Laws Question? Ask here!

daveharnett

Shelflife wrote: »

I stand corrected, so allowing the ball to bounce off your knee would be deemed to be a knock on?

No. Knock ons refer to the hand or arm. 'Kneeing' the ball forward would be the same in effect as kicking or heading the ball forward. The only reason the distinction is drawn is because bouncing the ball off the knee is not a valid way to take a penalty.

Definition: Knock on
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Downtime

daveharnett wrote: »

No. Knock ons refer to the hand or arm. 'Kneeing' the ball forward would be the same in effect as kicking or heading the ball forward. The only reason the distinction is drawn is because bouncing the ball off the knee is not a valid way to take a penalty.

Kneeing or 'thighing' the ball forward is a penalty if it is in open play. If it is from a FK or P it is a scrum as per law clarification 10-2004.

Shelflife

Downtime wrote: »

Kneeing or 'thighing' the ball forward is a penalty if it is in open play. If it is from a FK or P it is a scrum as per law clarification 10-2004.

I knew that you couldnt knee or thigh the ball for a fk or pen but what law states that say kneeing the ball over an opponents head is a pen?

not argueing downtime just curious.

Downtime

Shelflife wrote: »

I knew that you couldnt knee or thigh the ball for a fk or pen but what law states that say kneeing the ball over an opponents head is a pen?

not argueing downtime just curious.

Under the definitions. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

and under law 21.3(b) for PK and FK.

In general play it would be considered deliberate hence the harsher sanction. There is not an actual law for general play for the 'kick' off the knee but it is interpreted this way.

castie

Downtime wrote: »

Under the definitions. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

and under law 21.3(b) for PK and FK.

In general play it would be considered deliberate hence the harsher sanction. There is not an actual law for general play for the 'kick' off the knee but it is interpreted this way.

So its not a kick by law.
That doesnt mean its illegal.
I remember one of the kiwi 10's that played in the UK doing it.

Downtime

castie wrote: »

So its not a kick by law.
That doesnt mean its illegal.
I remember one of the kiwi 10's that played in the UK doing it.

Yes Carlos Spencer did it. The try was awarded and was widely debated after and was decided that it should not be allowed and he should have been penalised for it.

Sanity_Saviour

What are the rules concerning double movement? I had a try disallowed once where i simply got up after being tacked when I wasn't held yet the next game I almost crawled on the floor for a try and it was allowed no question?

phog

I was rewatched the M/L final again and saw the following.

Murray was bundled to touch, he released the ball, the TJ called it to be in touch (no cribs there) as Murray had released the ball it was still in the field of play, Munster players played on for a few seconds until Nigel Owens spots the flag, he blows it up and indicates the lineout to Leinster, Luke grabs the ball, runs to the touchline and takes a quick throw, ref allows it, surely, this is allowed?

castie

phog wrote: »

I was rewatched the M/L final again and saw the following.

Murray was bundled to touch, he released the ball, the TJ called it to be in touch (no cribs there) as Murray had released the ball it was still in the field of play, Munster players played on for a few seconds until Nigel Owens spots the flag, he blows it up and indicates the lineout to Leinster, Luke grabs the ball, runs to the touchline and takes a quick throw, ref allows it, surely, this is allowed?

Similar to running down the pitch and putting a foot in touch and being called back for it. Fuzzy on the rule on this but as long as its the same ball, someone from outside the field of play hasnt interfered and a lineout isnt adjudged to have been formed its okay?

Losty Dublin

Downtime wrote: »

Under the definitions. By definition 'A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee…'.

and under law 21.3(b) for PK and FK.

In general play it would be considered deliberate hence the harsher sanction. There is not an actual law for general play for the 'kick' off the knee but it is interpreted this way.

Law 21.3B pertains to the taking a penalty or a free kick and the means of taking it with a view to restarting the game after an infringement; it doesn't apply to anything that happens in open play and it certainly does not ban a player from kneeing the football.

Losty Dublin

Sanity_Saviour wrote: »

What are the rules concerning double movement? I had a try disallowed once where i simply got up after being tacked when I wasn't held yet the next game I almost crawled on the floor for a try and it was allowed no question?

Most likely, you failed to release the ball upon you being brought to ground from the tackle. Once the tackle grounds you then it's a successful tackle and the onus is on you to release the ball and move away and for them to release you and move away. If tackled close to the try line you may reach out to ground the ball immediately.

If you can post us Youtube link of each incident we can make a better call

phog

castie wrote: »

Similar to running down the pitch and putting a foot in touch and being called back for it. Fuzzy on the rule on this but as long as its the same ball, someone from outside the field of play hasnt interfered and a lineout isnt adjudged to have been formed its okay?

I'm fuzzy too but I thought only the player that took it out and the player who takes the throw were the only ones could touch it.

Downtime

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Law 21.3B pertains to the taking a penalty or a free kick and the means of taking it with a view to restarting the game after an infringement; it doesn't apply to anything that happens in open play and it certainly does not ban a player from kneeing the football.

Yes and I made a distinction between open play and a PK / FK in my post. In open play, a kick, a defined in page 6 of the law book must be under the knee to the foot. Anything outside of this is illegal.

TBH I'm not here to guess an answer I don't know, I answer questions where I am 100% positive of the answer. I'm sure if you email the IRB they will answer the question for you if you are not happy with my answer.

Losty Dublin

Downtime wrote: »

Yes and I made a distinction between open play and a PK / FK in my post. In open play, a kick, a defined in page 6 of the law book must be under the knee to the foot. Anything outside of this is illegal.

TBH I'm not here to guess an answer I don't know, I answer questions where I am 100% positive of the answer. I'm sure if you email the IRB they will answer the question for you if you are not happy with my answer.

I appreciate and understand that; the mention of a certain Law may throw people from the point in question. Getting back to the point in hand, there isn't any defined offence of "kneeing" a ball in open play so it's not illegal as such, just undefined. If it worrying you that much then raise it at the formation meeting tomorrow

Taco Corp

I noticed in the Ireland match yesterday that the scrum call was much quicker than it has been for most of the season. Has there been a directive from the IRB on this?

phog

Surley wrote: »

I noticed in the Ireland match yesterday that the scrum call was much quicker than it has been for most of the season. Has there been a directive from the IRB on this?

and still we were penalised for going too early

daveharnett

castie wrote: »

Similar to running down the pitch and putting a foot in touch and being called back for it. Fuzzy on the rule on this but as long as its the same ball, someone from outside the field of play hasnt interfered and a lineout isnt adjudged to have been formed its okay?

19.2(d) wrote:

A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and an opponent who carried it into touch.

When any third party (including other players on the field) has touched the ball, then a quick throw in should not be allowed.

daveharnett

Downtime wrote: »

Yes and I made a distinction between open play and a PK / FK in my post. In open play, a kick, a defined in page 6 of the law book must be under the knee to the foot. Anything outside of this is illegal.

TBH I'm not here to guess an answer I don't know, I answer questions where I am 100% positive of the answer. I'm sure if you email the IRB they will answer the question for you if you are not happy with my answer.

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I appreciate and understand that; the mention of a certain Law may throw people from the point in question. Getting back to the point in hand, there isn't any defined offence of "kneeing" a ball in open play so it's not illegal as such, just undefined. If it worrying you that much then raise it at the formation meeting tomorrow

I'm with Losty on this one. Other than a taking very broad interpretation of 'loses posession', there's nothing in law to suggest that deliberately propelling the ball forward with anything other than the hand/arm is not allowed.

Downtime, I appreciate that there are a good few 'laws' that aren't in the law book, but if this was a directive/interpretation from the Spencer era and it is still supposed to hold, then it surely would have made it into the book by now?

Downtime

daveharnett wrote: »

I'm with Losty on this one. Other than a taking very broad interpretation of 'loses posession', there's nothing in law to suggest that deliberately propelling the ball forward with anything other than the hand/arm is not allowed.

Downtime, I appreciate that there are a good few 'laws' that aren't in the law book, but if this was a directive/interpretation from the Spencer era and it is still supposed to hold, then it surely would have made it into the book by now?

Just stating my opinion on it. Discussed it with other referees at the weekend and we were all in agreement that the ball cannot be propelled forward with the knee or thigh because of a) the definition of a kick in the law book, b) the law in relation to FK/PK and c) the law clarification.

tolosenc

OK, in the Ireland - England match today:

England had a ruck just outside their 22. Their SH box kicks and it was blocked down by an Irish player, looping straight through the air to Wilkinson, who then, inside his 22, booted straight to touch.

My question is, should that not count as having carried the ball back?

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

OK, in the Ireland - England match today:

England had a ruck just outside their 22. Their SH box kicks and it was blocked down by an Irish player, looping straight through the air to Wilkinson, who then, inside his 22, booted straight to touch.

My question is, should that not count as having carried the ball back?

If an Irish guy brought the ball into the 22, then it's ok or after a 2nd phase (I think, it might be 3rd phase) if brought back by your own team.

karlitob

tolosenc wrote: »

OK, in the Ireland - England match today:

England had a ruck just outside their 22. Their SH box kicks and it was blocked down by an Irish player, looping straight through the air to Wilkinson, who then, inside his 22, booted straight to touch.

My question is, should that not count as having carried the ball back?

Nope, the Irish player, as such, brought it back into the English 22.

karlitob

I was reminded of my favourite law yesterday. Its never called by referee's and can be used fairly to smash an player who is time wasting in his/her own in-goal.

- Law 13.9 (c).


13.9 BALL GOES INTO THE IN-GOAL
(a) If the ball is kicked into the in-goal without having touched or been touched by a player, the opposing team has three choices:
To ground the ball, or
To make it dead, or
To play on.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.

Great law!

CatFromHue

I have a question.

In the game yesterday on two occasions Ireland had a line out in the English 22. On both times the English didn't compete but instead when the Irish jumper had caught the ball they drove through the line. The jumper would still have been in the air when they did this. It looked like on both occasions the ref knew what was going on but let it happen both times.

Does anyone know why? I'd have thought it should have been a penalty to Ireland as the jumper was still in the air and so could have been dangerous play.

karlitob

CatFromHue wrote: »

I have a question.

In the game yesterday on two occasions Ireland had a line out in the English 22. On both times the English didn't compete but instead when the Irish jumper had caught the ball they drove through the line. The jumper would still have been in the air when they did this. It looked like on both occasions the ref knew what was going on but let it happen both times.

Does anyone know why? I'd have thought it should have been a penalty to Ireland as the jumper was still in the air and so could have been dangerous play.

I agree with you. The jumper must be allowed to return to the ground before begin tackled. Penalty kick as you suggested.

daveharnett

CatFromHue wrote: »

I have a question.

In the game yesterday on two occasions Ireland had a line out in the English 22. On both times the English didn't compete but instead when the Irish jumper had caught the ball they drove through the line. The jumper would still have been in the air when they did this. It looked like on both occasions the ref knew what was going on but let it happen both times.

Does anyone know why? I'd have thought it should have been a penalty to Ireland as the jumper was still in the air and so could have been dangerous play.

I'd like another look at it, but I did see one incident live where an irish jumper seemed to find an english player underneath him when he came down.

Owens said that the jumper's own lifters didn't let him down. Not having seen a replay I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but if that's what he saw then he should have penalised ireland for it. The obligation to get players to ground safely cuts both ways.

Sundy

karlitob wrote: »

I was reminded of my favourite law yesterday. Its never called by referee's and can be used fairly to smash an player who is time wasting in his/her own in-goal.

- Law 13.9 (c).


13.9 BALL GOES INTO THE IN-GOAL
(a) If the ball is kicked into the in-goal without having touched or been touched by a player, the opposing team has three choices:
To ground the ball, or
To make it dead, or
To play on.

(c) If they opt to ground the ball or make it dead, they must do so without delay. Any other action with the ball by a defending player means the player has elected to play on.

Great law!

This only applies to kick off's and restarts not kicks from open play and isnt an excuse to smash anyone.

It basically means that if a player delays grounding the ball from a kick off the result is a drop out 22 as apposed to a scrum back at the centre if they touch it down immediately.

karlitob

Sundy wrote: »

This only applies to kick off's and restarts not kicks from open play and isnt an excuse to smash anyone.

I know it is. I didn't say anywhere in my post that it wasn't from a kick off or restart. And yes, it is an excuse to smash someone.

Sundy wrote: »

It basically means that if a player delays grounding the ball from a kick off the result is a drop out 22 as apposed to a scrum back at the centre if they touch it down immediately.

No it basically means what it says - play on! If I tackle that player in this instance the chances are that he will either ground it again or will be tackled into the dead-ball or touch-in-goal - 22 out, as you say. However, that may not happen, as the player with the ball may evade the tackle and 'play on'.

DerTierarzt

Deleted User wrote: »

The law clearly says "Reaches". I'm sure that means gets there with or without the assistance of a bounce.

As seen, if it reaches the 10m line in mid air and is blown back, then that's play on too.

Any choice of kick, so long as the ball strikes the ground first is fine, a dirty grubber of an "onside kick" a la American Football is fine too.

However, referees may be pedantic in their judgement of the restart as rugby is not the kind of game that allows you to angle-shoot too often. It's a bit like the underhand serve in tennis, legal, but not quite allowed.

That'd be interesting... Anyone actually seen this happen?

DerTierarzt

phog wrote: »

How would you physically do it, you have to drop the ball to the ground and kick it on the rebound, doubt you could do it and more importantly cant see why you'd take the chance to miss kick it and become a luaghing stock.

Turn half cocked, keep an eye on the ball, and scoop kick with your heel. Not that difficult with a bit of practice. Range isn't great mind you, but it works.