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Interested Observer

Swiwi. wrote: »

Me too! But then I never quite got to international level. I remember the transition period when the kicker could choose sand or the new-fangled kicking tees. Those were the carefree days of amateurism.

There was a Saffer OH... Andre Pretorius maybe (?) who kept using sand once basically everyone else had moved over to using a tee.

shoutman

Playing in a match on saturday which ended in farcical fashion.

Last play of the game was called for by the referee and after a couple of phases he stopped play as a player was down injured. He then blew the final whistle as he said time was up... Now clearly this is incorrect.

Assume he should just restart play with a scrum to the team that has the ball?

Tim Robbins

shoutman wrote: »

Playing in a match on saturday which ended in farcical fashion.

Last play of the game was called for by the referee and after a couple of phases he stopped play as a player was down injured. He then blew the final whistle as he said time was up... Now clearly this is incorrect.

Assume he should just restart play with a scrum to the team that has the ball?

I think the ref could have been technically correct:

Law 5.7
(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

In general it is a bad idea for ref's to call last play. You can end up in all sorts of unwanted scenarios. For example, say a team score a try and after it is scored a player from the team that just conceded the try calls the ref a bollix. Then, it is a penalty to the team that just scored after they have taken the conversion so it could be a ten point swing. Or even madder, the team that gets the penalty could tap it run from the half way and score. In which case, you could have a 14 point swing.

Another example is you call last play and the defending team go all out for an intercept - is a ref going to change their opinion whether it is a deliberate knock on (in which case penalty is awarded) or an accidental one (in which case it is hit the showers)?

The Lost Sheep

shoutman wrote: »

Playing in a match on saturday which ended in farcical fashion.

Last play of the game was called for by the referee and after a couple of phases he stopped play as a player was down injured. He then blew the final whistle as he said time was up... Now clearly this is incorrect.

Assume he should just restart play with a scrum to the team that has the ball?

No. Referee was correct. Game is over after a referee shouts last play when the ball next becomes dead. If it hadn't been last play the referee would still having seen a player injured so would have blown game up for a scrum but considering he called last play the game is up when the next scrum/lineout etc is called

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In general it is a bad idea for ref's to call last play. You can end up in all sorts of unwanted scenarios. For example, say a team score a try and after it is scored a player from the team that just conceded the try calls the ref a bollix. Then, it is a penalty to the team that just scored after they have taken the conversion so it could be a ten point swing. Or even madder, the team that gets the penalty could tap it run from the half way and score. In which case, you could have a 14 point swing.

Another example is you call last play and the defending team go all out for an intercept - is a ref going to change their opinion whether it is a deliberate knock on (in which case penalty is awarded) or an accidental one (in which case it is hit the showers)?

I see where you are coming from but teams know what is happening then, especially when in amateur rugby you wont have a stadium clock etc to know what time is left. You need to call last play to inform players of their options.

Tim Robbins

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No. Referee was correct. Game is over after a referee shouts last play when the ball next becomes dead. If it hadn't been last play the referee would still having seen a player injured so would have blown game up for a scrum but considering he called last play the game is up when the next scrum/lineout etc is called
I see where you are coming from but teams know what is happening then, especially when in amateur rugby you wont have a stadium clock etc to know what time is left. You need to call last play to inform players of their options.

True. But might be better to phrase it as the next time it goes dead rather than last play.

Losty Dublin

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

No. Referee was correct. Game is over after a referee shouts last play when the ball next becomes dead. If it hadn't been last play the referee would still having seen a player injured so would have blown game up for a scrum but considering he called last play the game is up when the next scrum/lineout etc is called.

The ref was incorrect in his call as the ball must be played dead for the game to end. Law 6.8.9 covers such a scenario. Mind you, unless it was a tight game with a score in it then I wouldn't be too worried about it finishing up like this.

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The ref was incorrect in his call as the ball must be played dead for the game to end. Law 6.8.9 covers such a scenario. Mind you, unless it was a tight game with a score in it then I wouldn't be too worried about it finishing up like this.

As far as I can see, there is no Law 6.8.9.
Law 6 is divided into A, B, and C.
The further subdivisions are numbered also.

Have a look.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=6

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The ref was incorrect in his call as the ball must be played dead for the game to end. Law 6.8.9 covers such a scenario. Mind you, unless it was a tight game with a score in it then I wouldn't be too worried about it finishing up like this.

As well as quoting an apparently non-existent law, you've also directly contradicted the law that was quoted (by Tim Robbins). Have a look at the bit I've bolded:

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I think the ref could have been technically correct:

Law 5.7(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

...

durkadurka

Munster Ulster game last week. Munster had the restart with a two point lead. The click had ticked over the 80.

Ref informed Munster outhalf that he couldn't kick the restart into touch or couldn't kick it dead.

When did that rule come in? I remember a Wales Scotland game s few years ago where Scotland blew a lead in similar circumstances because they wouldn't kick it into touch, but I don't remember any suggestion that they couldn't kick for touch.

locum-motion

Last post on this topic for now:

I've just noticed an apparent internal inconsistency in the Laws -

In Law 5, the subdivisions go Number.Number(letter)

In Law 6, the subdivisions go Number.Letter.Number

Does that strike anyone else as weird?

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

As far as I can see, there is no Law 6.8.9.
Law 6 is divided into A, B, and C.
The further subdivisions are numbered also.

Have a look.

http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=6

As well as quoting an apparently non-existent law, you've also directly contradicted the law that was quoted (by Tim Robbins). Have a look at the bit I've bolded:

Law 6 A 9, even. My tired brain, apologies

awec

durkadurka wrote: »

Munster Ulster game last week. Munster had the restart with a two point lead. The click had ticked over the 80.

Ref informed Munster outhalf that he couldn't kick the restart into touch or couldn't kick it dead.

When did that rule come in? I remember a Wales Scotland game s few years ago where Scotland blew a lead in similar circumstances because they wouldn't kick it into touch, but I don't remember any suggestion that they couldn't kick for touch.

I am not sure of the exact rule, but it's the same thing that happened to Stephen Myler a few seasons ago in the Premiership final in the incident that led to the red card for Hartley ruling him out of the Lions tour.

Wayne Barnes told him he couldn't kick it out on the full. He misheard and thought he could and did so, and then Barnes awarded a scrum to Leicester from where he kicked it out (it was a 22 drop out I think in that case).

Losty Dublin

durkadurka wrote: »

Munster Ulster game last week. Munster had the restart with a two point lead. The click had ticked over the 80.

Ref informed Munster outhalf that he couldn't kick the restart into touch or couldn't kick it dead.

When did that rule come in? I remember a Wales Scotland game s few years ago where Scotland blew a lead in similar circumstances because they wouldn't kick it into touch, but I don't remember any suggestion that they couldn't kick for touch.

A kick off can't go directly into touch; that's always been the case. If this happens then the ball is still in play so the game continues with either the kick retaken or a line out or a scrum is formed, the latter two being on the half way line. The same applies with a 22.

If the ball goes ten metres at a restart and touches the ground en route to touch then it is fine.

The Lost Sheep

durkadurka wrote: »

Munster Ulster game last week. Munster had the restart with a two point lead. The click had ticked over the 80.

Ref informed Munster outhalf that he couldn't kick the restart into touch or couldn't kick it dead.

When did that rule come in? I remember a Wales Scotland game s few years ago where Scotland blew a lead in similar circumstances because they wouldn't kick it into touch, but I don't remember any suggestion that they couldn't kick for touch.

The ball must land in the field of play so Munster couldn't directly kick the ball into touch or dead. That has been in the law book for a while

awec wrote: »

I am not sure of the exact rule, but it's the same thing that happened to Stephen Myler a few seasons ago in the Premiership final in the incident that led to the red card for Hartley ruling him out of the Lions tour.

Wayne Barnes told him he couldn't kick it out on the full. He misheard and thought he could and did so, and then Barnes awarded a scrum to Leicester from where he kicked it out (it was a 22 drop out I think in that case).

Law 13.14 The ball must land In the field of play. If it is kicked directly into the touch the opposition have the choice of
a) to have another drop out
b) to have put in to a scrum in middle of pitch on the 22
c) to accept the kick. the throw is on the 22

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Law 6 A 9, even. My tired brain, apologies

OK, then.

Law 6.A.9 The referee and injury:

If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws in the ball.

But that relates to the referee stopping play for injury during the 40 minutes of the half, not at the end of it.

In the specific case of the 40- or 80-minutes having expired, it is trumped by

Law 5.7 Other time regulations:

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Note that it says "The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum..."

Under 6.A.9, the ref would have awarded a scrum to restart after the injury. Therefore the ball is now dead, and the half/match is over.

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

OK, then.

Law 6.A.9 The referee and injury:


But that relates to the referee stopping play for injury during the 40 minutes of the half, not at the end of it.

In the specific case of the 40- or 80-minutes having expired, it is trumped by

Law 5.7 Other time regulations:


Note that it says "The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum..."

Under 6.A.9, the ref would have awarded a scrum to restart after the injury. Therefore the ball is now dead, and the half/match is over.

The game continues until the players and not the referee render the ball dead (score, out of play, knock on etc) after time is up. Law 6.A.9 allows a referee to stop a game if an injury warrants it. As no infringement happened the ball is not dead and a scrum is called to restart the game.

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The game continues until the players and not the referee render the ball dead (score, out of play, knock on etc) after time is up. Law 6.A.9 allows a referee to stop a game if an injury warrants it. As no infringement happened the ball is not dead and a scrum is called to restart the game.

I'm not sure how many times this Law is going to need to be quoted to you:

"The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum..."

The Laws DO NOT say what you have twice asserted that they do, namely that it has to be a player that makes the ball dead.

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

I'm not sure how many times this Law is going to need to be quoted to you:

"The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum..."

The Laws DO NOT say what you have twice asserted that they do, namely that it has to be a player that makes the ball dead.

It would be wise if we quoted this section law fully as it reveals a bit more...


"If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. "

Our friend 6.A.9 says...

"If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws in the ball."

The latter is pretty clear in saying what happens when the ball is not played dead.

stephen_n

I probably should know the answer to this one but..

In the event of a choke tackle, is it illegal for a secondary player on the attacking team, to pull the arms of the defender choking the ball, as in to try free the tackled player?

.ak

Hrmm... I suppose it is? I've seen it done plenty of times but never seen anyone pinged for it. Much the same way as you may try to dislodge the defender or clear them out if it goes to ground.

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It would be wise if we quoted this section law fully as it reveals a bit more...


"If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. "

Our friend 6.A.9 says...

"If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws in the ball."

The latter is pretty clear in saying what happens when the ball is not played dead.

You keep using the words 'played dead'. Care to show me where they appear in the laws?

I repeat - We are talking about the very specific case of what happens when there's been an injury after the 40- or 80-minutes has elapsed:

a. Play continues until the ball "becomes dead". (5.7, first sentence)
b. How the ball "becomes dead" is clearly defined: It "becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum,.." (5.7, second sentence)
c. Your friend 6.A.9 says "If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum."
d. Boom! That's it. There was a stoppage (without an infringement having occurred, and without the ball leaving the pitch or being otherwise 'made dead' by the action of a player) and if the 40- or 80-minutes hadn't elapsed play would have restarted by the awarding of a scrum. Then the second sentence of 5.7 kicks in, and the ball has become dead. Play then stops, under the first sentence.

shoutman

I think it's fairly rational that the match shouldn't end because the ref has stopped the game due to a suspected head injury.

If this was allowed surely you'd have players on the winning side going down with suspected head injuries as soon as the game goes into last play territory...

Losty Dublin

locum-motion wrote: »

You keep using the words 'played dead'. Care to show me where they appear in the laws?

I repeat - We are talking about the very specific case of what happens when there's been an injury after the 40- or 80-minutes has elapsed:

a. Play continues until the ball "becomes dead". (5.7, first sentence)
b. How the ball "becomes dead" is clearly defined: It "becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum,.." (5.7, second sentence)
c. Your friend 6.A.9 says "If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum."
d. Boom! That's it. There was a stoppage (without an infringement having occurred, and without the ball leaving the pitch or being otherwise 'made dead' by the action of a player) and if the 40- or 80-minutes hadn't elapsed play would have restarted by the awarding of a scrum. Then the second sentence of 5.7 kicks in, and the ball has become dead. Play then stops, under the first sentence.

For the last time 6.A.9 specifically covers the scenario of stopping and restarting the game in the event of an injury where no other stoppage has taken place. It has no bearing at all on Law 5 which concerns with time and timing of the game.

locum-motion

Losty Dublin wrote: »

For the last time 6.A.9 specifically covers the scenario of stopping and restarting the game in the event of an injury where no other stoppage has taken place. It has no bearing at all on Law 5 which concerns with time and timing of the game.

FFS, would you ever go and READ what I (and the person who asked the question) have WRITTEN?

locum-motion

shoutman wrote: »

I think it's fairly rational that the match shouldn't end because the ref has stopped the game due to a suspected head injury.

If this was allowed surely you'd have players on the winning side going down with suspected head injuries as soon as the game goes into last play territory...

Regardless of what you think is rational, the law says what the law says.
And despite the obtuseness of another poster who refuses to see what it says, it's crystal clear.

Shelflife

If the time is up and the ref stops the game due to an injury then the game does not restart.

6.a.9 defines how a game would restart if there was time to do so.

The ball becomes dead when the ref would have awarded a scrum 5.7.e (paraphrased).

Safety trumps everything, outcome of the game is a minor consequence to the safety of a player.

In the event of a player faking an injury you could award a pen and play on, if you found out after the game you could put in a report.

stephen_n

.ak wrote: »

Hrmm... I suppose it is? I've seen it done plenty of times but never seen anyone pinged for it. Much the same way as you may try to dislodge the defender or clear them out if it goes to ground.

I did get pinged for it a few weeks back, didn't know you couldn't do it, obviously no point questioning the decision at the time though.

sydthebeat

stephen_n wrote: »

I did get pinged for it a few weeks back, didn't know you couldn't do it, obviously no point questioning the decision at the time though.

If its a maul and the defender is on your Side, Is he not fair game for you to rip out of the maul? Happens all the time

stephen_n

sydthebeat wrote: »

If its a maul and the defender is on your Side, Is he not fair game for you to rip out of the maul? Happens all the time

Number 8 broke off the scrum, their 7 caught him and wrapped him up, I was the next man in and got my arm inside his arm and pulled it away, hoping our 8 would use the freedom to drop to the deck, other players arrived forming a maul, I got penalized I assume for pulling him out of the maul as it formed, didn't hear the ref calling for me to stop what I was doing, which wasn't actually trying to get him out of the maul, just stopping him choking the ball.

sydthebeat

stephen_n wrote: »

Number 8 broke off the scrum, their 7 caught him and wrapped him up, I was the next man in and got my arm inside his arm and pulled it away, hoping our 8 would use the freedom to drop to the deck, other players arrived forming a maul, I got penalized I assume for pulling him out of the maul as it formed, didn't hear the ref calling for me to stop what I was doing, which wasn't actually trying to get him out of the maul, just stopping him choking the ball.

yeah im not sure about what you were pinged for, did the ref tell you?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/rules_and_equipment/4204094.stm

Penalties can also be given for attempting to drag players out of the maul.

However this can be allowed if players are legitimately dragging out members of the opposition who have ended up on the wrong side

this above was what i was referring to.......