Laws Question? Ask here!

Downtime

eggchaser wrote: »

I saw a gwme in the Las Vegas sevens recently and a player from I think it was Kenya took a successful conversion from behind the goal and the referee allowed it. The commentators were bemused.
Is this legal?

In sevens, yes.

karlitob

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

It telegraphs that you will be picking and going rather than spearding the ball wide.

Or does it?????

karlitob

Hazys wrote: »

Q1 Is there any law that says only the designated hooker has to throw the ball into a lineout?


If you had a hooker that is an excellant scrimmager but couldnt throw the ball straight past 5 yards to save his life and if you had lets say, an outhalf that was an excellant passer of the ball, can he throw it in for the lineout and let the hooker stand out in the backs for lineouts?

I presume there is no law against this, but why dont you see other players attempting to throw the ball in for lineouts? Tradition?

Interestingly, New Zealand used to have the winger throw in the ball. Even stranger, the winger would stand on the touch line, face his own goal line and throw the ball, end over end into the line out. Mad. That was only in the 70's too.

Even more interestingly, at the turn of the 1900s, maybe earlier. the nz used to line out their front row 2-3-2-1 rather than our now traditional 3-4-1. They're props would both be tight-heads as such.

And of course nowadays, nz considers its stand offs as first five-eight and second five-eight. Interesting concept.

Podge_irl

Quick question - in today's game Owen said he was going to bin the next Ireland player to infringe at the breakdown in our half. Leamy then proceeded to do so but Parks got the drop goal while Owens was playing advantage.

I presume Owens could still have yellow carded Leamy or does he have to have actually given a penalty in order to do so?

karlitob

Podge_irl wrote: »

Quick question - in today's game Owen said he was going to bin the next Ireland player to infringe at the breakdown in our half. Leamy then proceeded to do so but Parks got the drop goal while Owens was playing advantage.

I presume Owens could still have yellow carded Leamy or does he have to have actually given a penalty in order to do so?

He can bin him whenever he wants. There are examples (they escape me now) of ref's sending a player off in the dressing rooms before and after games. I remember an incident in my own club where the ref sent a player off in the showers. I suppose that meant that he reported the player to the Munster Branch for an incident.

There are other examples of where a team may have scored and the ref gives a penalty against an offending team from the kick off. Again, this is local stuff and not international level.

The ref is boss!!!

karlitob

Shelflife wrote: »

Anyone can throw the ball into the lineout

anyone can put the ball into the scrum.

A substituted player can only return to the pitch in very limited circumstances (blood I think) so you would have no scrumhalf for the rest of the game.

A substituted player can return for a blood replacement or injury. In effect, you should not have to be reduced to 15 for any reason (unless all 7 subs are injured and a player on the pitch.)

Podge_irl

karlitob wrote: »

There are other examples of where a team may have scored and the ref gives a penalty against an offending team from the kick off. Again, this is local stuff and not international level.

I've seen that alright (even at international level), but it still results in a penalty being given. I was just curious as to whether he can give a yellow with technically awarding a penalty. (I'm guessing, as you say, that the answer is yes).

karlitob

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've seen that alright (even at international level), but it still results in a penalty being given. I was just curious as to whether he can give a yellow with technically awarding a penalty. (I'm guessing, as you say, that the answer is yes).

i presume you mean 'without' technically awarding a penalty. I'm gonna say yes.

I always refer to Law 6.A.4 9a) The referee is the sole judge of fact and of Law during the match.


A more interesting question is that of advantage. It has changed in recent yeas. Owens gave us advantage today then after a ruck on the backfoot, he asked did we want a penalty, we played on and put in a poor kick into scottish hands and advantage was over.
- you always play the whistle so asking if you want a penalty is not the right option as players dont know what to do. Also, it gives a lot of discretion to the ref as to what is advantage. It should be 'clear and real' - ambiguous or what?

remwhite

Was playing a match the other week and one of our players was trying to catch a loose pass. The ball was dropping at his feet and he just managed to get a hand to it and flick it up. He gave it a fairly substantial flick and it went about 2 meters forward an over head height but he caught it. He was away and the ref blew it up and said "ya can't do that". Never touched anything but his hands, no opposition and not the turf. Didn't matter a whole lot but am I right in saying the ref was incorrect.

Risteard

remwhite wrote: »

Was playing a match the other week and one of our players was trying to catch a loose pass. The ball was dropping at his feet and he just managed to get a hand to it and flick it up. He gave it a fairly substantial flick and it went about 2 meters forward an over head height but he caught it. He was away and the ref blew it up and said "ya can't do that". Never touched anything but his hands, no opposition and not the turf. Didn't matter a whole lot but am I right in saying the ref was incorrect.

It's tricky one. I think it should have been allowed but I remember a few years ago when Agen were playing Leinster I think and the ball was chipped, bounced over the Leinster player's head and Caucau running on to it kind of slapped it forwards and caught it before it hit the ground or any other player, but it was ruled a knock on.

I also have a question of myown, can a mark be called from a missed penalty kick?

remwhite

Risteard wrote: »

It's tricky one. I think it should have been allowed but I remember a few years ago when Agen were playing Leinster I think and the ball was chipped, bounced over the Leinster player's head and Caucau running on to it kind of slapped it forwards and caught it before it hit the ground or any other player, but it was ruled a knock on.

I also have a question of myown, can a mark be called from a missed penalty kick?

I remember as a kid(early 90s) my Dad showing me something on tele. Think the rule might have just changed around then or something because he told me you couldn't do that before. But anyway there was a high ball(I'm assuming a kick) in the dead ball zone/on the try line and a couple of lads were waiting for it to drop and a Welsh player(I think) ran on to it at pace, jumped, flicked it on with one hand, landed and caught it and scored the try.

Don't know about the penalty. I read that it can't be called from a "restart kick" but am not sure if a penalty is deemed to be a restart kick.

Risteard

Thing is though, if you say what happened in your match is a knock-on, thene where's the limit drawn, can juggling the ball from a bad pass be counted as a knock on?

I suppose like many things it's up the the ref's interpretation.

remwhite

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

castie

Isnt this more to do with the fact that you cant run up and throw the ball over a guy and run past him to collect it before it hits the ground?

karlitob

remwhite wrote: »

Was playing a match the other week and one of our players was trying to catch a loose pass. The ball was dropping at his feet and he just managed to get a hand to it and flick it up. He gave it a fairly substantial flick and it went about 2 meters forward an over head height but he caught it. He was away and the ref blew it up and said "ya can't do that". Never touched anything but his hands, no opposition and not the turf. Didn't matter a whole lot but am I right in saying the ref was incorrect.

This is an interesting one. What did they ref give the peno for?

The only two issues I see here are knock-on or forward pass.

It seems he didnt knock it on so I would say it sounds like a forward pass. Why? Well, you said that he gave it a substantial flick. I take that to mean that he intended to flick rather than as a consequence of not being able to catch it. 'Over head height' was that over other players head height.

A recent example was BOD's flick/pass outside a scrum with Leinster. This was a lateral pass but close to being a forward pass.


The other thing I would say about this is that if I was the opposition I would hammer the player that flicked it as he is considered being in control/in possession of the ball. A free hit!!!!! Lots of lovely ribs. Yum!!!!

karlitob

Risteard wrote: »

It's tricky one. I think it should have been allowed but I remember a few years ago when Agen were playing Leinster I think and the ball was chipped, bounced over the Leinster player's head and Caucau running on to it kind of slapped it forwards and caught it before it hit the ground or any other player, but it was ruled a knock on.

I also have a question of myown, can a mark be called from a missed penalty kick?

You can only mark a ball from open play.

A poor player from Richmond under 14 learned that lesson when he marked my out-halfs restart. I can still see the fear in his eyes as I bore down on him. Free dinner!!!

karlitob

castie wrote: »

Isnt this more to do with the fact that you cant run up and throw the ball over a guy and run past him to collect it before it hits the ground?

Exactly

karlitob

Risteard wrote: »

Thing is though, if you say what happened in your match is a knock-on, thene where's the limit drawn, can juggling the ball from a bad pass be counted as a knock on?

I suppose like many things it's up the the ref's interpretation.

Thats not a knock-on. But dont forget to tackle the player anyway. He wont be looking at you1

Downtime

Risteard wrote: »

I also have a question of myown, can a mark be called from a missed penalty kick?

Yes it can even if it has come off the post

karlitob

Downtime wrote: »

Yes it can even if it has come off the post

I looked it up again. I dont think you can. You can mark a ball 'even if it has hit the goal posts or crossbar' but that probably means from open play.

Law 18: a mark cannot be made from a kick-off or restart kick except for a drop out.

A penalty restarts the game. A kick-off restarts the game. A drop out would mean a 22-drop out.

So no - you cant mark from a penalty.

karlitob

Downtime wrote: »

In sevens, yes.

I don't think thats true. Why would you? The in-goal area is not in the field of play. The conversion must be in the field of play as the 'kick is taken on a line through the place where the try was scored'. If the try was scored on the touch-in-goal this is not a score and thus the conversion cant be taken.

No you cant score from behind the goalposts.

karlitob

Paola Flabby Teammate wrote: »

Like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzvnexjWJYg

I think this was the first time it was done on a large scale ,I think clarification was made after that made it illegal.There was lots of debate over whether it was legal or not at the time.

14th second. The Ulster player is unable to tackle O Driscoll. Crossing and obstruction

Downtime

karlitob wrote: »

I looked it up again. I dont think you can. You can mark a ball 'even if it has hit the goal posts or crossbar' but that probably means from open play.

Law 18: a mark cannot be made from a kick-off or restart kick except for a drop out.

A penalty restarts the game. A kick-off restarts the game. A drop out would mean a 22-drop out.

So no - you cant mark from a penalty.

A penalty is not a kick- off or restart kick and therefore can be marked. It does not restart the game as the game is still live during a penalty kick

Butch Cassidy

Just thought I'd post this up with regards to the Ireland v Wales game and the quick throw in issue.

19.2 QUICK THROW-IN

(a) A player may take a quick throw-in without waiting for a lineout to form.
(b) For a quick throw-in, the player may be anywhere outside the field of play between the place where the ball went into touch and the player’s goal line.
(c) A player must not take a quick throw-in after the lineout has formed. If the player does, the quick throw-in is disallowed. The same team throws in at the lineout.

(d) For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.

Risteard

Just to aadd that the excuse being offered on RTE that it wasn't a quick lineout and was in fact a proper lineout just taken quickly (if you get me) doesn't stack up as I'm sure there has to be a minimum 2 players form each team for a lineout.

Also there's the fact that Kaplan asked if it was the same ball suggests that he didn't view it as a lineout.

RuggieBear

Risteard wrote: »

Just to aadd that the excuse being offered on RTE that it wasn't a quick lineout and was in fact a proper lineout just taken quickly (if you get me) doesn't stack up as I'm sure there has to be a minimum 2 players form each team for a lineout.

Also there's the fact that Kaplan asked if it was the same ball suggests that he didn't view it as a lineout.

I'll youtube it and see what you all think. I'm slightly very biased and i could be very wrong but appears to be a shocking noncall to me.

davidpfitz

Risteard wrote: »

Just to aadd that the excuse being offered on RTE that it wasn't a quick lineout and was in fact a proper lineout just taken quickly (if you get me) doesn't stack up as I'm sure there has to be a minimum 2 players form each team for a lineout.

Also there's the fact that Kaplan asked if it was the same ball suggests that he didn't view it as a lineout.

From the law definitions: "Players taking part in the lineout known as participating players. Players taking part in the lineout are the player who throws-in and an immediate opponent, the two players waiting to receive the ball from the lineout and the lineout players."

So, 2 players from each side. 4 in all receiving, one throwing.

castie

Not sure about this but Phillips also joined the lineout as it was being taken which is surely illegal given the distance he traveled to recieve it.

karlitob

Downtime wrote: »

A penalty is not a kick- off or restart kick and therefore can be marked. It does not restart the game as the game is still live during a penalty kick

Thanks Downtime. On reflection, well done, I think you're correct. Thanks for that again.

karlitob

castie wrote: »

Not sure about this but Phillips also joined the lineout as it was being taken which is surely illegal given the distance he traveled to recieve it.

This incident was bound to happen at some stage because ref's are not being pedantic about it.


Castie - Not sure what you mean on this.

Its a clear breach of the law.

Different ball

Different person threw it in (by definition if its a different ball)

The line-out had not formed. You need two from both sides. I'd go so far as to say that this has to clearly be a lineout. You often see from time to time teams have not quite formed a lineout and a player throws it in quickly - the ref brings it back for a set lineout.

All Phillips needed to do was be five metres back from where he receives it and the ball not to be thrown forward.

If you look at where Kaplan stands he should clearly see that its not the same ball. Very poor call.

Also, the Touch Judge brought the line-out back cos it went out of the full. He was standing in front of the ball boy who gave the hooker a new ball.

The touch judge had plenty of time to think about what happened as he ran down the line. It wasnt an on the spot decision. The ref must have thought something was up when he asked his touch judge. He had three options: accept the touch judges decision, refuse his decision and bring the lineout back or TMO. Whats the point having a TMO if this happens. As far as I know, the TMO is appropriate in this instance.

Lastly, its Ireland's fault. You get back, get set and heads up. You should never be caught on a quick lineout or quick tap. Its inexcusable.

Now as for Paddy Wallace - am I the only one who is unsure why he is an Irish international?

RuggieBear

RuggieBear wrote: »

I'll youtube it and see what you all think. I'm slightly very biased and i could be very wrong but appears to be a shocking noncall to me.

posted it here
I understand officials make mistakes but this was such a simple one it is mind blowing how Peter Allan got it so wrong.

defadman

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

castie

defadman wrote: »

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

Usually due to the pressure the retreating team will pop up or the scrum will fall apart.

newby.204

I'll ask for some patience with this question.

now i understand the basics of the offside rules of rugby however i have a question about the offside rule from kicks.

When a player kicks the ball he has to chase to get everyone else onside? but sometimes say ROG kicks and someone else chases? both kicks are from play but two different chasers

if anything needs to be clarified about my question feel free to tear the post apart and ill happily answer

Paulw

The kicker doesn't need to chase. Anyone behind him, when he kicks, can chase the ball.

lologram

newby.204 wrote: »

When a player kicks the ball he has to chase to get everyone else onside? but sometimes say ROG kicks and someone else chases? both kicks are from play but two different chasers

Law 11.2 c) refers to 'Action by the kicker or other onside player'. So basically anyone who was behind (or level with) the kicker can chase forward and put players on the same team onside.

There is another thing they have to consider though. The offside players have to actively retreat 10 metres from any player on the opposing side who might try catch the ball after it's been kicked. They altered this Law to stop people just idly standing in the field and waiting to be put onside.

This is where the Law is, if you want to look at it in more detail. http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_11_EN.pdf

RuggieBear

lologram wrote: »

Law 11.2 c) refers to 'Action by the kicker or other onside player'. So basically anyone who was behind (or level with) the kicker can chase forward and put players on the same team onside.

There is another thing they have to consider though. The offside players have to actively retreat 10 metres from any player on the opposing side who might try catch the ball after it's been kicked. They altered this Law to stop people just idly standing in the field and waiting to be put onside.

This is where the Law is, if you want to look at it in more detail. http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_11_EN.pdf

Is that retreat 10m from the player towards your own line or could you move 10m laterally away from the player (but not moving towards your own line)? players appear to do and amalgamation of the two..

KERSPLAT!

I was just wondering when the Rugby leagues start and finish?

Ive only started playing (3 months) J3 and never asked the manager,




Wont be at training for a few weeks so wont get to ask either

mikedragon32

Hardly a laws question. Junior leagues will finish up in the next couple of weeks or so and then the cup competitions start, when it's up to ye to determine how much longer you play!

KERSPLAT!

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Hardly a laws question. Junior leagues will finish up in the next couple of weeks or so and then the cup competitions start, when it's up to ye to determine how much longer you play!

Thanks

I thought better to ask here than start a whole new thread for a simple
question that I would only expect 2-3 replies if even that

davidpfitz

RuggieBear wrote: »

Is that retreat 10m from the player towards your own line or could you move 10m laterally away from the player (but not moving towards your own line)? players appear to do and amalgamation of the two..

Towards your own line - so if you ran diagonally, you would need to cover more than 10 metres. Players try to bend the rules here by going a bit sideways and not quite 10m back.

karlitob

IPAM wrote: »

Thanks

I thought better to ask here than start a whole new thread for a simple
question that I would only expect 2-3 replies if even that

Its not better. Forums are for asking simple questions. Laws questions only please.

karlitob

defadman wrote: »

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

Do they give a penalty?

Scrum: if team A are being shoved off the ball, as the other poster rightly says, its usually an infringement. Popping up, breaking binds.

Maul: usually, this is because when team A are being pushed back, the maul collapses, the ball becomes unplayable and hasn't hit the deck. The team going forward when the ball has become unplayable gets the put in to the scrum.

Generally, advantage is given to the team going forward

castie

karlitob wrote: »

Do they give a penalty?

Scrum: if team A are being shoved off the ball, as the other poster rightly says, its usually an infringement. Popping up, breaking binds.

Maul: usually, this is because when team A are being pushed back, the maul collapses, the ball becomes unplayable and hasn't hit the deck. The team going forward when the ball has become unplayable gets the put in to the scrum.

Generally, advantage is given to the team going forward

For Mauls thats not true.
If its deemed a maul and it becomes unplayable.
Its a scrum to the defending side.

karlitob

castie wrote: »

For Mauls thats not true.
If its deemed a maul and it becomes unplayable.
Its a scrum to the defending side.

No, if Team A goes into a maul and it doesn't go to ground and therefore unplayable - it goes to Team B - Scrum.
Law 17.6 b and c.

If neither team is moving was moving forward, the attacking team puts in the ball. Therefore, advantage to the team moving forward.

daveharnett

remwhite wrote: »

Was playing a match the other week and one of our players was trying to catch a loose pass. The ball was dropping at his feet and he just managed to get a hand to it and flick it up. He gave it a fairly substantial flick and it went about 2 meters forward an over head height but he caught it. He was away and the ref blew it up and said "ya can't do that". Never touched anything but his hands, no opposition and not the turf. Didn't matter a whole lot but am I right in saying the ref was incorrect.

Law 12(e) Intentional knock or throw forward: A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.
Sanction: Penalty kick.

'Juggling' the ball forward in an attempt to regain control is against the letter of the law.

While most refs will be sympathetic and let it go, if you end up gaining a significant advantage (sounds like your man beat a player by 'flicking' the ball forward?), you no longer get the benefit of the doubt that you were 'just' trying to regain control.

Edit: As a matter of interest, was the outcome a scrum or pk?

daveharnett

RuggieBear wrote: »

posted it here
I understand officials make mistakes but this was such a simple one it is mind blowing how Peter Allan got it so wrong.

Absolutely amazing. Between the flag going up and the lineout forming, the AR has ONE duty - watching the 'live' ball to determine when the quick throw is/not on.

No blame for the ref here - he is coached to backpedal to the mark so he can watch for afters on the pitch, while the AR watches the ball. After the event, I don't think the TMO was an option - there was no question about what happened in-goal.

I'd be disgusted if I did this at an U16 match. The worst officiating error I've seen in professional rugby by some bargain.

Brian P

Explain this to me please. Why have we successfully won scrums in our last two games by holding up a player with the ball even though everybody seems to hit the deck eventually with our lads still holding on to the opposition player. Why were we continuously penalised in our earlier games for not releasing after the tackle in very similar situations (at least to my eyes).What am I missing?:)

castie

Brian P wrote: »

Explain this to me please. Why have we successfully won scrums in our last two games by holding up a player with the ball even though everybody seems to hit the deck eventually with our lads still holding on to the opposition player. Why were we continuously penalised in our earlier games for not releasing after the tackle in very similar situations (at least to my eyes).What am I missing?:)

The Ref has determined a maul has been formed and then the ball has become unplayable.

In this case its a scrum to the defending team.

Downtime

castie wrote: »

The Ref has determined a maul has been formed and then the ball has become unplayable.

In this case its a scrum to the defending team.

Not necessarily. The defending team may have brought it into the maul. it is a scrum to the team not it possession when the maul began.