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Laws Question? Ask here!

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    #1742
    rje66
    Registered Users Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭rje66


    .ak wrote: »
    That's very interesting.

    So technically I could stand OUT of touch, and knock the ball back into touch so long as the ball doesn't cross the line.

    ... Devin Toner should be standing on the line for penalties. :P

    Yes .touch laws in union are overly complicated and at times confusing and contradictory. A few simple law changes , player past plane of touch touches ball anywhere its out. Ball past plane of touch its out(EXCEPTwhen wind blows it back in)


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    #1743
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,488 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    rje66 wrote: »
    Yes .touch laws in union are overly complicated and at times confusing and contradictory. A few simple law changes , player past plane of touch touches ball anywhere its out. Ball past plane of touch its out(EXCEPTwhen wind blows it back in)

    are you suggesting that? nah, too much fun watching players jump to try to salvage penalty kicks :)


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    #1744
    redmca2
    Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭redmca2


    Question on the advantage rule:

    Scenario 1:
    A player knocks the ball on, the opposition have advantage and from there they go on to score a try.

    Scenario 2:
    In a HC match today (Harlequins v Racing I think), an attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and was touched down by a defender. The ref awarded a 5 metre scrum to the defending team, but why did he not award a 22 drop out? (I was told by a ref that to award a 22 in such an instance was too much of an advantage to give. )

    Can anyone explain the logic in this.


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    #1745
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Because there is a specific law that deals with this scenario 22.13, they could if they wanted run the ball but to ground it immediately means they have effectively declined advantage.


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    #1746
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    22.13 says (my emphasis)
    If an attacking player commits an infringement in in-goal, for which the sanction is a scrum, for example, a knock-on, play is restarted with a 5-metre scrum. The scrum is formed in line with the place of the infringement and the defending team throws in the ball.

    The questioner specifically said that the ball crossed the line after the KO, so therefore 22.13 cannot apply.


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    #1747
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    My understanding of the law is that if it ends up in the end goal, then that law applies.

    Making a ball dead isn't playing advantage.


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    #1748
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Shelflife wrote: »
    My understanding of the law is that if it ends up in the end goal, then that law applies.

    Making a ball dead isn't playing advantage.


    I quoted what the actual wording of the law says. The law is quite clear, and it cannot apply to infringements that occur anywhere except in the in-goal area.

    I don't think it really matters what your "understanding of the law" is!


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    #1749
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Well if I'm the ref my "understanding of the law" is the only thing that matters.

    6 A 4 a The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match.

    To back up my earlier "understanding"

    12.1.(c)
    Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.


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    #1750
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    So I was right. 22.13 does NOT apply!


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    #1751
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    locum-motion wrote: »
    So I was right. 22.13 does NOT apply!

    Yes go you !!!

    Maybe next time you could actually help answer the question rather than snottily pick holes in the answers of those that are trying to help.


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    #1752
    locum-motion
    Registered Users Posts: 5,143 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Maybe next time you could cite the right law!


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    #1753
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Shelflife wrote: »
    Well if I'm the ref my "understanding of the law" is the only thing that matters.

    6 A 4 a The referee is the sole judge of fact and of law during a match.

    To back up my earlier "understanding"

    12.1.(c)
    Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

    In normal play, grounding the ball "in goal" renders the ball dead. Making a ball dead isn't advantage, as you have said; it needs to be alive for advantage to exist :)


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    #1754
    redmca2
    Registered Users Posts: 287 ✭✭redmca2


    Shelflife wrote: »
    12.1.(c)
    Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

    I am going to refine my original query:
    Previously:"an attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and was touched down by a defender. The ref awarded a 5 metre scrum to the defending team, but why did he not award a 22 drop out?"

    New question:
    An attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and then went dead. What is the ref's ruling now?? Same as if an attacker kicked the ball dead? 22 drop out?


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    #1755
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    redmca2 wrote: »
    I am going to refine my original query:
    Previously:"an attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and was touched down by a defender. The ref awarded a 5 metre scrum to the defending team, but why did he not award a 22 drop out?"

    New question:
    An attacker knocked the ball on close to the try line, the ball crossed the line and then went dead. What is the ref's ruling now?? Same as if an attacker kicked the ball dead? 22 drop out?

    Law 12 covers the knock on eventuality and 22.7 the kick eventuality.

    http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=12.1

    The IRB's definition here is crucial so let us consider what they say that makes a ball "Dead".

    http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?domain=2#let8

    The ball is out of play. This happens when the ball has gone outside the playing area and remained there, or when the referee has blown the whistle to indicate a stoppage in play, or when a conversion kick has been taken.


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    #1756
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Posted this in the Munster v Scarlets thread but no one commented. Maybe will have more luck here

    Nigel gave a penalty against a Munster player for diving on the ball on the ground as it was "coming out of the ruck, you can't do that". Now my understanding of the situation is that the ball was either in the ruck in which case it wasn't playable or it had left the ruck in which case it was playable.

    I've never heard of a third state of the ball 'coming out'


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    #1757
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Posted this in the Munster v Scarlets thread but no one commented. Maybe will have more luck here

    Nigel gave a penalty against a Munster player for diving on the ball on the ground as it was "coming out of the ruck, you can't do that". Now my understanding of the situation is that the ball was either in the ruck in which case it wasn't playable or it had left the ruck in which case it was playable.

    I've never heard of a third state of the ball 'coming out'

    Didn't see it myself, but AFAIK once the ball pops out of the controlled area of the ruck you can do whatever you want with it.


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    #1758
    19543261
    Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    .ak wrote: »
    Didn't see it myself, but AFAIK once the ball pops out of the controlled area of the ruck you can do whatever you want with it.

    But when the ref says ball playable after rucking, I've never seen a player dive on it. Then he would just be forming another ruck. No matter where the ball is, it must be still part of the rucking phase.


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    #1759
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Posted this in the Munster v Scarlets thread but no one commented. Maybe will have more luck here

    Nigel gave a penalty against a Munster player for diving on the ball on the ground as it was "coming out of the ruck, you can't do that". Now my understanding of the situation is that the ball was either in the ruck in which case it wasn't playable or it had left the ruck in which case it was playable.

    I've never heard of a third state of the ball 'coming out'

    If you can give the time of when this happened then we can have a look at it. A a general point you cannot play the ball on the ground and you cannot stop a ball from leaving a ruck; maybe this is what Owens the Ref saw happen.


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    #1760
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    19543261 wrote: »
    But when the ref says ball playable after rucking, I've never seen a player dive on it. Then he would just be forming another ruck. No matter where the ball is, it must be still part of the rucking phase.

    "A ruck is formed when at least one player from each side bind onto each other with the ball on the ground between them" So there is no ruck


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    #1761
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    If you can give the time of when this happened then we can have a look at it. A a general point you cannot play the ball on the ground and you cannot stop a ball from leaving a ruck; maybe this is what Owens the Ref saw happen.

    Kicked missed at 31 according to the ultimate rugby app. If you're on TG4.ie it's part 3 at 36 minutes , 28 minutes according to the on screen clock


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    #1762
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    16.4.e

    A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck . Sanction pen kick

    Its to stop constant pile ups at the ruck area.


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    #1763
    19543261
    Registered Users Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭19543261


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    "A ruck is formed when at least one player from each side bind onto each other with the ball on the ground between them" So there is no ruck

    Sorry, by forming another ruck I meant it will become one, not it's one itself.


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    #1764
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Kicked missed at 31 according to the ultimate rugby app. If you're on TG4.ie it's part 3 at 36 minutes , 28 minutes according to the on screen clock

    Just watched it on the player and it's just as Owens called it; the Munster player was pinged for being on the ground and playing the ball.


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    #1765
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    chupacabra wrote: »
    haha no, but the prospect of such a thing is quite hilarious :pac:

    So what would happen next by the rules if you did? Should we try this next time we have a lead against the All Blacks?


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    #1766
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    Two things about the lineout:

    1. Why don't non-hookers do the odd throw? You could have a flanker etc. with a brilliant throw.

    2. The linesman or other official should carry a tape to show where the two teams have to stand and where the hooker has to stand. Ideally, it could be linked to TV technology to ensure correct spacing and throwing. Sometimes, I see a hooker throwing straight, but over his own team because he has lined up almost with them.


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    #1767
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,106 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    Two things about the lineout:

    1. Why don't non-hookers do the odd throw? You could have a flanker etc. with a brilliant throw.

    2. The linesman or other official should carry a tape to show where the two teams have to stand and where the hooker has to stand. Ideally, it could be linked to TV technology to ensure correct spacing and throwing. Sometimes, I see a hooker throwing straight, but over his own team because he has lined up almost with them.

    1) They occasionally do but these days it's a given duty for a hooker to throw into the line out. In aulden days, the wingers threw the ball in.

    2) It's the referees job to ensure that the line out takes places correctly on or behind the line of touch. Generally a mark is made to show there touch is but it's not always the case that this happens. At a line out, a gap of 1 metre is the minimum required; unless you are close up then it may look like less has been given by each team.


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    #1768
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ardillaun wrote: »
    Two things about the lineout:

    1. Why don't non-hookers do the odd throw? You could have a flanker etc. with a brilliant throw.

    2. The linesman or other official should carry a tape to show where the two teams have to stand and where the hooker has to stand. Ideally, it could be linked to TV technology to ensure correct spacing and throwing. Sometimes, I see a hooker throwing straight, but over his own team because he has lined up almost with them.

    #1 is just a process of elimination.

    At times you want to move quickly off your lineout so you don't want to have a back throwing the ball in as they will need to run the ball.

    Second row are generally tall so they'll jump.

    Props will lift as they are too heavy to be lifted, plus they're strong enough to lift.

    Back row will lift too, sometimes they may jump but they'll be there to provide support around the area of the lineout.

    Hooker is the only one left. Too small usually to jump. The least useful of the forwards to be on the pitch during a lineout.

    For #2 - the gap always closes a bit whenever the players start to move.


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    #1769
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,555 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    awec wrote: »
    #1 is just a process of elimination.

    Hooker is the only one left. Too small usually to jump. The least useful of the forwards to be on the pitch during a lineout.

    For #2 - the gap always closes a bit whenever the players start to move.

    That makes sense alright but what options does a team have when a hooker's throws go off completely? We've seen this with Ireland. Imagine if one of the forwards was a good basketball player and had a real flair for it?

    It's more the positioning of the thrower that occasionally annoys me. Shouldn't they be equidistant between the lines, and at least 0.5 m from their own?


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    #1770
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,488 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Sean o Brien has thrown for Ireland


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    #1771
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭crisco10


    Shelflife wrote: »
    16.4.e

    A player must not fall on or over the ball as it is coming out of a ruck . Sanction pen kick

    Its to stop constant pile ups at the ruck area.

    Clancy pinged Tom Denton for this in the Connacht game and I was very confused. Thanks for clearing it up!


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