Laws Question? Ask here!

Interested Observer · 06-03-2015 11:16am

If you're in front of the kicker the law states you have to be seen to retreat 10m. If you don't you're offside. In reality a lot of refs will allow some leeway, I can imagine it's very hard to police tbh when you've 10 players to watch.

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 1:06pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

If you're in front of the kicker the law states you have to be seen to retreat 10m. If you don't you're offside. In reality a lot of refs will allow some leeway, I can imagine it's very hard to police tbh when you've 10 players to watch.

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Losty Dublin · 06-03-2015 3:07pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Here's a tip for props players who need to catch their breath mid gam.

When a kick goes up, shout "Stay onside." really loudly. Everybody then stands still as they haven't a clue about the offside law here and they are afraid to move in case they get pinged. As such, nothing will happen and it gives you vital oxygen time for about 10 seconds without fouling up :pac:

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2015 3:23pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

My understanding is that you must retreat but that once the kicker (or someone behind the kicker at the moment of the kick) goes in front of you you are back onside. In the weekend POC (I think) never made the effort to retreat hence pinged for offside.

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic.** What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens..

** Because I'd been "approached" (screamed and shouted at) by the management of a team after a match that I had penalised for offside in this manner (inside the 10m) at a crucial moment in a game and took the opportunity to ask a real ref if I'd been right...

rje66 · 06-03-2015 3:34pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic. What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.OR PASSES THE BALL

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens YES, UNDER 10M YOU CANNOT BE PUT ONSIDE BY THE ACTIONS OF THE CATCHER..

also WRT players who are off side in front of kicker , if they and not complying with law prior to kick and they then prevent a QT, they are liable to penalty

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 3:53pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Not quite.....

I actually had a long discussion with Peter Fitzgibbon a while back at a referees training session on this topic.** What he told me was this..

If you are more than 10m from the catcher/where the ball lands, then you can stand still and be put onside by the kicker or someone who was behind the kicker when he kicked..

You can also be put onside by the catcher , once he moves more than 5m.

if you are inside that 10m zone , you must retreat no matter what else happens..

** Because I'd been "approached" (screamed and shouted at) by the management of a team after a match that I had penalised for offside in this manner (inside the 10m) at a crucial moment in a game and took the opportunity to ask a real ref if I'd been right...

Hmmm.

Law 11.4b

While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

Think I might be right actually.

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2015 4:33pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

Hmmm.

Law 11.4b

While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

Think I might be right actually.

You need to look at all of Law 11..

11.4 covers "inside the 10m" area , basically inside the 10m , no action taken by anybody other than you can put you onside - The only option available is for you to retreat beyond 10m.

However , outside the 10m zone , 11.2 and 11.3 apply and you can be put onside in a variety of ways, there is also no specific obligation to retreat as long as you are not interfering with play.

11.2 Being put onside by the action of a team-mate

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by actions of that player or of team mates:
(a) Action by the player. When the offside player runs behind the team-mate who last kicked, touched or carried the ball, the player is put onside.
(b) Action by the ball carrier. When a team-mate carrying the ball runs in front of the offside player, that player is put onside.
(c) Action by the kicker or other onside player. When the kicker, or team-mate who was level with or behind the kicker when (or after) the ball was kicked, runs in front of the offside player, the player is put onside. When running forward, the team-mate may be in touch or touch-in-goal, but that team-mate must return to the playing area to put the player onside.

11.3 Being put onside by opponents

In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.

(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.

(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.

(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 4:40pm

We'll have to agree to disagree. The only option is to move away (we agree on this), but once an onside player catches up the player running back is onside and doesn't need to keep running the full 10m (we disagree on this).

Quin_Dub · 06-03-2015 4:50pm

Swiwi. wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree. The only option is to move away (we agree on this), but once an onside player catches up the player running back is onside and doesn't need to keep running the full 10m (we disagree on this).

Indeed - the offside player has to move though if within 10m , that's the key..

They cannot but put onside by the actions of others alone, whereas outside 10m you can stand still/do nothing and get put back onside..

Think we can call us in agreement at that :-)

Swiwi. · 06-03-2015 4:55pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Indeed - the offside player has to move though if within 10m , that's the key..

They cannot but put onside by the actions of others alone, whereas outside 10m you can stand still/do nothing and get put back onside..

Think we can call us in agreement at that :-)

I'm going to quote Barack on that.

Yes we can! (Call us in agreement at that)

locum-motion · 06-03-2015 10:34pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

This was one I didn't know about. I thought that once the kicker passed you, you were onside. Never knew you had to retreat 10m as well.

padser wrote: »

I didn't know that either. Is it definitely true?

Law 11.4 Offside under the 10-metre law
...
(b): While moving away, the offside player cannot be put onside by any action of the opposing team. However, before the player has moved the full 10 metres, the player can be put onside by any onside team-mate who runs in front of the player.

So there you are then!

.ak · 08-03-2015 10:00pm

Interesting try here.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1061571343856711

So, you can be out of touch if you're grounding a loose ball in the in goal area.

Losty Dublin · 08-03-2015 10:09pm

.ak wrote: »

Interesting try here.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1061571343856711

So, you can be out of touch if you're grounding a loose ball in the in goal area.

Yep, once you aren't carrying the ball and go into touch when in in-goal.

accidentprone1 · 09-03-2015 11:13am

Quick question on restarts: you often see the kicker dropping the ball a little in front of the halfway line to kick it. Is there a strict limit to how far ahead of the line you can be when you kick it, or is just a case of not taking the piss?

.ak · 09-03-2015 11:39am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Yep, once you aren't carrying the ball and go into touch when in in-goal.

That's crazy, I never knew that.

So, when the ball is kicked into the in goal area, you often see players trying their best to make sure their feet aren't in-touch whilst grounding the ball the just caught... when infact they don't need to? So for example Henshaw's feet/body could've been in-touch when grounding that ball in the England game and the try would've stuck?

rudiger2.0 · 09-03-2015 11:44am

.ak wrote: »

That's crazy, I never knew that.

So, when the ball is kicked into the in goal area, you often see players trying their best to make sure their feet aren't in-touch whilst grounding the ball the just caught... when infact they don't need to? So for example Henshaw's feet/body could've been in-touch when grounding that ball in the England game and the try would've stuck?

I would say no because he caught the ball. It seems this law only applies to when the ball is already on the ground and you are touching it down.

.ak · 09-03-2015 12:10pm

rudiger2.0 wrote: »

I would say no because he caught the ball. It seems this law only applies to when the ball is already on the ground and you are touching it down.

Ah, that makes sense.

sydthebeat · 09-03-2015 12:15pm

another one which think might have been dealt with recently....

Luke Fitz caught a ball with one foot in touch and one foot on the pitch... he immediately threw it as a quick line out in the same stance.

Both assistant referee and referee had a clear unobstructed view of this and allowed play on, so the question is, is this legal?

.ak · 09-03-2015 12:27pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

another one which think might have been dealt with recently....

Luke Fitz caught a ball with one foot in touch and one foot on the pitch... he immediately threw it as a quick line out in the same stance.

Both assistant referee and referee had a clear unobstructed view of this and allowed play on, so the question is, is this legal?

I think if he throws it with the same movement, i.e his feet didn't move, then it's allowed.

You're not supposed to take it into touch, and then step back into play and throw it.

elefant · 09-03-2015 12:34pm

accidentprone1 wrote: »

Quick question on restarts: you often see the kicker dropping the ball a little in front of the halfway line to kick it. Is there a strict limit to how far ahead of the line you can be when you kick it, or is just a case of not taking the piss?

Never thought I'd be doing anything but lurking in this thread, but this is something I've wondered about before myself. I seem to remember a match a few years back (at a stretch I'd say a six nations game involving Italy?) where the referee made the out-half retake the kick-off a few times because he wasn't dropping the ball right on the line. Only time I've ever seen it.

Anyone else remember that match?

phog · 09-03-2015 12:38pm

accidentprone1 wrote: »

Quick question on restarts: you often see the kicker dropping the ball a little in front of the halfway line to kick it. Is there a strict limit to how far ahead of the line you can be when you kick it, or is just a case of not taking the piss?

Sexton used to step into the other half to kick off, not sure if he still does it.

.ak · 09-03-2015 12:44pm

I've seen some refs call it. Pure pedantic if they do. They get no advantage from half a step either way.

sydthebeat · 09-03-2015 1:00pm

.ak wrote: »

I think if he throws it with the same movement, i.e his feet didn't move, then it's allowed.

You're not supposed to take it into touch, and then step back into play and throw it.

yeah ive seen it happen a few times, just wondering if it has a basis in law

Swiwi. · 09-03-2015 1:02pm

.ak wrote: »

I've seen some refs call it. Pure pedantic if they do. They get no advantage from half a step either way.

How often does the hooker have some of his foot in the field of play when throwing in. That's another one never called. Probably would be pedantic too. I remember Grant Fox getting denied a try for it though when Fitzpatrick had his foot just in the field of play. Derek Bevan, Jim Fleming or one of those old-style refs.

Fireball07 · 09-03-2015 6:20pm

I saw someone mention this somewhere else, and just wondering about the legality of it.

Attempting a drop goal that goes dead results in a 22. If you're in your own half, a 22 may be preferable than attempting a box kick or kicking for the corner. Not that easy to execute but could gain you territory?

sydthebeat · 09-03-2015 6:24pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I saw someone mention this somewhere else, and just wondering about the legality of it.

Attempting a drop goal that goes dead results in a 22. If you're in your own half, a 22 may be preferable than attempting a box kick or kicking for the corner. Not that easy to execute but could gain you territory?

if it goes dead yeah ... it if doesnt....

Quin_Dub · 09-03-2015 6:55pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I saw someone mention this somewhere else, and just wondering about the legality of it.

Attempting a drop goal that goes dead results in a 22. If you're in your own half, a 22 may be preferable than attempting a box kick or kicking for the corner. Not that easy to execute but could gain you territory?

Back in the day, before they changed the law virtually every kick-off was smashed over the dead-ball to force a 22 drop-out. There were hardly any contested kick-offs..

I seem to recall there being something about kicks at goal having to be "reasonable attempts" or you could be penalised - Although it may only apply to Penalty kicks and not DG's

Basically to stop a team in the lead with 60 seconds left pointing at the posts from their own 22 to eat up the clock for example...

locum-motion · 09-03-2015 9:37pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

another one which think might have been dealt with recently....

Luke Fitz caught a ball with one foot in touch and one foot on the pitch... he immediately threw it as a quick line out in the same stance.

Both assistant referee and referee had a clear unobstructed view of this and allowed play on, so the question is, is this legal?

If he caught a kick when he had one foot in touch, then the ball is in touch/out of play. Assuming the ball was kicked by a member of the opposition, then it is a lineout for LF's team. He is perfectly entitled to take it as a quick throw in. The fact that he is able to do so that quickly is just a bonus for his team.

sydthebeat · 09-03-2015 10:13pm

locum-motion wrote: »

If he caught a kick when he had one foot in touch, then the ball is in touch/out of play. Assuming the ball was kicked by a member of the opposition, then it is a lineout for LF's team. He is perfectly entitled to take it as a quick throw in. The fact that he is able to do so that quickly is just a bonus for his team.

No my question is. ...
When he catches the ball he had one foot in touch and one foot in play. But then he takes a quick throw with that stance ie one foot in touch and one foot in play.

Is that legal?

Interested Observer · 09-03-2015 10:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

No my question is. ...
When he catches the ball he had one foot in touch and one foot in play. But then he takes a quick throw with that stance ie one foot in touch and one foot in play.

Is that legal?

No I don't think it is.

19.2(b):

For a quick throw in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between the place where the ball would be thrown in from a formed lineout and the player’s goal line.

Laws Question? Ask here!

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