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tolosenc

So if the ball is going out and I'm 10 meters out of play, if I swing my boot at it and it goes back into play without bouncing, it was never in touch?

Losty Dublin

tolosenc wrote: »

So if the ball is going out and I'm 10 meters out of play, if I swing my boot at it and it goes back into play without bouncing, it was never in touch?

No, it is in touch unless you have 10 meter long limbs

The ball is in touch the instant it crosses the touchline unless a player with both feet within the field of play catches the ball; they must then immediately knock or kick the ball back into play. Similarly, a player in touch may knock or kick a ball that has not gone into touch. In both cases the player must not pass the ball and the knock back/ kick must be done immediately.

judosean2005

Ok remember at the beginning of todays match,when Earls caught ball and his foot was in touch(from the kick off)..
Why was that a line out??

I remember seeing an irish match,kearney i think it was, he caught the ball and had his foot over the line and Ireland were given possession.because was out in full.

And i remember the Commentator saying Good work by Kearney understanding the unusual rule of the game??

Any ideas?
just curious really

cython

judosean2005 wrote: »

Ok remember at the beginning of todays match,when Earls caught ball and his foot was in touch(from the kick off)..
Why was that a line out??

I remember seeing an irish match,kearney i think it was, he caught the ball and had his foot over the line and Ireland were given possession.because was out in full.

And i remember the Commentator saying Good work by Kearney understanding the unusual rule of the game??

Any ideas?
just curious really

At a guess I'd say the ref/touch judge thought/decided that Earls' foot only touched the ground after the catch, and therefore he would have carried it into touch, whereas Kearney's foot would have been planted before the catch that time. I don't recall exactly what the replay showed, but I know it was close. I also don't think that Earls intended to do the same as what you describe, as he tried to run it rather than it coming back for a scrum on halfway, which might have swung the decision towards him putting his foot down after by mistake, and thus in favour of the Aussies.

Cill94

cython wrote: »

At a guess I'd say the ref/touch judge thought/decided that Earls' foot only touched the ground after the catch, and therefore he would have carried it into touch, whereas Kearney's foot would have been planted before the catch that time. I don't recall exactly what the replay showed, but I know it was close. I also don't think that Earls intended to do the same as what you describe, as he tried to run it rather than it coming back for a scrum on halfway, which might have swung the decision towards him putting his foot down after by mistake, and thus in favour of the Aussies.

Yes, had Earls' foot been in touch before he caught the ball then it would have been Irish possession, although whether it would have been a scrum or lineout I'm not sure. It's because he caught the ball and THEN put his foot in touch that the Aussies were given the lineout.

Podge_irl

Cill94 wrote: »

Yes, had Earls' foot been in touch before he caught the ball then it would have been Irish possession, although whether it would have been a scrum or lineout I'm not sure. It's because he caught the ball and THEN put his foot in touch that the Aussies were given the lineout.

If Earls had his foot in touch before catching the ball it would have been a scrum on half way for the restart going straight out.

hugh2006

Afternoon all,

Had a (quick) look through this thread for the answer but couldn't see it so sorry if repeating this question.

As a hooker, can I lift at 1 in a defensive lineout while inside the 5? I've practised it in training with the defending jumper on the 5 (in order to allow them to get in front of the attacking team's jumper) but tried to do it in a friendly over the weekend & the ref said that if "you're taking part in the lineout, you can't be inside the 5".

My view is that as a designated hooker, I am allowed inside the 5 at a defensive lineout whether I'm lifting or just covering for a short one/the blind. Also, as per the ref's comment about "taking part of the lineout", I am taking part of the lineout when inside the 5 whether lifting or not. If not, what the hell am I doing on the pitch!!! :mad:

Thoughts?

cython

hugh2006 wrote: »

Afternoon all,

Had a (quick) look through this thread for the answer but couldn't see it so sorry if repeating this question.

As a hooker, can I lift at 1 in a defensive lineout while inside the 5? I've practised it in training with the defending jumper on the 5 (in order to allow them to get in front of the attacking team's jumper) but tried to do it in a friendly over the weekend & the ref said that if "you're taking part in the lineout, you can't be inside the 5".

My view is that as a designated hooker, I am allowed inside the 5 at a defensive lineout whether I'm lifting or just covering for a short one/the blind. Also, as per the ref's comment about "taking part of the lineout", I am taking part of the lineout when inside the 5 whether lifting or not. If not, what the hell am I doing on the pitch!!! :mad:

Thoughts?

I think this is covered by Law 19.8, as quoted below:

(j) Player between touch and 5 metres. The team not throwing in must have a player standing between the touchline and the 5-metre line on that team’s side of the line of touch when the lineout is formed. That player must stand 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line.

I presume when you say you are "a designated hooker" you mean you are fulfilling the role of the player required to stand between the 5m line, and the touchline. If you were to lift at 1, you would have to break the requirement to stand 2 metres from the 5 metre line, so my interpretation would be that the ref was right.

Losty Dublin

Taking part in the line out in that context means that you are within the 5 and 15 metre lines when the ball is thrown in. The reason why a man from the non throwing in team stands in the tramlines is a throwback to the times when the blindside winger was normally the man throwing in the ball. As it was too easy to flick back to the unmarked thrower his opposite winger was allowed to plug this gap yet without being in the 10x10 metre zone behind the lineout itself.

The receiver (ie, the scrum half position) can however lift and take park in the line out and lifting etc, maybe you were thinking of him

mossyc123

A few quick questions:

If you score 4 tries and lose the game or draw the game do you still get the bonus point?

If you lose by 7 points or less and also score 4 tries do you get 2 bonus points?

cython

mossyc123 wrote: »

A few quick questions:

If you score 4 tries and lose the game or draw the game do you still get the bonus point?

If you lose by 7 points or less and also score 4 tries do you get 2 bonus points?

The Wikipedia page makes the point (based on a Planet Rugby article) that the French system (whereby the 4 try bonus point is replaced with one for winning and scoring 3+ tries more than the opponents) "prevents a losing team from picking up two bonus points in the same match, as is possible under the normal system" so presumably the answer to both your questions is yes.

Brother Psychosis

mossyc123 wrote: »

A few quick questions:

If you score 4 tries and lose the game or draw the game do you still get the bonus point?

If you lose by 7 points or less and also score 4 tries do you get 2 bonus points?

the answer to both is yes, AFAIK - i saw somewhere during the week that the second of your questions is actually the only possibility for ireland to get through with a loss on sunday

Cookie_Monster

If a penalty kick bounces then goes over the bar does it remain a valid score, or is there some rule which dis-allows it?

Losty Dublin

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If a penalty kick bounces then goes over the bar does it remain a valid score, or is there some rule which dis-allows it?

Perfectly fine on paper as per Law 9. How a penalty kick would manage to bounce and still cross the bar for a score is another story

cython

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Perfectly fine on paper as per Law 9. How a penalty kick would manage to bounce and still cross the bar for a score is another story

I'd check Law 9.A.2 if I were you:

(a) If after the ball is kicked, it touches the ground or any team-mate of the kicker, a goal cannot be scored.
(b) If the ball has crossed the crossbar a goal is scored, even if the wind blows it back into the field of play.
(c) If an opponent commits an offence as the kick at goal is being taken, but neverthless the kick is successful, advantage is played and the score stands.
(d) Any player who touches the ball in an attempt to prevent a penalty goal being scored is illegally touching the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So no, Cookie_Monster, no score in that scenario.

Losty Dublin

cython wrote: »

I'd check Law 9.A.2 if I were you:


So no, Cookie_Monster, no score in that scenario.

Apologies, I misread it as being applicable only to drop goals.

Ardillaun

I'm sure this has been gone over already but there seems to be a hemispheric difference over the 'held in tackle' rule. Our guys are used to getting up if they are not held but the Oz/NZ refs and commentators consider such players tackled.

castie

Ardillaun wrote: »

I'm sure this has been gone over already but there seems to be a hemispheric difference over the 'held in tackle' rule. Our guys are used to getting up if they are not held but the Oz/NZ refs and commentators consider such players tackled.

I noticed this.
To be honest I think their interpretation is correct.

If I bring a player to the ground and leave go on the way down so that I can release the player before trying to claim the ball that should count as a tackle.
Otherwise the tackled player can just get up and doesnt have to release the ball.

Downtime

castie wrote: »

I noticed this.
To be honest I think their interpretation is correct.

If I bring a player to the ground and leave go on the way down so that I can release the player before trying to claim the ball that should count as a tackle.
Otherwise the tackled player can just get up and doesnt have to release the ball.

If you hold a ball carrier and bring him to ground he must release the ball. If you tap tackle him he doesn't. It is the holding action on bringing the player to ground that determines whether or not a tackle has taken place rather than holding him on the ground. If you go to ground you are the tackler and must release before playing the ball. If you do not go to ground you are not a tackler but the player is still 'a tackled player' and must release the ball.

castie

Downtime wrote: »

If you hold a ball carrier and bring him to ground he must release the ball. If you tap tackle him he doesn't. It is the holding action on bringing the player to ground that determines whether or not a tackle has taken place rather than holding him on the ground. If you go to ground you are the tackler and must release before playing the ball. If you do not go to ground you are not a tackler but the player is still 'a tackled player' and must release the ball.

Leaving go on the way down is an example of not holding someone on the ground as I was saying. I wasnt suggesting tap tackles count.

Your interpretation of releasing the player is flawed here.
You do not have to go to ground to be the tackler.
Plenty of penalties for people tackling yet never leaving their feet but pinged for not releasing the man.

Downtime

castie wrote: »

Leaving go on the way down is an example of not holding someone on the ground as I was saying. I wasnt suggesting tap tackles count.

I wasnt suggesting you were - just giving extra information

castie wrote: »

Your interpretation of releasing the player is flawed here. You do not have to go to ground to be the tackler. Plenty of penalties for people tackling yet never leaving their feet but pinged for not releasing the man.

What I am saying is that if you do not go to ground - you are not a tackler. Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers. Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

CatFromHue

What happens when a defender hits the ball over their own dead ball line?

I'm thinking about the Bowe TMO decision against the Italians. My take on it was that Bowe wasn't impeded (or not enough to stop him grounding the ball) and didn't ground the ball. The Italian player didn't ground it either but was the last in contact with it before it went over the dead ball line. Should this have been a 5m scrum to Ireland?

sydthebeat

I heard recently that there is a rule in RWC that either
1. you can only have two front row forwards on your subs bench or;
2. you can only name one prop and one hooker as a sub.

this could be two sides of the one rule, but is what i heard correct?

the question comes in light of George Hooks article here
where he states:
"What was astonishing was that the coach had just two front-rows on the bench. One would have imagined that with a one-dimensional plan, Mallett would have picked two props and a hooker on stand-by."

am i only imagining this rule??

Downtime

sydthebeat wrote: »

I heard recently that there is a rule in RWC that either
1. you can only have two front row forwards on your subs bench or;
2. you can only name one prop and one hooker as a sub.

this could be two sides of the one rule, but is what i heard correct?

the question comes in light of George Hooks article here
where he states:
"What was astonishing was that the coach had just two front-rows on the bench. One would have imagined that with a one-dimensional plan, Mallett would have picked two props and a hooker on stand-by."

am i only imagining this rule??

Not sure about this. You need at minimum to have 2. When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums. I am sure they could have more than two.

Downtime

CatFromHue wrote: »

What happens when a defender hits the ball over their own dead ball line?

I'm thinking about the Bowe TMO decision against the Italians. My take on it was that Bowe wasn't impeded (or not enough to stop him grounding the ball) and didn't ground the ball. The Italian player didn't ground it either but was the last in contact with it before it went over the dead ball line. Should this have been a 5m scrum to Ireland?

If it was intentional it is a penalty try if it prevented a try or else it is a penalty as per law 10.2 (c) Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line if the offence is between the 15-metre line and the touchline, or, at the place of infringement if the offence occured elsewhere in the field of play, or, 5 metres from the goal line and at least 15 metres from the touchline if the infringement occured in in-goal.
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

In the above case I think he went to ground it so the 22 drop out would have been the correct decision as Tommy Bowe played it into the in goal area.

sydthebeat

Downtime wrote: »

Not sure about this. You need at minimum to have 2. When 19, 20, 21 or 22 players are nominated in a team there must be five players who can play in the front row to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement hooker is required, and on the first occasion that a replacement prop forward is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums. I am sure they could have more than two.

just checked this here (suppose i should have done it first )

rule 3. 4 states
"A team can substitute up to two front row players (subject to Law 3.14 when it may be three) and up to five other players"

and rule 3.14 states
"When 22 or 23 players are nominated in a team there must be sufficient front row players to play at hooker, tight-head prop and loose-head prop who are suitably trained and experienced to ensure that on the first occasion that a replacement in any front row position is required, the team can continue to play safely with contested scrums."


so my reading is where 7 or 8 substitutes are permitted to be named then you can make 3 front row substitutions. But where less substitues are allowed, then only 2 front row substitutes are allowed to be made. So i guess hooky was right on this occasion.

daveharnett

Downtime wrote: »

What I am saying is that if you do not go to ground - you are not a tackler. Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and do not go to ground are not tacklers. Opposition players who hold the ball carrier and bring that player to ground, and who also go to ground, are known as tacklers.

Just a +1 on this.

If a ball carrier has somebody holding him when he hits the ground, he is tackled.

Strangely, the player who 'tackled' him isn't considered a 'tackler' unless he goes to ground too. In either case, he needs to release the ball carrier to give him a momentary chance to get rid of the ball. The only material difference is that a 'non-tackler' must come around to his own side before looking for the ball.

daveharnett

CatFromHue wrote: »

What happens when a defender hits the ball over their own dead ball line?

The outcome is the same as if they had touched it down.
If an attacker put/carried the ball into the goal area, then a 22
If a defender put/carried the ball into the goal area, scrum 5 attacking.

Downtime wrote: »

If it was intentional it is a penalty try if it prevented a try or else it is a penalty as per law 10.2 (c) Throwing into touch. A player must not intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with his arm or hand into touch, touch-in-goal, or over the dead ball line.
Sanction: Penalty kick on the 15-metre line if the offence is between the 15-metre line and the touchline, or, at the place of infringement if the offence occured elsewhere in the field of play, or, 5 metres from the goal line and at least 15 metres from the touchline if the infringement occured in in-goal.
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

I've never seen this enforced when a defender knocks a kick dead in-goal. I wouldn't about getting pinged for it.

Sundy

daveharnett wrote: »

The outcome is the same as if they had touched it down.
If an attacker put/carried the ball into the goal area, then a 22
If a defender put/carried the ball into the goal area, scrum 5 attacking.


I've never seen this enforced when a defender knocks a kick dead in-goal. I wouldn't about getting pinged for it.

If i rightly recall Rob Kearney got a yellow for this against wales or somebody a year or two ago.

Edit: Maybe wasnt Kearney, deffo saw it happen though.

Shelflife

Ya i think it was Trimble, not sure though.

Reffed a game where a young lad threw/passed the ball out over the line as it was half time, he wasnt at all happy when then opposition got a pen from it.