Laws Question? Ask here!

kensutz

The ball hasn't left the hindmost foot and it is still in the ruck, so no.

Steve Perchance

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

if a scrum half has hands on the ball while it's still technically in the ruck, can the scrum half be tackled?

Nope, the ball has to be behind the hindmost foot before its out. Usually during a scrum, once the scrumhalf has hands on, they're fair game, hence the confusion.

Its usually something a good flanker will test out, as different referees will give different levels of protection to the scrum half

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

AFAIK, hands on means ruck over, so Yes.

Not so although it's often mistaken to be the case. The ball is only playable by hand when the ball has left the ruck or if the ruck ceases to be through other means (Say, it pops out to the side.). Laying hand on the ball doesn't end the ruck; the ball itself must leave the ruck before it's in open play again. In effect this means that the ruck is only over when a player has picked up the ball from the ruck and s/he goes to run/pass it; they need to be in possession first off to be fair game.

Swan Curry

1.Does the player that calls a mark have to be the one that kicks/runs it?

2.If yes,what would happen if a player was to call a mark and then get injured,meaning he was unable to restart?

Taco Corp

Swan Curry wrote: »

1.Does the player that calls a mark have to be the one that kicks/runs it?

2.If yes,what would happen if a player was to call a mark and then get injured,meaning he was unable to restart?

1.Yes, and 2. a scrum takes place instead

Losty Dublin

Swan Curry wrote: »

1.Does the player that calls a mark have to be the one that kicks/runs it?

2.If yes,what would happen if a player was to call a mark and then get injured,meaning he was unable to restart?

1) Yes, they have to take the resulting kick. The mark is awarded to the player and not his team

2) If the marker is unable to take the kick a scrum is awarded. If play is halted for an injury then the player will be allowed to kick once time is back on.

Taco Corp

kensutz wrote: »

The ball hasn't left the hindmost foot and it is still in the ruck, so no.

But if the ball hasn't left the ruck and the scrum half has his hands on the ball, is that not an infringement?

Steve Perchance

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

But if the ball hasn't left the ruck and the scrum half has his hands on the ball, is that not an infringement?

Technically, yes.
But if the referee didnt use his discretion the ball wouldnt come out of most rucks. It's become practice to allow the scrum half to dig the ball out with his hands.

Losty Dublin

Steve Perchance wrote: »

Technically, yes.
But if the referee didnt use his discretion the ball wouldnt come out of most rucks. It's become practice to allow the scrum half to dig the ball out with his hands.

To clarify this; if a player who not bound in the ruck can easily reach at the ball and play it then that's fine as it makes the ball available and it allows play to continue. Similarly, if the player at the rear picks up the ball and goes he has unbound himself from the ruck and is legit.

If the ball is unplayable then the referee will award a scrum or penalty as appropriate.

bazzajf

I was at a prominent senior schools semi final earlier this year. Team A scored a try late on and needed the crucial conversion to see out the game. While Team A's out-half was lining up the conversion, 1 or 2 members of Team B under the goalposts tried to put him off by either making very convincing fart noises or executing genuine farts.

This tittilated some members of the crowd in attendance who began giggling and the fart/giggle combination noise appeared to throw the out-half in his conversion attempt which he pulled wide.

My astonishment stemmed from the fact that the referee did nothing as the fart/giggle combination noise was clearly audible to all in attendance. The said fart/giggle combination noise cost Team A the game in my view as this caused the conversion to be missed. Any views on whether the ref should have intervened?

Podge_irl

He should be given another go at the conversion with the players told to shut up (and not allowed to charge it down?). Can't do anything about the crowd though.

preddy

So if a team takes a penalty hits the post player follows up catches the ball and goes over for a try. Try yea?

Wat if the player kicks the ball over to the corner to a winger flying up and catches for a try ? Does the ball have to hit the post/a different player?

FrannoFan

preddy wrote: »

So if a team takes a penalty hits the post player follows up catches the ball and goes over for a try. Try yea?

Wat if the player kicks the ball over to the corner to a winger flying up and catches for a try ? Does the ball have to hit the post/a different player?

AFAIK you need to make a genuine attempt at posts. Guess it would come down to ref interpretation if it was genuine. (i.e can't just clip it off the tee and gather it)

irishbucsfan

preddy wrote: »

So if a team takes a penalty hits the post player follows up catches the ball and goes over for a try. Try yea?

Wat if the player kicks the ball over to the corner to a winger flying up and catches for a try ? Does the ball have to hit the post/a different player?

Ronan OGara asked this exact question once with, I think, Shane Horgan waiting out wide. Ref has to be happy you've made a fair attempt on goal.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ronan OGara asked this exact question once with, I think, Shane Horgan waiting out wide. Ref has to be happy you've made a fair attempt on goal.

Yeah I remember that...did he ask the ref something like ' do I have to go for it' or ' can I deliberately miss it'...??

Tomtom364

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yeah I remember that...did he ask the ref something like ' do I have to go for it' or ' can I deliberately miss it'...??

Remember that alright. Im pretty sure he asked the ref
"How badly can I miss this?"

For Paws

bazzajf wrote: »

I was at a Lions v Australia 1st Test earlier this year. Team A needed the penalty to see out the game. While Team A's out-half was lining up the conversion, 1 or 2 members of Team B under the goalposts tried to put him off by either making very convincing fart noises or executing genuine farts.

This tittilated some members of the crowd in attendance who began giggling and the fart/giggle combination noise appeared to throw the out-half in his attempt which he missed.

My astonishment stemmed from the fact that the referee did nothing as the fart/giggle combination noise was clearly audible to all in attendance. The said fart/giggle combination noise cost Team A the game in my view as this caused the conversion to be missed. Any views on whether the ref should have intervened?

Fixed that for you !

Losty Dublin

preddy wrote: »

So if a team takes a penalty hits the post player follows up catches the ball and goes over for a try. Try yea?

Wat if the player kicks the ball over to the corner to a winger flying up and catches for a try ? Does the ball have to hit the post/a different player?

Scenario one is a try. Scenario two is, as the lads have said, is only a try if a genuine attempt at goal has been taken. I recall Neil Jenkins scoring a try for Wales at home to Romania in the early 90's in such a manner.

Taco Corp

Not sure if this will make sense but I'll give it a go.

In order for a ruck to form "At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground." according to the laws.

After a tackle has taken place and the ball is on the tackled players side (on the ground) what happens if no opposition players have remained in the tackle area? It's not a ruck as there is no contact between opponents, so what is it? And what can the team without the ball do, if anything?

danthefan

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

Not sure if this will make sense but I'll give it a go.

In order for a ruck to form "At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground." according to the laws.

After a tackle has taken place and the ball is on the tackled players side (on the ground) what happens if no opposition players have remained in the tackle area? It's not a ruck as there is no contact between opponents, so what is it? And what can the team without the ball do, if anything?

Yeah I think so. I think the team without the ball can come through from an onside position (i.e. through the gate pretty much) and then do whatever they like, pick up the ball, whatever.

Can remember BOD getting possibly carded for this, there was no ruck formed but he came in on the ball from their side rather than our side, if that makes sense. He was fine to play the ball, but not from that position.

Swiwi.

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah I think so. I think the team without the ball can come through from an onside position (i.e. through the gate pretty much) and then do whatever they like, pick up the ball, whatever.

Can remember BOD getting possibly carded for this, there was no ruck formed but he came in on the ball from their side rather than our side, if that makes sense. He was fine to play the ball, but not from that position.

If it's still a tackle, tackle players can do what they like. Other players arriving must come through the gate. Once the opposition arrive then ruck is formed and no hands allowed.

Taco Corp

danthefan wrote: »

Yeah I think so. I think the team without the ball can come through from an onside position (i.e. through the gate pretty much) and then do whatever they like, pick up the ball, whatever.

Can remember BOD getting possibly carded for this, there was no ruck formed but he came in on the ball from their side rather than our side, if that makes sense. He was fine to play the ball, but not from that position.

yeah, that was against Toulouse in 2011

Swiwi. wrote: »

If it's still a tackle, tackle players can do what they like. Other players arriving must come through the gate. Once the opposition arrive then ruck is formed and no hands allowed.

So what you're both saying is that it's really the choice of the defending team to make contact and if they want to compete for the ball they'll have to go through the gate anyway in which case contact would have to be made and therefore a ruck is formed.

The more I type the more I realise the situation doesn't happen all that often particularly since the use it or lose it rule came into play

Swiwi.

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

yeah, that was against Toulouse in 2011



So what you're both saying is that it's really the choice of the defending team to make contact and if they want to compete for the ball they'll have to go through the gate anyway in which case contact would have to be made and therefore a ruck is formed.

The more I type the more I realise the situation doesn't happen all that often particularly since the use it or lose it rule came into play

No expert, but that's my understanding of the laws.

Losty Dublin

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

Not sure if this will make sense but I'll give it a go.

In order for a ruck to form "At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground." according to the laws.

After a tackle has taken place and the ball is on the tackled players side (on the ground) what happens if no opposition players have remained in the tackle area? It's not a ruck as there is no contact between opponents, so what is it? And what can the team without the ball do, if anything?

This is relevant to your query. It's clear as mud but it should help.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=10&clarlaw=16&clarification=19

DDC1990

Whats the story with Referee's calling "use it!" at the back of a moving scrum?

The Argentinian "referee" in the Ireland v USA game this year kept doing it, even though Ireland were driving forwards, and last night, the Scottish Referee called it on Munster, even though they were bulldozing forward, and Dragons had all broken off the scrum, and were all over the shop.

Is it part of the use it in 5 seconds rule, or is it a rule that had never been enforced before.

I understand it in the case of a static scrum, but when a team is rumbling forward it seems stupid!

Swiwi.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Whats the story with Referee's calling "use it!" at the back of a moving scrum?

The Argentinian "referee" in the Ireland v USA game this year kept doing it, even though Ireland were driving forwards, and last night, the Scottish Referee called it on Munster, even though they were bulldozing forward, and Dragons had all broken off the scrum, and were all over the shop.

Is it part of the use it in 5 seconds rule, or is it a rule that had never been enforced before.

I understand it in the case of a static scrum, but when a team is rumbling forward it seems stupid!

There is no law, AKAIK, that the 5s rule applies to the scrum. Often refs say "use it" to speed the game up, but if the ball doesn't come out they tend to award a reset scrum to the same side.

For Paws

DDC1990 wrote: »

Whats the story with Referee's calling "use it!" at the back of a moving scrum?

The Argentinian "referee" in the Ireland v USA game this year kept doing it, even though Ireland were driving forwards, and last night, the Scottish Referee called it on Munster, even though they were bulldozing forward, and Dragons had all broken off the scrum, and were all over the shop.

Is it part of the use it in 5 seconds rule, or is it a rule that had never been enforced before.

I understand it in the case of a static scrum, but when a team is rumbling forward it seems stupid!

If any players' bind has been broken, the scrum is over, even if the ball is at the feet of the number 8 and the 'scrum' is moving forward.
The referee call to 'use it' is a warning that the scrum phase has ended and that play must be continued by playing the ball. If the side in possession fail to 'use it' within 5 seconds the referee is at liberty to award a scrum to the other side or even worse, penalise the side in possession for obstruction.

Shelflife

For Paws wrote: »

If any players' bind has been broken, the scrum is over, even if the ball is at the feet of the number 8 and the 'scrum' is moving forward.
The referee call to 'use it' is a warning that the scrum phase has ended and that play must be continued by playing the ball. If the side in possession fail to 'use it' within 5 seconds the referee is at liberty to award a scrum to the other side or even worse, penalise the side in possession for obstruction.

If a player breaks his bind at a scrum its a penalty.

Losty Dublin

Shelflife wrote: »

If a player breaks his bind at a scrum its a penalty.

A back row player may break his bind to pick up and play a ball, just in case some smart arse says something

For Paws

Shelflife wrote: »

If a player breaks his bind at a scrum its a penalty.

Precisely, (a player in the side who do not have possession following the put in at the scrum breaks his bind) but the referee is free to allow advantage to the side in possession - as long as they play the ball when instructed to do so.