisted in a further post by the Gardai hating leitrim lad claiming they took advantage of the uniform for personal gain, without erm statistics :rolleyes:.

leitrim lad is there no end to how low you will go with the comment about the guards?

Scofflaw

leitrim lad wrote: »

that is an excellent point about grinds ,summer CASH jobs and so on ,
also to add to that list how many members of the gardai have been assessed for taxes , whilst the majority of them took advantage of the building boom and built several houses across the country and used their uniforms to cheaply purchase the sites, and corner builders for favors to supply materials etc

Banned for two weeks. Re-registration etc will cause a permanent ban, as will repeat offences when the ban is lifted.

annoyed,
Scofflaw

dresden8

leitrim lad wrote: »

guess what not one public sector worker has this problem they dont have to worry about their pay cheqe bouncing next weejk neither

You're wrong on that one too.

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

really ? what statistics have you to back up your claim ? And what did the people do to qualify as "master" dodgers ? How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ? Do you think that seeing as things have tightened up people are able to do it now ? By the way, do you find or include people like teachers doings grinds, and college lecturers doing summer touristy cash jobs , among your
investigations - and if not, why not ?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/defaulters/index.html

There you go jimmmy. Knock yourself out.

givyjoe81

stevoman wrote: »

no the "pension levy" is going straight into the exchequer, so it is essentially a pay cut. do your homework and ege your facts straight.

So your unhappy with this levy, that is essentially a pay cut... And thats unfair in these times, how exactly?! When all those around you, are taking pay cuts, private sector for the most part. Because you cant pay your car tax?! You seem like a young lad, do you drink smoke, have you any expensive habits? Becuase if you cannot absorb your levy/paycut/peace-of-the pain-in-which-we-are-going-to-have-to-share-in, then you were living beyond your means in the first place.

And for future reference, if your going to question the validity of the points people make based on spelling errors, then perhaps you should spell check your own posts from now, by your law own logic you havent' made a valid point for quite some time now. Dont think the odd spelling mistake is that big a deal myself.;)

Edited as iv just read your earlier post regarding personal circumstances, while your the same age as me approx, you obviously have heavier financial pressures, which would certainly be understandable given the wages you quoted, after tax i assume.

I still cant understand how after nine years you are only on that rate of net pay, seems strangely low considering the 'average' starting pay for clerical post which i looked at myself not so long ago was 24k.

I dont mean to be condoscending at all my friend and i am sure you are further education is well withing your capabilities, but an ECDL cert and a leaving cert would get you squat in the Private Sector, so i dont see why it should get you anything other than a reasonably low level of pay in the public sector. Harsh but fair.

thebman

givyjoe81 wrote: »

I dont think he's arrogant one bit... Or is that his point about being better qualified after touching a nerve?! My class mates in my masters class have been lucky to secure a few graduate positions in September starting salary 24k.. How much does the average Leaving Cert qualified admin public service worker start on... not far off 24k. Who 'deserves' the 24k more.. the leaving cert educated worker or the masters graduate?!

Oh and Inferiority complex much...?!

This is a very valid point but it doesn't just depend on your qualification but he work being done and the experience. You need more details to make the conclusion.

I know someone who graduated top of our class working for minimum wage because they don't want to work in the industry they are qualified for.

By your logic he should be earning more than the guys running the place with leaving cert experience.

I know what your saying and I agree in general for someone with a better education with more responsibilities etc... deserves more money but if your doing the exact same job, the masters shouldn't mean any more than a 1,000 euro difference at most IMHO.

givyjoe81

thebman wrote: »

This is a very valid point but it doesn't just depend on your qualification but he work being done and the experience. You need more details to make the conclusion.

I know someone who graduated top of our class working for minimum wage because they don't want to work in the industry they are qualified for.

By your logic he should be earning more than the guys running the place with leaving cert experience.

I know what your saying and I agree in general for someone with a better education with more responsibilities etc... deserves more money but if your doing the exact same job, the masters shouldn't mean any more than a 1,000 euro difference at most IMHO.

I deleted that cos i didnt want to seem like i had personal problem with the chap of anything plus had a little to say after anyway.Not really sure if i get ya, but excuse me its late!

Im not saying that someone in an identical position should be paid more because he has a masters. But that logic is also flawed, why shouldnt you pay someone more who has a masters over someone who doesnt.. Should you not pay more in order to attract the best candidates? I think thats actually the Public Services problem in the last couple of years, they HAVE been paying to much for certain positions to attract the best candidates, such as Admin Officer positions which i applied for myself, starting at 32k.

Such salaries are the reason why i applied, and why so many other graduates are clammering to get into the Public Service. myself i was on 23k (no bonus either) in a private sector position at the time i applied, where my endeavours made the company 100k in the nine months i was there (My boss actually decided to show me this interesting piece of accounting for some reason), hence i was trying to bite the Public services arm off!

And back to the original point, why not pay the masters student more, who after all should represent a better prospect for promotion, management etc, depending if they are makin use of their qualification.

dresden8

givyjoe81 wrote: »

When all those around you, are taking pay cuts,

No, no they're not.

jimmmy

White dargo wrote: »

You expect me to produce statistics about work I did in the past in an organisation that I don't work for anymore to back up my assertion that some self employed are tax dodgers in my experience.

We all know that some self employed over the years have been tax dodgers - out of hundreds of thousands of people what do you expect. However, you still have not answered the questions :
How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ? Do you think that seeing as things have tightened up people are able to do it now ?

White dargo wrote: »

And then........... you go off another anti-public service tirade about teachers and college lecturers doing cash jobs,

you still have not answered the question:
"do you find or include people like teachers doings grinds, and college lecturers doing summer touristy cash jobs , among your
investigations - and if not, why not ?"

White dargo wrote: »

assisted in a further post by the Gardai hating leitrim lad claiming they took advantage of the uniform for personal gain

I also know for a fact that type of thing did go on but I would not tar all Garda with the same brush.

White dargo

jimmmy wrote: »

We all know that some self employed over the years have been tax dodgers - out of hundreds of thousands of people what do you expect. However, you still have not answered the questions :
How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ? Do you think that seeing as things have tightened up people are able to do it now ?

you still have not answered the question:
"do you find or include people like teachers doings grinds, and college lecturers doing summer touristy cash jobs , among your
investigations - and if not, why not ?"



I also know for a fact that type of thing did go on but I would not tar all Garda with the same brush.

Already told you that I don't work there anymore and couldn't take stats with me but didn't some other kind person (was it dresden8?) provide you with a link to the Revenue site? I had a quick look last night. As a proportion of total self employed in the country I'll let you work it out. I have to go to a wedding today. Honestly;). I'll be back around midnight or 1 a.m. Maybe you'll have worked it out by then.

I think that seeing as things have tightened up some people will still try to dodge paying tax, yes. Why not?

Never had to deal with teachers, lecturers etc because I wasn't working in a PAYE section. Other people would have dealt with them.

It's big of you not to tar all gardai with the same brush :rolleyes:. In fairness, from reading your posts, your spite and vitriol does seem aimed at the CS mostly rather than the wider PS. Did a civil servant kick your cat once upon a time?

jimmmy

White dargo wrote: »

Already told you that I don't work there anymore and couldn't take stats with me but didn't some other kind person (was it dresden8?) provide you with a link to the Revenue site?

You still have not answered the question : How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people ?

White dargo wrote: »

I had a quick look last night. As a proportion of total self employed in the country I'll let you work it out. I have to go to a wedding today. Honestly;). I'll be back around midnight or 1 a.m. Maybe you'll have worked it out by then.

You answer the question as you are the expert in that area : "How many people did you come across who were master dodgers, and what proportion is that out of the hundreds of thousands of self-employed / small business people "

White dargo wrote: »

I think that seeing as things have tightened up some people will still try to dodge paying tax, yes. Why not?

Yes. Some people will sometimes do nixers etc, no matter what walk of life they are from.

White dargo wrote: »

Never had to deal with teachers, lecturers etc because I wasn't working in a PAYE section. Other people would have dealt with them.

So only people in the PAYE section would have dealt with "teachers, lecturers etc" ? How would people in the PAYE section have detected teachers doing grinds, Lecturers doing summer touristy cash work, Gardai letting a house, a paye disc jockey from a radio station opening a "friends" niteclub, a FAs employee doing a nixer etc ? You said you came across tax dodgers but you never heard of them ? C'mon, you say you "used to be "the taxman" in a past life and the stories you could tell"...go on, go on, go on.

ArphaRima

used their uniforms to cheaply purchase the sites, and corner builders for favors to supply materials etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by White dargo
assisted in a further post by the Gardai hating leitrim lad claiming they took advantage of the uniform for personal gain

I also know for a fact that type of thing did go on but I would not tar all Garda with the same brush.

I'm not aware of this scam. How can a Garda get a piece of land cheaper than anyone else??!
Sounds like a load of crap to me.

jimmmy

I never personally heard of a guard using his position to get a piece of land cheaper than market value, though I do know of seperate, isolated cases by an auctioneer and a solicitor where that happened. If a Guard goes in to a small shop and is well known as a guard, and haggles on a price for something " whats de best ye can do ? etc ", who can say what .....
I would not tar all Garda with the same brush. In general I have a lot of respect for them. Its important not to fall out with them..."now wheres ye seat belt " etc.

Scofflaw

White dargo wrote: »

Already told you that I don't work there anymore and couldn't take stats with me but didn't some other kind person (was it dresden8?) provide you with a link to the Revenue site? I had a quick look last night. As a proportion of total self employed in the country I'll let you work it out. I have to go to a wedding today. Honestly;). I'll be back around midnight or 1 a.m. Maybe you'll have worked it out by then.

Easy. There's about 350 tax defaulters on each spreadsheet, so about 1400 in a year. They're not all self-employed, but we'll ignore that for now.

According to the CSO, there's about 324,500 self-employed people in the country.

So the tax defaulters list would represent 0.43% of the self-employed in any given year - assuming that everyone on the list is self-employed, which they're not, and assuming they are all fiddling their taxes. Now it so happens that someone I know is on one of this year's lists, and so I know the latter is not true either. Far from fiddling his taxes, he is on the defaulters list because he is unable to pay his taxes, and too depressed to contact the Revenue about it.

So we are left with a figure a good deal smaller than 0.43% of the self-employed who are found to be fiddling their taxes in any given year. Now, one can question the Revenue's detection rates, but sooner or later nearly everyone gets audited, and if one is found to be fiddling taxes for the audit year, the audit spreads out. If you're not self-employed, you've probably never been through a Revenue audit, but try to imagine the Garda spending a couple of days at your house, asking for receipts for everything you own. The mere probability of audit does a lot to promote honesty.

Nor does the Revenue apparently feel that their detection rates are less than 1%, which is what would be required to get from the figures for detected tax default to a majority of the self-employed. For even 10% of the self-employed to be tax fiddlers and produce the figures we see, Revenue detection rates would need to be 2.5%, which would still be a national scandal.

So the view that any significant proportion of the self-employed are engaged in tax fiddling is not supported at all by the available figures, including the figures that posters here have "referred to" as supposedly backing their case. Do the arithmetic, people, before chucking these "everybody knows" generalisations about.

cordially,
Scofflaw

dresden8

jimmmy wrote: »

though I do know of seperate, isolated cases by an auctioneer and a solicitor where that happened.

Were they public sector auctioneers and solicitors?

Jimmmy's attack on public servants about everything on nearly every thread is getting really old, really fast.

He seems to get his idea of public service life from watching Miami Vice dvds where all cops own sports cars and live on their yachts berthed in the marina.

Anyway must go, gotta jump from my helicopter onto a speedboat to take down some perps, in a pastel suit.