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CIARAN_BOYLE

TimeToShine wrote: »

One more, what determines who gets the lineout when the ball is kicked out? Sometimes when a player kicks the ball out from a free kick his team will get the ball, and other times it'll be the other teams lineout. Same goes for kicking out from free play. Also, does the ball bouncing inside before going out make a difference?

Ball bouncing inside, whether or not the ball is inside or outside he 22 and whether its a penalty or not makes a difference to the lineout situation.

In general you only get to keep possesion after kicking the ball out if it is a penalty (not a free kick). All other times its opposition ball.

The full lineout laws are here http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_19_EN.pdf

kensutz

TimeToShine wrote: »

One more, what determines who gets the lineout when the ball is kicked out? Sometimes when a player kicks the ball out from a free kick his team will get the ball, and other times it'll be the other teams lineout. Same goes for kicking out from free play. Also, does the ball bouncing inside before going out make a difference?

A free kick results in a throw in awarded to the opposition. Also it must bounce before going out of play if kicked outside the 22. That's the simple part of it. Other combos depend on the opposition trying to keep the ball in, where their feet are placed when catching the ball on/over the line etc. But in essence, free kick goes to the opposition, penalty goes to kicking team.

Samich

Can a flanker pick the ball at the scrum.

MyKeyG

Samich wrote: »

Can a flanker pick the ball at the scrum.

No. The only players allowed to take the ball out of the scrum is the Scrum half and the number 8.

Losty Dublin

MyKeyG wrote: »

No. The only players allowed to take the ball out of the scrum is the Scrum half and the number 8.

Not quite so but to be fair this is something that a lot of people assume to be the case of Law when it appears to be the case.

A scrum ends when the ball crosses the goal line leaves the scrum in any direction behind the tunnel or when the foot of the hindmost player unbinds when the ball is at his/her feet and then plays the ball or when the ball leaves the scrum in any direction bar the front row tunnel.

As a scrum may wheel around, a player in the flanker position can reasonably be the hindmost man and thus be entitled to pick up at his/her feet and play the ball; in practice it usually is the No 8 but it's not always the case. Likewise, if the ball shoots out beside a flanker he has the right to pick up and play the ball as the scrum has ended.

In relation to a scrum half, they have no protection under the law that give them the right to take the ball out of the scrum; they can only play the ball when the scrum is over as above. Indeed, no player may handle the ball in the scrum under pains of giving away a PK but the subtle nature of the SH playing the ball at the back is something us ref types help along for the sake of game management

Samich

Just on scrums, can the ball come out of the flankers side say, come out the side of the scrum?

Losty Dublin

Samich wrote: »

Just on scrums, can the ball come out of the flankers side say, come out the side of the scrum?

Yes, it surely can. The only direction that the ball can't leave the scrum is via the front row tunnel.

shuffol

How come if a player knocks on close to the opponents 22 and the ball goes into the in goal area where it is touched down by the defending side the referee never plays advantage and allows a 22 drop out, he always brings it back for a 5m scrum. Surely a 22 drop out is more advantageous than a scrum on your own line.

I've seen this happen numerus times most recently in the Munster-Connacht game.

castie

shuffol wrote: »

How come if a player knocks on close to the opponents 22 and the ball goes into the in goal area where it is touched down by the defending side the referee never plays advantage and allows a 22 drop out, he always brings it back for a 5m scrum. Surely a 22 drop out is more advantageous than a scrum on your own line.

I've seen this happen numerus times most recently in the Munster-Connacht game.

Personally I would offer the captain an option of which he would want.

shuffol

castie wrote: »

Personally I would offer the captain an option of which he would want.

Are you a ref castie? Are you saying its the referees discretion? Its just I cant remember any instances where a ref has allowed the advantage and a 22 drop out although I suppose it could happen and I just dont notice.

castie

shuffol wrote: »

Are you a ref castie? Are you saying its the referees discretion? Its just I cant remember any instances where a ref has allowed the advantage and a 22 drop out although I suppose it could happen and I just dont notice.

I have reffed in Hong Kong a bit yes but not too much so Im not expert.

Just to clarify also some of what you said doesnt make sense

How come if a player knocks on close to the opponents 22 and the ball goes into the in goal area where it is touched down by the defending side the referee never plays advantage and allows a 22 drop out, he always brings it back for a 5m scrum

If he knocked on by the 22 why would it be a scrum 5? I think you mean a scrum where the knock on took place yes?

Losty Dublin

castie wrote: »

Personally I would offer the captain an option of which he would want.

A call on a matter of fact in the game is never offered by a referee to a player except for those specified in the rule book. If a referee is to do that then the whole concept of a referee being in control of the game goes down le swanee. Just ask Paul O'Connell

Back to the query itself; without commenting on the specific incident as it seems unclear but in general the level of advantage offered varies depending on the circumstances at the time. The field position of both teams, the quality of possession at the time of asking, the potential space at hand relative to the options available and crucially if the advantage is accruing from a knock on, free or penalty will affect how long it's played for; this is sometimes what we hears as being a tactical advantage. As advantage is based on the non offending team moving forward and keeping the ball alive on the field of play, there can no tactical gain if an opposing player plays it and the non offending team has no chance to make an advantage happen.

To give an example which may cover the OP's point, if red knock forward in the 22 and the ball crosses the goal line and is grounded by blue, blues didn't get a chance to try for an advantage (if anything red may have chased the spilt ball putting blue under pressure) so nothing was gained and a scrum back is called to blue. Similarly, if blues gathered and played on and didn't progress or the kick to clear didn't gain space then blue get the scrum.


Where there is foul play spotted, advantage should not be played and the offenders dealt with as need be.

daveharnett

shuffol wrote: »

How come if a player knocks on close to the opponents 22 and the ball goes into the in goal area where it is touched down by the defending side the referee never plays advantage and allows a 22 drop out, he always brings it back for a 5m scrum. Surely a 22 drop out is more advantageous than a scrum on your own line.

I've seen this happen numerus times most recently in the Munster-Connacht game.

The non-offending team needs to gain an advantage before the ball goes dead. Otherwise play goes back for the original offense (this is also why a knock-on into touch is always a scrum). In the instance you describe, by grounding the ball the defender has effectively turned down the chance to run the ball and try for an advantage.

The most obvious exception to this is a subsequent foul play from the offending team.

Samich

SO if a player is going to the line, and knocks it on. And the defending team ground it, it's always a 5m scrum to the defending team?

phog

shuffol wrote: »

How come if a player knocks on close to the opponents 22 and the ball goes into the in goal area where it is touched down by the defending side the referee never plays advantage and allows a 22 drop out, he always brings it back for a 5m scrum. Surely a 22 drop out is more advantageous than a scrum on your own line.

I've seen this happen numerus times most recently in the Munster-Connacht game.

Why a 5m scrum for an offence that happened at the 22? When did this happen in the M v C game?

Losty Dublin

Samich wrote: »

SO if a player is going to the line, and knocks it on. And the defending team ground it, it's always a 5m scrum to the defending team?

Pretty much, yes as no advantage has been made. I appreciate that you will argue that a 22 is better etc etc but the knock on advantage wouldn't carry on to the 22.

ArmaniJeanss

Whats the logic behind a conversion having to be taken in line with where the try was scored?

It seems to discriminate against trys scored out wide for no obvious reason other than 'thats the way its always been'.

Losty Dublin

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Whats the logic behind a conversion having to be taken in line with where the try was scored?

It seems to discriminate against trys scored out wide for no obvious reason other than 'thats the way its always been'.

When the game began there was no score per say for grounding the ball beyond the goal line. Instead, a team got a chance to "try" to score a goal, the line of kick being where the ball was grounded. A successful kick meant that your effort was converted into points, it being a converted try. Over time, a score was given for the grounding as well, with a kick at goal after still remaining in place.

MyKeyG

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Whats the logic behind a conversion having to be taken in line with where the try was scored?

It seems to discriminate against trys scored out wide for no obvious reason other than 'thats the way its always been'.

Surely allowing the kick to be taken in front of the posts would negate the principle of going for two extra points? You have to imagine 99.9% would be scored so why not just award seven points for a try and get on with the game?

You're right it does discriminate against wide tries which makes the game much more interesting especially if a team NEED a seven pointer to win or draw.

ArmaniJeanss

MyKeyG wrote: »

Surely allowing the kick to be taken in front of the posts would negate the principle of going for two extra points? You have to imagine 99.9% would be scored so why not just award seven points for a try and get on with the game?

You're right it does discriminate against wide tries which makes the game much more interesting especially if a team NEED a seven pointer to win or draw.

Well its effectively saying that a try scored right by the sideline is a 'lesser' try than one scored under the posts, which seemed slightly incongruous.
In fact trys scored out wide are (a decent percentage of the time) the culmination of a fantastic flowing move down the wing, whereas a try under the posts can be a breakaway move after an interception.
Yet the system awards the latter an easy conversion, whilst the wide try gets a 50/50 shot at a conversion.

I do accept your point that it would be stupid if all conversions were under the posts, so I'm not sure what could be done differently.

(An American football type 'choice' system would have been interesting - one point for a 40 metre conversion in front of the posts, two points for taking it from the sideline)

MyKeyG

Taking into consideration the breakaway try you have to feel the conceding team deserve to be punished with seven for whatever poor play led to the try such as the two Munster gave away tonight:mad:

Personally I think breaking through a defence at it's strongest point under the posts is much more difficult than spreading the ball in this eras more athletic game. To put that one to bed though you'd have to have the figures indicating the ratio between scores under the posts to scores on the wings in a given season.

whitey21

Can anyone tell me the rule around makin an interception?? Like today at Exeter v quins, a one arm interception by exterwas tried/or else it was an intentional knock forward and a free to quins was awarded!! If an interception is attempted, if you do not do so successfully, and the ball moves firward from the interceptees arm, is it a knock on and a free to the team originally in possession??

CIARAN_BOYLE

whitey21 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me the rule around makin an interception?? Like today at Exeter v quins, a one arm interception by exterwas tried/or else it was an intentional knock forward and a free to quins was awarded!! If an interception is attempted, if you do not do so successfully, and the ball moves firward from the interceptees arm, is it a knock on and a free to the team originally in possession??

should be a scrum to the team that did not knock it on or a penalty if the ref rules it a deliberate knock on

whitey21

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

whitey21 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me the rule around makin an interception?? Like today at Exeter v quins, a one arm interception by exterwas tried/or else it was an intentional knock forward and a free to quins was awarded!! If an interception is attempted, if you do not do so successfully, and the ball moves firward from the interceptees arm, is it a knock on and a free to the team originally in possession??

should be a scrum to the team that did not knock it on or a penalty if the ref rules it a deliberate knock on

That's kinda what I want to know. Its always awarded to the team that did not knock on. The severity, scrum or penalty, depends on the intention behind it? As I was sayin in my original post, exeter attempted an interception with one arm and a penalty was awarded. This was ruled as intentional knock on so??

Samich

If a player is tackled late and is in the process of taking a kick, where is the penalty given? Is there a choice between the penalty from where the ball landed and scrum from where the tackle was. What happens if the kick went out on the full (legally)?

Downtime

Samich wrote: »

If a player is tackled late and is in the process of taking a kick, where is the penalty given? Is there a choice between the penalty from where the ball landed and scrum from where the tackle was. What happens if the kick went out on the full (legally)?

If the ball goes out of play into touch it is on the 15m line. if it lands between touch and the 15 it is on the 15, if it is between the 15s it is where it lands. There is no scrum option given.

Reloc8

whitey21 wrote: »

That's kinda what I want to know. Its always awarded to the team that did not knock on. The severity, scrum or penalty, depends on the intention behind it? As I was sayin in my original post, exeter attempted an interception with one arm and a penalty was awarded. This was ruled as intentional knock on so??

Correct

The ref has to make a decision on whether a genuine attempt to intercept the ball was being made, or whether the defending player is has simply knocked it on to disrupt the attacking play, knowing he could never make the intercept.

Covered specifically by Law 12.1(e) says a player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.

Sanction is a penalty kick at the place of infringement, or penalty try if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored.

Generally, Law 10.2(a) applies - a player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. 'The Player who intentionally offends must be either admonished or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.

Sanction is a penalty kick at place of infringement or penalty try as apppropriate.

Also Law 10.4.(m) says that a player must not do anything that is against the spirit of good sportsmanship.

Sanctions as per 10(2)(a).

What a ref will probably look at in deciding whether the attempted intercept resulting in knock on is an intentional knock on is :-

a) how the defender contacts the ball - two handed is more likely to be an effort to catch than one hand but that is not always definitive. Whether the defender knocks the ball downwards or upwards with a grasping motion is more important.

b) whether the defender leaves his feet - diving at the ball is often more likely to be an intentional knock on than running at it.

c) position on the pitch - last defender out wide deep in his own half would want to be very careful about how he goes for an intercept (this is more relevant to whether a penalty try is warranted as opposed to intentional/accidental knock on)

d) skill levels - some very skilled players are very good at getting enough contact at the ball with one hand to control it and intercept it; see a) above - using one hand is not determinative of an intentional knock on.

^ no one factor is definitive. It can be a difficult call to make.

Reloc8

Samich wrote: »

If a player is tackled late and is in the process of taking a kick, where is the penalty given? Is there a choice between the penalty from where the ball landed and scrum from where the tackle was. What happens if the kick went out on the full (legally)?

Downtime wrote: »

If the ball goes out of play into touch it is on the 15m line. if it lands between touch and the 15 it is on the 15, if it is between the 15s it is where it lands. There is no scrum option given.

Just to add that they do have an option on where to take the penalty kick from (which could be relevant from e.g. some sort of grubber/cross kick on the attack, where the late hit is closer to in line with the posts than where the ball lands or is next played :

Law 10(4(o) 'A Player must not intentionally charge or obstruct an opponent who has just kicked the pall'

Sanction - The non-offending team may choose to take the penalty kick either at the place of infringement, where the ball lands, or where it was next played.

gooch2k9

Can a quick throw be taken anywhere behind where the ball went out or does it have to be at the spot the actual lineout would occur?

CIARAN_BOYLE

gooch2k9 wrote: »

Can a quick throw be taken anywhere behind where the ball went out or does it have to be at the spot the actual lineout would occur?

anywhere behind where the ball went out