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Question about the 'ruck/not ruck/tackle/not tackle/player not held' in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUoiPaXvhNY#t=203

White player retrieves the ball, goes to ground, Green player attempts to strip the ball, White player tries to stand up, 3rd player(White) then tackles/rucks Green player off of the 'attempting to stand' player who now has no issue in standing and breaking free.

Are there multiple penalty offences here?

Is it - Once player hits the deck he needs to release the ball?

Also, what's the legality of the player clearing out the Irish player who's attempting to strip the ball (if you deem that it isn't a ruck, so that the player with the ball can hold possession and stand up). Is that not tackling a player without the ball?

Confused by how it managed to pan out.

sydthebeat

assume your talking about 3:28 in that clip

there doesnt appear to be any tackle on white 11 at any stage.
firstly hes going down on a kick through, green player stands over him and doesnt impair him from getting up (which would have been a penalty to white)... 11 then slips himself onto his knees before standing back up under green 6's failed tackle.

no problems at all in my eyes.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

assume your talking about 3:28 in that clip

there doesnt appear to be any tackle on white 11 at any stage.
firstly hes going down on a kick through, green player stands over him and doesnt impair him from getting up (which would have been a penalty to white)... 11 then slips himself onto his knees before standing back up under green 6's failed tackle.

no problems at all in my eyes.

(clip should load at the correct time, 3:25 ish yeah)
What about White 12's play though? Tackling a player without the ball?

Basically, I think it either has to be a ruck, and White 11 needs to release (which means that White 12's play is fine). White 11 doesn't release though - penalty Green.

Or it isn't a ruck, and then White 12 is tackling a player without the ball. Penalty Green

sydthebeat

Law 14 Ball on the ground – no tackle.
Should the ball carrier voluntarily go to ground without a tackle being made opponents are permitted to contest possession provided that they are on their feet and that a ruck has not already formed.


i suppose the ref viewed it as a ruck had formed when the green player wrestled for possession... however no tackle was made therefore white doesnt have to release. therefore white 12 is within rights to counter ruck.

You have to release if a ruck has formed surely!?

Hands in the ruck so? I earnestly can't see how the passage of play makes any sense (other than things being missed).

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

Hands in the ruck so? I earnestly can't see how the passage of play makes any sense (other than things being missed).

You have to release if a ruck has formed surely!?

im no ref so......ill let one of the refs here give their opinion

Losty Dublin

White went down, got up with the ball and made away in possession; it's play on as there is no ball on the ground to even begin to form a ruck here. The other two players didn't impede him from getting up or indeed any other oncoming player so there's no issue with them in this case.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

White went down, got up with the ball and made away in possession; it's play on as there is no ball on the ground to even begin to form a ruck here. The other two players didn't impede him from getting up or indeed any other oncoming player so there's no issue with them in this case.

White 12 clears out Green 'tackler' impeding him from making/completing the tackle.

Tackle without the ball in that case no?

Losty Dublin

Deleted User wrote: »

White 12 clears out Green 'tackler' impeding him from making/completing the tackle.

Tackle without the ball in that case no?

There was no tackler here to impede; White 11 gained possession from a loose ball, stood up quickly and played on. Had Green and White 12 "bound" over the ball before 11 had a chance to stand up it would have been a ruck; there is no real crime by either player as such.

What is White 12 and Green's "interaction" called here then?

Losty Dublin

Deleted User wrote: »

What is White 12 and Green's "interaction" called here then?

Have they formed a ruck? No, the ball is not on the ground.

Are they playing the ball? No, 11 went to ground, gained possession and is playing the ball

Have they formed a maul? No, they aren't trying to bind around the ball carrier.

Did they prevnt 11 from getting up? No.

Are they interfering with play? No.

Is is possible that they anticipated a ruck or maul? Yes but the ball has since moved on so that ends that instance.

Are they engaged in foul play? No.

In which case it's play on; there isn't any offence here

sydthebeat

Deleted User wrote: »

What is White 12 and Green's "interaction" called here then?

it doesnt have to be either a tackle or a ruck for players to come together....

Taco Corp

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Have they formed a ruck? No, the ball is not on the ground.

Are they playing the ball? No, 11 went to ground, gained possession and is playing the ball

Have they formed a maul? No, they aren't trying to bind around the ball carrier.

Did they prevnt 11 from getting up? No.

Are they interfering with play? No.

Is is possible that they anticipated a ruck or maul? Yes but the ball has since moved on so that ends that instance.

Are they engaged in foul play? No.

In which case it's play on; there isn't any offence here

just on the bolded part...

my understanding is that arriving green player doesn't have to let the white player get up. but green must stay on his feet to compete for the ball. if green had competed successfully and white were to hold on to the ball and not release it would have been penalty green.
it's one of the things commentators on tv get wrong a lot ( I think, so correct me if I'm wrong!)

Losty Dublin

Captain_Hindsight wrote: »

just on the bolded part...

my understanding is that arriving green player doesn't have to let the white player get up. but green must stay on his feet to compete for the ball. if green had competed successfully and white were to hold on to the ball and not release it would have been penalty green.
it's one of the things commentators on tv get wrong a lot ( I think, so correct me if I'm wrong!)

Once the oncoming player stays on their feet and doesn't play the player on the ground then they are fine to go for the ball. The player on the ground can't be prevented from getting to his feet; Law 14 covers this.

locum-motion

Agreed, there is no tackle here.

W11 hit the ground, but wasn't tackled. He must get up immediately or else release/place/pass the ball.

Arriving green player (can't make out his number, so I'm just gonna refer to him as 'G') is not allowed prevent W11 from getting up, but must wait either
A: for W11 to get up, so he can then tackle him or
B: for W11 to release/place/pass the ball, so he can then pick it up or tackle the man who got the pass.

However, G did NOT stand clear of W11. He did stand over him, did make contact and was inhibiting W11's ability to get up - Play on, indicating a Penalty advantage to white.

W12 then arrived. No ruck, maul or tackle had occurred, it was still 'open play'. He cleared out G, but just because G was in the wrong at the time, it doesn't give W12 the right to tackle a man without the ball. Penalty against W12 - This ends White's advantage; they cannot continue to score the try having committed a penalty offence themselves - blow the whistle - go back to the first penalty against Green.

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

W12 then arrived. No ruck, maul or tackle had occurred, it was still 'open play'. He cleared out G, but just because G was in the wrong at the time, it doesn't give W12 the right to tackle a man without the ball. Penalty against W12 - This ends White's advantage; they cannot continue to score the try having committed a penalty offence themselves - blow the whistle - go back to the first penalty against Green.

Commit a free or penalty offence while availing of advantage and you will lose said advantage. Presumably you mean it's a green penalty

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Commit a free or penalty offence while availing of advantage and you will lose said advantage. Presumably you mean it's a green penalty

If it's a scrum advantage; Yes, you lose it for committing a penalty offence.
Or if it's a penalty advantage, and you commit a serious act of foul play, then that would cost you your advantage too.
But if the two offences are similar in seriousness, then you go back to the first one.

That's my understanding, anyway. I could be wrong, though. And if I am, then; Yes, Green penalty.

danthefan

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Commit a free or penalty offence while availing of advantage and you will lose said advantage. Presumably you mean it's a green penalty

As stated above, I'd say that's completely up to the ref depending on the offence. If advantage is being played and you go through a phase and hold on at the next ruck, the ref is going to give you the penalty and not take away the advantage.

Steve Perchance

locum-motion wrote: »

Agreed, there is no tackle here.

W11 hit the ground, but wasn't tackled. He must get up immediately or else release/place/pass the ball.

Arriving green player (can't make out his number, so I'm just gonna refer to him as 'G') is not allowed prevent W11 from getting up, but must wait either
A: for W11 to get up, so he can then tackle him or
B: for W11 to release/place/pass the ball, so he can then pick it up or tackle the man who got the pass.

However, G did NOT stand clear of W11. He did stand over him, did make contact and was inhibiting W11's ability to get up - Play on, indicating a Penalty advantage to white.

The Green player does not have to let the white player get up. He can contest for the ball immediately as long as he stays on his feet. Law 14.2 says:

14.2 Players on their feet
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

These are the only offences he can commit here. White must either stand up with the ball, release the ball or pass the ball immediately. If he can't stand up because the opponent is contesting for the ball, then he must exercise one of the other options or concede a penalty. Again, there isn't a law to say that he has to be allowed stand up any more than there is one to say he can't be prevented from passing by standing between him and a teammate.

A player on his feet trying to play the ball in this situation is not committing an offence.

locum-motion

Sorry, yes, you're right. I had a bit of a rush of blood to the head.

Steve Perchance wrote: »

The Green player does not have to let the white player get up. He can contest for the ball immediately as long as he stays on his feet. Law 14.2 says:

14.2 Players on their feet
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

These are the only offences he can commit here. White must either stand up with the ball, release the ball or pass the ball immediately. If he can't stand up because the opponent is contesting for the ball, then he must exercise one of the other options or concede a penalty. Again, there isn't a law to say that he has to be allowed stand up any more than there is one to say he can't be prevented from passing by standing between him and a teammate.

A player on his feet trying to play the ball in this situation is not committing an offence.

Steve Perchance

Steve Perchance wrote: »

The Green player does not have to let the white player get up. He can contest for the ball immediately as long as he stays on his feet. Law 14.2 says:

14.2 Players on their feet
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

These are the only offences he can commit here. White must either stand up with the ball, release the ball or pass the ball immediately. If he can't stand up because the opponent is contesting for the ball, then he must exercise one of the other options or concede a penalty. Again, there isn't a law to say that he has to be allowed stand up any more than there is one to say he can't be prevented from passing by standing between him and a teammate.

A player on his feet trying to play the ball in this situation is not committing an offence.

So I guess my question is "Is he allowed to be tackled while trying to play the ball?".

If Yes - Does the "Tackle" constitute forming a ruck and if so should initial White player be pinged for holding on.

If No - Penalty Green?

Still can't quite figure out how the passage of play 'should' be handled.

Steve Perchance

Deleted User wrote: »

So I guess my question is "Is he allowed to be tackled while trying to play the ball?".

If Yes - Does the "Tackle" constitute forming a ruck and if so should initial White player be pinged for holding on.

If No - Penalty Green?

Still can't quite figure out how the passage of play 'should' be handled.

The other defending player, the one on his feet, is entitled to form a ruck by engaging the green player. He can't 'tackle' him but he can ruck over the ball/clear out the player.

16.1 Forming a ruck
(a) Where can a ruck take place. A ruck can take place only in the field of play.
(b) How can a ruck form. Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball must be on the ground. If the ball is off the ground for any reason, the ruck is not formed.

There's nothing to say that a tackle has to happen before a ruck can be formed.

In these circumstance, I'd say it's penalty green - if he is deemed to have released the ball (if only for a second), then a ruck formed and he can't play it again (he's offside). If he didn't release the ball, it's a penalty for failing to do so, as he didn't get up or release or pass the ball 'immediately'. Even if Green is deemed to have tackled a man without the ball (because the ball is off the ground and a ruck can't form, therefore he can't touch him), the first offence is white's, so it's still a penalty to green.

GiftofGab

Quick question - which I'm mostly sure of the answer.

At a ruck - when scrum half touches the ball - is the ball only considered 'out' when it leaves the hind feet or when the scrum half touches the ball?

The Lost Sheep

GiftofGab wrote: »

Quick question - which I'm mostly sure of the answer.

At a ruck - when scrum half touches the ball - is the ball only considered 'out' when it leaves the hind feet or when the scrum half touches the ball?

The ball is only considered out when the ball is out of the ruck. Hands on by any player doesn't mean you can attempt to tackle them

awec

GiftofGab wrote: »

Quick question - which I'm mostly sure of the answer.

At a ruck - when scrum half touches the ball - is the ball only considered 'out' when it leaves the hind feet or when the scrum half touches the ball?

When it moves past the hind foot (i.e. lifted out to play it).

awec

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The ball is only considered out when the ball is out of the ruck. Hands on by any player doesn't mean you can attempt to tackle them

Am I right in thinking that once the scrum half puts his hands on it he can't set it down again?

I.e. once he has hands on he must play it?

phog

awec wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that once the scrum half puts his hands on it he can't set it down again?

I.e. once he has hands on he must play it?

Yes and he can't dummy a move either

.ak

Yes, that's correct.

Different refs interpret it differently, but it'd take a pretty mean ref to say once the hands are on the ball that the scrummie is fair game.

Having said that I've seen guys who take an age to get the ball out with their hands on the ball, and the ref will say the ball is out at that point.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

Am I right in thinking that once the scrum half puts his hands on it he can't set it down again?

I.e. once he has hands on he must play it?

Yes. Once hands are on they must play the ball. They cant dummy a pass and if they do its a penalty against them

rje66

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes. Once hands are on they must play the ball. They cant dummy a pass and if they do its a penalty against them

I agree with the dummy but hands on the ball is not a green light for defending players to pile in. Once its off the ground and being delivered, it is then open season for scrum halves:D

even if a SH has hands on the ball at back of ruck and is having a look around for best options he only has 5 seconds , not a lot of time really!!!