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What a load of rubbish.
If I throw a pass at a 80 degree angle to the sideline in a backwards direction unless im the flash its going to be moving backwards even though my motion is forwards and so is the guy very deep from me whos recieving.
I take your point. Where the forward motion is less relative to the angle back at which the pass is made, the 'phenomenon' does not arise.
I should have made clear that I was only talking about the very lateral passes made at a bit of speed illustrated in the link given by yourself. Clearly if the ball is passed at a very acute angle to the sidelines its likely to be moving backwards both over the ground and relative to the point of release. The point is that the law as interpreted and applies only requires compliance with the latter of those two possibilities.
Bit loose of me - sorry.Losty Dublin wrote: »No, forward means towards the opposition's try line. There are instances in oepn play when a player may pass the ball forward relative to how he is facing; a scrum half from a loose or set scrum being a common enough one
Very true - its about where his point of release is and whether the ball moves forward from there as opposed to what direction he is facing.Gracelessly Tom wrote: »Quick law question......
Attacking player carries the ball over the line but in the act of trying to ground it the defence get control of the ball and as it is placed at the back of the ruck (ruck is over the tryline in the scoring zone) the ref blows the whistle as he feels the ball has been touched down by the defending team. Is this a scrum 5 or should it be a 22 drop out seeing as the attacking team caused the ball to go over the tryline? Happened in our match on Sat and I'm curious as to the correct call.
Law 22.7 applies in the usual way :-
"22.7 RESTARTING AFTER A TOUCH DOWN
(a) When an attacking player sends or carries the ball into the opponents’ in-goal and it becomes dead there, either because a defender grounded it or because it went into touch-in-goal or on or over the dead ball line, a drop-out is awarded. "
In your example the attacking players have sent or carried the ball into the opponent's in goal where it is made dead by the touchdown - 22 drop out is the correct call.0 -
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Gracelessly Tom wrote: »Thanks lads, my own thought at the time was a 22 drop out and despite my protestations to the ref he insisted on a scrum 5 to us, the defending team. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't some obscure exception to the rule that I wasn't aware of.
Funny thing was, the ref acknowledged they carried it over and he also felt we grounded it.
There are teams who would prefer a scrum 5 instead as it's better possession and a chance to releive ground, maybe he felt sorry for you all 0 -
Losty Dublin wrote: »There are teams who would prefer a scrum 5 instead as it's better possession and a chance to releive ground, maybe he felt sorry for you all
Really? I would personally always opt for the 22 in that situation. With the scrum you can lose possession, give away a penalty, get blocked down over your own line, etc. The 22 can be hoofed down the pitch to relieve pressure. Or hung up to be competed for outside your 22.0 -
Gracelessly Tom wrote: »Really? I would personally always opt for the 22 in that situation. With the scrum you can lose possession, give away a penalty, get blocked down over your own line, etc. The 22 can be hoofed down the pitch to relieve pressure. Or hung up to be competed for outside your 22.
Maybe so but consider the options here,- Most drop outs get you maybe 15 metres up field and defending again in open play. Not every team has a good kicker to make time and ground; ie into their 22 so it may not be the most attractive.
- Garryowening a drop out is total madness, something you'd see the U 14's try or maybe a rugby league team on the final tackle as it's a lottery as to what happens.
- Assuming you will probably give away penalties that easy at the scrum is silly unless you are playing for Scotland
- While a kick from a scrum gives away a line out it at least puts your defence on an even organised footing and it takes pressure off as well. Some teams choose to go with a back row movement to make some space for the clearance, giving a bit more relief and time.
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Losty Dublin wrote: »Maybe so but consider the options here,
- Most drop outs get you maybe 15 metres up field and defending again in open play. Not every team has a good kicker to make time and ground; ie into their 22 so it may not be the most attractive.
- Garryowening a drop out is total madness, something you'd see the U 14's try or maybe a rugby league team on the final tackle as it's a lottery as to what happens.
- Assuming you will probably give away penalties that easy at the scrum is silly unless you are playing for Scotland
- While a kick from a scrum gives away a line out it at least puts your defence on an even organised footing and it takes pressure off as well. Some teams choose to go with a back row movement to make some space for the clearance, giving a bit more relief and time.
Munster Northampton game at Thomand.
Id of screamed bloody murder if the ref gave Munster a defending 5m scrum rather than a 22 as it could very well of been a penalty.
Its not just Scotland!0 -
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Losty Dublin wrote: »Maybe so but consider the options here,
- Most drop outs get you maybe 15 metres up field and defending again in open play. Not every team has a good kicker to make time and ground; ie into their 22 so it may not be the most attractive.
- Garryowening a drop out is total madness, something you'd see the U 14's try or maybe a rugby league team on the final tackle as it's a lottery as to what happens.
- Assuming you will probably give away penalties that easy at the scrum is silly unless you are playing for Scotland
- While a kick from a scrum gives away a line out it at least puts your defence on an even organised footing and it takes pressure off as well. Some teams choose to go with a back row movement to make some space for the clearance, giving a bit more relief and time.
A 22 drop out only getting you 15 metres? A 22 can easily get the ball into the opposition half.
I never mentioned garryowening a 22, merely said you could hang one up, like a lot of teams do, and compete to win it in the air.
I didn't assume we'd give away penalties in the scrum but 5ms out from your own line is not the time to take chances on giving one away or the ref's interpretation leading to one against us.
A kick from a 5m scrum rarely goes further than the 22m line, putting the opposition in a much better position than a long 22 drop out landing in open play.0 -
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That a scrum 5 is a better platform than a 22 drop out for clearing the ball is madness, surely?
My mother can drop kick a ball farther than 15 metres so that's no argument. The scrum is risky as a penalty can be awarded one way or the other on the flip if a coin and in this instance it seems the ref in question gets his decisions from fortune cookies.
Even if possession was kept the ball would have to be cleared either by the SH or passed back to the OH losing more distance. Can't see any benefit at all.
Lads Lads Lads Lads. I didn't say that is is the better option atall atall atall, just that some teams would take a scrum over a 22 at time and under certain circumstances, it isn't the worst option.
Your Mum has a good boot on here BTW 0 -
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Losty Dublin wrote: »Lads Lads Lads Lads. I didn't say that is is the better option atall atall atall, just that some teams would take a scrum over a 22 at time and under certain circumstances, it isn't the worst option.
Your Mum has a good boot on here BTW
She has an even better right hook!!!0 -
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