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    #1712
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Sounds like it.

    But it seems weird that the referee allowed aerial ping pong after a perceived foul. I guess there was no advantage called?


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    #1713
    DDC1990
    Registered Users Posts: 10,363 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    Referee didn't see it, TJ flagged it then put the flag down. Ref was having problems with his mic and headset so possibly couldn't get the communication from the TJ to know there was foul play.

    As soon as there was a stoppage the TJ let him know and he gave the penalty.

    I'd imagine the play would be called back for the penalty even if Australia scored, as it would have been deemed foul play in the lead up to scoring a try, regardless of how many phases went between the plays.


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    #1714
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    DDC1990 wrote: »

    I'd imagine the play would be called back for the penalty even if Australia scored, as it would have been deemed foul play in the lead up to scoring a try, regardless of how many phases went between the plays.

    This is correct. That said, it is subject to the referee and assistant referee agreeing that the foul play warrants it being dealt with. That is to say, the flagged offence may well be against the defending team and the referee decides that a word in the ear will suffice.


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    #1715
    daveharnett
    Registered Users Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭daveharnett


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Just curious, if you're taking a penalty to touch. Is there anything stopping you having a guy waiting in the area you're going to kick to, and you kick it it to him and he takes a quick line out. (so does he have to be onside, or does that requirement go away the second the ball goes out of play)
    The receiver falls foul of the 10m offside law while the ball is in flight (there's no offside before or after since the ball is dead. Doubt you'd get away with it, it's pretty obviously against the intent of the law.


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    #1716
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    daveharnett wrote: »
    The receiver falls foul of the 10m offside law while the ball is in flight (there's no offside before or after since the ball is dead. Doubt you'd get away with it, it's pretty obviously against the intent of the law.

    A player cannot leave the field of play during a game without the permission of the referee. This prevents a player from loitering off the field and entering to take a quick throw. Equally, a player in a game with a rolling sub arrangement can't take a line out in such a circumstance as he needs a referee's permission to join the game. As a non player, he'd also render the ball unplayable for a quick line out.

    In both circumstances, I can see a yellow mist emerging if it is tried.

    Edit; I am assuming that the player is off the field. Davehartnett has addressed a player who is on the field of play.


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    #1717
    armchaircoach
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭armchaircoach


    Having watched end on Rugby in the rds for a few years its not at all uncommon to see wingers loitering on or over the touchline when a set piece/penalty is being readied. Standing off the pitch, pretending to tie shoelaces, trying not to be noticed while waiting for a crossfield kick. Are these guys in beach of the laws if they step off the pitch?


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    #1718
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    armchaircoach wrote: »
    Having watched end on Rugby in the rds for a few years its not at all uncommon to see wingers loitering on or over the touchline when a set piece/penalty is being readied. Standing off the pitch, pretending to tie shoelaces, trying not to be noticed while waiting for a crossfield kick. Are these guys in beach of the laws if they step off the pitch?

    Nope, so long as they don't effect play from an offside position I think they're fine.


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    #1719
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    armchaircoach wrote: »
    Having watched end on Rugby in the rds for a few years its not at all uncommon to see wingers loitering on or over the touchline when a set piece/penalty is being readied. Standing off the pitch, pretending to tie shoelaces, trying not to be noticed while waiting for a crossfield kick. Are these guys in beach of the laws if they step off the pitch?

    You may find that a player is out of the playing area for a moment or two or if play has stopped but not while play continues. A player may well nip out of play whilst running to get to the ball but the laws relating to offside, grounding and touch still apply to them. When play has stopped it is a different matter altogether.

    Also, we need to allow that materiality also comes into play at an infringement. Joining and leaving the field of play in a tactical attempt is approaching foul play and will be punished as required.


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    #1720
    Swiwi.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,415 ✭✭✭Swiwi.


    Sorry if this has been asked before, but if a team kicks the ball, and players are in front of the ball, but the ball goes into touch, can the formerly offside players move towards the lineout (and possibly prevent a quick throw) or do they need to wait until put back onside?


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    #1721
    Taco Corp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭Taco Corp


    Swiwi. wrote: »
    Sorry if this has been asked before, but if a team kicks the ball, and players are in front of the ball, but the ball goes into touch, can the formerly offside players move towards the lineout (and possibly prevent a quick throw) or do they need to wait until put back onside?

    interesting one. I'd imagine they'd still be considered offside and therefore can't interfere with play unless put back onside. open to correction though


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    #1722
    FrPhelimYoung
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭FrPhelimYoung


    Captain_Hindsight wrote: »
    interesting one. I'd imagine they'd still be considered offside and therefore can't interfere with play unless put back onside. open to correction though

    Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".


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    #1723
    FrPhelimYoung
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭FrPhelimYoung


    At least I hope I'm right. It's what I've told a few of the fatties I coach.


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    #1724
    Taco Corp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,718 ✭✭✭Taco Corp


    FrPhelimYoung wrote: »
    Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".
    I would have thought it fell under the loitering law as the offside player is getting the advantage of preventing a quick throw.


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    #1725
    Steve Perchance
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭Steve Perchance


    Usually at least one player is chasing from an onside position in case touch isn't made though - he puts the fatties back onside, they can stop the quick lineout, no problems :)


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    #1726
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    FrPhelimYoung wrote: »
    Ball is out of play. No offside for those in front of the kicker. The quick Lineout in effect will be restarting play from the "set piece".

    A quick line out still has offside lines applicable to it, Father; the fact that it's taken quick won't change this fact. If the players are in an offside position at the commencement of the line out then they still need to retreat until they are back onside. Provided they don't interfere with the quick line out, aren't still offside and/or loitering with intent then they should be fine.

    Just for the crack, have a look at this quick line out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bxGZHpcmAo


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    #1727
    Journeyman_1
    Registered Users Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Journeyman_1


    That was amazing, very clever from trinh-duc.


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    #1728
    BeardySi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,707 ✭✭✭BeardySi


    Bloody hell, that was quick thinking!


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    #1729
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    That's what most wingers try and do, it's just SF were completely caught nap with the whole team trying to chase.


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    #1730
    shoutman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

    Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

    The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!


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    #1731
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    shoutman wrote: »
    I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

    Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

    The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

    You can't 'un-blow' a whistle.
    You can't 'un-raise' a flag.
    Even if the referee/touch judge immediately realises that they blew/signalled in error, play has to stop.
    You can't say "Oh, I'm sorry. Ignore that whistle/signal and play on." If you did, it would be unfair to any player who heard/saw the signal and stopped what they were doing.

    That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)


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    #1732
    Philo Beddoe
    Registered Users Posts: 560 ✭✭✭Philo Beddoe


    shoutman wrote: »
    I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

    Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

    The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!

    You mean he had one foot in touch and kicked a loose ball with the other? If that was the case then I'd think it was something similar to a player with a foot in touch (or indeed standing in touch) catching a ball kicked to him by the opposition - line-out to his team.


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    #1733
    cython
    Registered Users Posts: 4,766 ✭✭✭cython


    shoutman wrote: »
    I was running line for a J4 match recently (was supporting one of the teams, i'm not trained up.)

    Player had one foot in touch and kicked the ball which was still in play. I put the flag up and signalled that he was in touch and gave a throw in to the opposition.

    The ref told me I was incorrect but went with my decision - I'm confused!
    If the player had a foot in touch and kicked the ball, then the ball ought to be regarded as being in touch as well. However, who last touched the ball before the player with a foot in touch? If it was his own team, then it's a line out to the opposition, but if the ball was loose from the other team (e.g. following a grubber or something) then it is still a line out,but to the player's own team.


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    #1734
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    locum-motion wrote: »
    You can't 'un-blow' a whistle.
    You can't 'un-raise' a flag.
    Even if the referee/touch judge immediately realises that they blew/signalled in error, play has to stop.
    You can't say "Oh, I'm sorry. Ignore that whistle/signal and play on." If you did, it would be unfair to any player who heard/saw the signal and stopped what they were doing.

    That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)

    Referees may and occasionally will overrule a touch judges call. In practice it would need to be a blatantly wrong call for him to do so it almost never happens; if anything the referee will give them every benefit of the doubt, even if they err on a call.

    As for un-blowing, well..... :pac:


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    #1735
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Referees may and occasionally will overrule a touch judges call. In practice it would need to be a blatantly wrong call for him to do so it almost never happens; if anything the referee will give them every benefit of the doubt, even if they err on a call.

    As for un-blowing, well..... :pac:

    As to your first paragraph: a referee absolutely may overrule a touch judge/assistant referee, but if they were to do so it would be "No, it's a white throw, not a black throw." It would NOT be "Play on". Or, at least, it shouldn't be.

    As to your second paragraph: Sorry, but do you mean to imply that you can un-blow a whistle?


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    #1736
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    If the ball was in play and the player kicked it while he was in touch its play on as he did not take possession of the ball.

    I would have clarified this with the touch judge and awarded a scrum to the kickers team .


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    #1737
    DDC1990
    Registered Users Posts: 10,363 ✭✭✭✭DDC1990


    I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.

    Just like catching the ball with your foot over the line.

    If team A kicked/touched the ball last I would give a lineout to team B.


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    #1738
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,609 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    DDC1990 wrote: »
    I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.
    .

    This is true. Happened to Ojo (I thinj) for London Irish a good few seasons back.


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    #1739
    rje66
    Registered Users Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭rje66


    DDC1990 wrote: »
    I'd disagree, I'd rule that as soon as the player touches the ball, with his foot in touch the ball has then theoretically gone out of play.

    Just like catching the ball with your foot over the line.

    If team A kicked/touched the ball last I would give a lineout to team B.


    Law 19 Touch Definition
    A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.


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    #1740
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    rje66 wrote: »
    Law 19 Touch Definition
    A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

    That's very interesting.

    So technically I could stand OUT of touch, and knock the ball back into touch so long as the ball doesn't cross the line.

    ... Devin Toner should be standing on the line for penalties. :P


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    #1741
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    rje66 wrote: »
    Law 19 Touch Definition
    A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline. The plane of the touchline is the vertical space rising immediately above the touchline.

    So, according to the above, what I said (reproduced below) is wrong. I stand corrected. Thank you.
    locum-motion wrote: »
    ...

    That said, if a player who had a foot in touch - or even if it was just his toe touching the line - made contact with the ball, then you were correct to signal a lineout. This applies even if the ball itself wasn't within a yard of the line. (Or, in the case of the player being Devin Toner, seventeen yards!)


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