Motorway Redesignation sparks huge complaints

Amtmann

Thoie wrote: »

I wasn't trying to induce sighs

I withdraw my churlish sigh in that case.

The areas of dual carriageway that they want to redesignate - do these already have bridges/underpasses?

The two N8 sections have several overbridges and underpasses, yes. The rest I don't know about, but they all almost certainly do. Others can confirm this. As I said, it's inconceivable in this country that overbridges (that would allow access) are absent from all or even one of the redesignation candidates.

If the bridges/underpasses already exist on these bits of roads, fair enough, I have no sympathy. And I'm familiar with places where arrangements have been made, and again I have no sympathy that it takes an extra 2 minutes to get somewhere, when you've been paid well for that land.

I agree - and my suspicion is that this is just an excuse to have a whinge and obtain 'compo'.

What I would have sympathy for are places where I've sold my land to make a dual carriageway, with no alternative arrangements made (because none were needed), and I now suddenly have to drive 20 miles around to get to my other field. In that case, yes, I'd be asking for a bridge/tunnel to be in place before the designation is changed.

Again, where in this country do you have 20 miles of motorway sans overbridges/underpasses? You just don't have that here. Overbridges are too common for that on all our grade separated dual carriageways. Also, I have to say I don't quite see the logic; how could the scenario you posit above arise? No farmer can directly access his land off a dual carriageway as things stand. Agreed? So, even before redesignation, presumably in your scenario he would have driven along the DC to the nearest grade seperated junction and access his land via that. The only thing that would change if redesignation were to go through would be that instead of travelling to the junction on the motorway, he would now have to travel along the original old single-carriageway road to that junction - and, as we all know, these all run parallell to the DCs anyway. What difference would it make to the farmer really?

If you tell me that all those farms already have alternative arrangements in place then I'll agree with you and say to hell with the lot of them.

Naturally I don't have the specifics. My argument is that given the regularity of overbridges and underpasses along all Irish grade separated dual carriageways, the question of access must be bogus in almost every case. (Bear in mind, of course, that there have reportedly been a flood of objections.)

mysterious

mysterious wrote: »

Athlone bypass will not be 120kmh anyway. Are you going to persuade tractors to go through the town and why should Athlone have to endure all the restrictions of the motorway on it's second crossing and only to put more pressure on the town bridge.

Athlone bypass has many interchanges, a steep curve on both sides of the bypass, and alot of local traffic using this route with a speed limit of 100kmh. it's not built for motorway speed anyway.

If it was, it would of been a motorway from the beginning.

The only argument I see is, people wanting to have a blue road on the map. In France you have the Bordeaux to Lyon motorway with some parts only DC. Get over it seriously. This is just stupid.

I will not agree with any road become a motorway for the craic of it. If it's not up to standard, then it's not up to motorway standard.

Anyway what is the big deal about a few tractors. I'd hardly see tractors on this road anyhow.

The only valid reasion for the Athlone relief road to be designated a motorway, is to prevent any more junctions being constructed along it's length! I know of at least one councillor who is against redesignation as it goes against one of his developer friends who wants an additional access constructed.

If the road can be satisfacturally protected against any such development without being a motorway then leave as is.

Perhaps it could have the protection of a motorway (legally, preventing such development) but without restrictions for vehicles travelling on it.

If you travel on this road at certain times of the day, you'll always see at least one tractor.

The Word Is Bor

mysterious wrote: »

I don't think its the farmers fault here. If the NRA built proper underbridges so farmers wouldn't have to travel many miles around to the nearest interchange or bridge to navigate back to their destination, then it wouldn't of been a problem. The NRA have made it pretty difficult for them.

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

This is the point I don't agree with, and everyone here is quick to ignore this point. This is not right.

The other issue here, is that some people want blue road restrictions, cus it looks pretty on a map. That is nonsense. This is the real problem I have with this.

Since we are on a fact hunt, care to provide a few facts to substantiate the above?

mysterious

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

Since we are on a fact hunt, care to provide a few facts to substantiate the above?

What can facts are you looking for, since it's unawareness is the problem here. I don't think I have much paitence for that.

But what would you like to point me out on. Go ahead test me.

mysterious

Deleted User wrote: »

The only valid reasion for the Athlone relief road to be designated a motorway, is to prevent any more junctions being constructed along it's length! I know of at least one councillor who is against redesignation as it goes against one of his developer friends who wants an additional access constructed.

If the road can be satisfacturally protected against any such development without being a motorway then leave as is.

Perhaps it could have the protection of a motorway (legally, preventing such development) but without restrictions for vehicles travelling on it.

If you travel on this road at certain times of the day, you'll always see at least one tractor.

Because it's the shannon crossing point. The council can also object to development onto the relief road.

The Word Is Bor

mysterious wrote: »

I don't think its the farmers fault here. If the NRA built proper underbridges so farmers wouldn't have to travel many miles around to the nearest interchange or bridge to navigate back to their destination, then it wouldn't of been a problem. The NRA have made it pretty difficult for them.

How about some concrete facts here?

mysterious wrote: »

The NRA, closed many of the old local roads that cross the path of the HQDC, and gave farmers the alternative of using the HQDC instead to get to their locality. Now the farmers are been told that they local accesses have been removed and they now can't use the HQDC as it's been reclassified.

Again, some facts here would be nice. There are no local accesses (ie access solely for the farmer's use) off the Athlone Bypass or any other dual carriageway. Local roads might be closed but the detour/diversion would be of the order 1-2km, in some exceptional circumstances this might be longer, but generally not greater than 1-2km.

The facts are; if a farmer's lands are severed by a motorway/dual carriageway then those lands must be made accessible via an underpass (visible on nearly every scheme nowdays), an overbridge (M9/M10 Carlow Bypass for example) or using the local road network. If the lands are not made accessible then the severance is 100% and the lands are acquired as part of the scheme and may be incorporated into the works or sold off at a later date.

mysterious

The Word Is Bor wrote: »

How about some concrete facts here?

What do you want to me prove, the grass is green

what exact concrete evidence do you want

All HQDC, were not under motorway oders and all hqdcs allowed farm vehicles on them. If you dont know this then you really dont know much about this topic.

Since this was the way to go, the NRA didnt bother building many underpasses as tractors could use the existing interchanges and road itself

Now after these HDQC are built the NRA are reclassisfying them as motorways, so the facts are appearing in front of your eyes. Farmers and local politicians are not happy about it.

Foe some facts go out and see the cureent DCs yourself they are been changed to motorway already.

I'm not sure what kind of concrete facts your looking for cus what your asking is what everyone else knows. good god:D

read up the Nenagh to limerick plans and there will be much info of te local opposition to it been a motorway way back in 1999.

Again, some facts here would be nice. There are no local accesses (ie access solely for the farmer's use) off the Athlone Bypass or any other dual carriageway. Local roads might be closed but the detour/diversion would be of the order 1-2km, in some exceptional circumstances this might be longer, but generally not greater than 1-2km.

Right and what?

The facts are; if a farmer's lands are severed by a motorway/dual carriageway then those lands must be made accessible via an underpass (visible on nearly every scheme nowdays), an overbridge (M9/M10 Carlow Bypass for example) or using the local road network. If the lands are not made accessible then the severance is 100% and the lands are acquired as part of the scheme and may be incorporated into the works or sold off at a later date.

right and what?

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

I really don't. Money could be spent elsewhere upgrading roads.


There is an obsession in this country, to turn every DC into motorways. Enough of it already.

The only reclassifications should be The N6/7/8/9 and that it is it. The athlone bypass should not be reclassified either. All local traffic and learners have to negoiate their way through Athlone town. That is not acceptable. Speed limit will stay 100kmh. So there is no point putting motorway restrictions here. There is a large amount of local traffic use this bypass since its the second crossing over the Shannon.

The glanmire bypass was built as DC, it should not be reclassified. It has steep curves. Therefore stays as DC.

This is getting over the top, wanting blue roads everywhere. It's nonsense.

Right now hold on a minute, you are pointing out the N6/N7/N8 only be redesignated but there are also other high quality dual carriageways built outside of the inter urbans. Why should these not get redesignated? There are built to same type of standard so please tell us all why they should not be redesignated?

These are all built to ensure farmers/learners whatever have an alternative route to travel and plenty overbridges provided.

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

Farmers and local politicians are not happy about it.

Foe some facts go out and see the cureent DCs yourself they are been changed to motorway already.

Now your having a laugh. The NRA clearly pointed out years ago that when a high quality dual carriageway will be constructed it will be more than likely be redesignated motorway. If politicians were doing their jobs right they would have seen all this before the road was even constructed.

I find it madness that after all the billions we spent building these motorway standard roads that they might not be be redesignated motorway.

I'm not sure what kind of concrete facts your looking for cus what your asking is what everyone else knows. good god:D

The word is bor was referring to giving us hard facts that the farmers wouldnt be able to access their land. Now back up your rants by showing some prime examples that farmers wouldnt be able to access their land on dual carriageways to be redesignated before you continue waffling on. And dont mention the athlone bypass I dont think it should be motorway myself.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

Now your having a laugh. The NRA clearly pointed out years ago that when a high quality dual carriageway will be constructed it will be more than likely be redesignated motorway. If politicians were doing their jobs right they would have seen all this before the road was even constructed.

I find it madness that after all the billions we spent building these motorway standard roads that they might not be be redesignated motorway.



The word is bor was referring to giving us hard facts that the farmers wouldnt be able to access their land. Now back up your rants by showing some prime examples that farmers wouldnt be able to access their land on dual carriageways to be redesignated before you continue waffling on. And dont mention the athlone bypass I dont think it should be motorway myself.

The Nenagh to Limerick route was one I mentioned twice. I said when it was in plannin it was meant to be motorway. But it was stopped because teh farmers and locals didn't agree with the lack of underpasses. It was then changed to HQDC. So they could use the DC. So this is why the Nenagh to Limerick became HQDC. This is a local example. There could be more.

There is not many bridges and underpasses on this route. Now it's been reclassified to motorway. So the farmers and locals have lost both ends of the stick.

Btw what routes other than the N6/7/8/9/17/18/20 do you want reclassified too?

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

The Nenagh to Limerick route was one I mentioned twice. I said when it was in plannin it was meant to be motorway. But it was stopped because teh farmers and locals didn't agree with the lack of underpasses. It was then changed to HQDC. So they could use the DC. So this is why the Nenagh to Limerick became HQDC. This is a local example. There could be more.

A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.

Btw what routes other than the N6/7/8/9/17/18/20 do you want reclassified too?

No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.

mysterious

tech2 wrote: »

A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.



No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.

Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

veryangryman

I think Athlone is a bit unique as bypasses go. We have 6 (count em) accesses to the town.

Compare to Naas, Drogheda, Dundalk etc. Only 2 or 3 accesses, so Motorway traffic can continue at speed without batting an eyelid

To make Athlone Motorway, you would need to upgrade Roscommon Exit, close Coosan and Tuam and perhaps even the 2 Ballymahon Exits.

This would leave us with eastern access at Kilmartins and western access at Roscommon Road.

Which would p1ss off numerous existing businesses/locals

So i dont think it will ever happen TBH. You only lose 2 minutes max on this road being 100KMPH as it is. And most people doing the full Dub-Gal stint tend to stop in Kilmartins/Apple Green anyway

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

The 10km of dual carriageway from the colllooney roundabout to the roundabout coming into sligo I am referring to. Of course any futher would be laughable with traffic lights. Why not? There is an alternative route into the town from collooney. The junctions are safe for motorway.

veryangryman

mysterious wrote: »

Why would the Sligo inner relief road get it too, it has a roundabout on one end and crosses a bridge with traffic lights.

This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

Oh yeh..bypass that town baby!

Zoney

mysterious wrote: »

This country is laughable, and clearly becoming a sexual obsession for every road to become a motorway:rolleyes:

What about supporting a multi-billion euro Dublin Eastern Bypass then...?

I would argue that opposition to the motorway reclassification plans are more symptomatic of regressive tendencies in this country - certainly as regards those agreeing with the objectors (as I said before, one can hardly blame the objectors themselves).

roosterman71

Here are my 2 europennies worth:

Firstly, if these roads were built as DC, then local access for farmers via over/under passes probably weren't built. So their concerns are very valid in this case. Property developers and the like can go whistle. They'd be better off trying to sell what they have at some reasonable price instead of speculating about future building sites.

The Athlone situation is going to be a problem because once the Athlone/Galway road is built, it will be an M road. So from Galway to Leixlip will be motorway, with a small section of DC in the middle around Athlone. Not a good idea, but not easy to change. The fact that the main/only route through Athlone town is no wider than a country lane would cause all sorts of problems in the town.

Amtmann

tech2 wrote: »

A lack of underpasses but not necessarily no underpasses. They are probably complaining about 2 or 3km of extra distance to access their land.



No you mentioned that only N6/N7 and N8 be redesignated. Anyway these are other candidates in the future: N7 tunnel and the N4 sligo inner relief road for redesignation also.

In fact, there are very few overbridges on this (the Nenagh to Limerick) scheme, precisely because there are so many underpasses. I drove the length of this recently and was quite annoyed that it was so hard to find an overbridge from which I could photograph the mainline. Bottom line, there is no problem with access on the M7 N-L . Farmers have adequate access.

Amtmann

Well, on the subject of the Glamire Bypass this morning I was heading northbound around one of those tightish bends and, lo and behold, a jeep with a camper van was overturned on the carriageway, completely blocking the hard shoulder, inside lane, and half the overtaking lane. Was not expecting that. Thankfully I was doing 100 km/h (i.e. the limit), and thankfully the car in front of me had good brakes. There were no Gardai on the scene. I'm sorry I didn't have to stop (a picture would have been cool), and thankfully no-one seemed hurt. I called it in to 96FM after I passed by. But this particular section should definitely be motorway, albeit with a 100 km/h limit. An L-driver might not have been able to respond quickly enough. This could have been potentially very serious.

Tech3

Furet wrote: »

In fact, there are very few overbridges on this (the Nenagh to Limerick) scheme, precisely because there are so many underpasses. I drove the length of this recently and was quite annoyed that it was so hard to find an overbridge from which I could photograph the mainline. Bottom line, there is no problem with access on the M7 N-L . Farmers have adequate access.

Well that should be ok to go thankfully but I had another look at the report and it didnt actually say which routes are being complained about. I hope all the interurbans arnt affected at least. Maybe we should make up a list of the ones which might be affected?

The Athlone bypass looks to be a problem for redesignation for a start. Im sure any HQDC are fine and were designed for motorway standards including for local traffic that couldnt drive the road. I think were more looking at some of the standard dcs that might not get redesignated.

roosterman71

Anyone who thinks that a DC runs right along the side of an existing N road is deluded. No DC is built beside the existing road. They often come close, but usually can be up to 5/6 miles away from the existing road. The fact that farmers can currently drive along a DC to bridge, and then on down a back road will change. The may now have to travel a few miles to the old road, more miles along that to get to the road over the DC and carry on. Anyone who is now facing into this scenario isn't going to be happy about being banned off a road.

Also, all this anti-culchie bull is sickening. Some people on here can't see it from an affected persons point of view. Instead its rant and rave about farmers/boggers/red necks who are being told that the way they work is being fundamentally changed by a beuracratic decision which hasn't taken their concerns - valid or not - into account.

Amtmann

roosterman71 wrote: »

Anyone who thinks that a DC runs right along the side of an existing N road is deluded. No DC is built beside the existing road. They often come close, but usually can be up to 5/6 miles away from the existing road.

Specific examples please.

(Also, I'm a culchie myself.)

Amtmann

roosterman71 wrote: »

No DC is built beside the existing road.

Also, the above statement is completely untrue. Just look at any up-to-date map.

roosterman71

The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)
This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

They're the ones I know of anyway.

Amtmann

roosterman71 wrote: »

The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

First, and with respect, your idea of "a good spin" is a good bit less than five or six miles. You're obviously not looking at the scale on any of the maps properly. Just look at the M7 on Google Earth - it's a maximum distance of 3km from old road to the motorway at the Monasterevin bypass. This is an irrelevent example on another level too - the M7 isn't up for redesignation.

The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)

It is not "a good trip" away! It is roughly parallel, and an absolute maximum of 4km (not miles) away from the old N7 at its furthest point, and that's to say nothing of the network of L- and R-roads that exist much closer anyway, and which you can be sure have accomodated these roads through a multitude of overbridges and underpasses.

This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

Again, this is not "5 or 6 miles away" from the old N7. Look at it again. In fact, it's funny you mention Toomevara - because I actually went there to view the M7 from the current N7. It's a three minute spin from the village down an L-road at 60km/h. Second, again, you make no reference to the many accomodation works provided in the form of overpasses and underpasses.

M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

Then this has no bearing on farmers whose land is on the existing N6, does it? And there's a perfectly good R-road at Athenry plus, again, plenty of overbridges and underpasses are being built to facilitate local people

They're the ones I know of anyway.

Yeah. So why did you say I was "deluding myself" when you said "no DC is built beside the old N road" (or words to that effect)? Bar one bit of the M6, they all are ffs!

BluntGuy

First of all, I am fully in support of all stretches being redesignated.

Second, there has been a lot of rambling on in this thread about "facts". Well let me give you all two REAL facts with REAL evidence.

- I would like to dispell the myth that not redesignating will save us money. It will NOT. New signage is being put up regardless of redesignation. The color of the signage will depend on whether the stretches are accepted or not. You may refer to the motorway redesignation thread if you require evidence of my source.

- Farm accomodation structures are provided reasonably on most stretches in question, as well as plenty of overbridges. Look up the EIS plans if you don't believe me. IF there is a genuine case where there is not a reasonably efficient manner of accessing land after redesgination, then that can be sorted either using an engineering option (if cost-effective) or with a compensation package.

Third, while I can sympthasize with the farmers, they need to realize that the safety of the road users', restricting the road from development and (in some cases) the reduced journey time is FAR MORE important than them having to spend an extra fifteen minutes to get from A to B. People need to look at the bigger picture. This single-minded, individual thinking is what is ruining the country. It's why we have the present mess of a government and it's why (ultimately) some of these roads may not get redesignated - despite the fact that all safety indicators and even common sense dictate that they should. People need to stop thinking about themselves all the time.

The Athlone Bypass is a bypass, and while I feel that a new relief road is urgently needed, it doesn't change the fact that it is a DC that is soon to be part of a motorway network, and motorway networks are for long-distance, high-speed traffic. Does anyone here honestly think that somebody cycling their bike, walking their dog, slugging along in their tractor etc. will be SAFE behaviour? If you do then you're utterly and completely deluded. (And no, the hard shoulder isn't an extra lane exclusively for the use of slow vehicles - a misconception a lot of farmers seem to have from my experience).

Face it, there are plenty of other towns in Ireland with and without bypasses that have tractors trundling through them every day (perhaps not as busy as Athlone, but the point remains the same). It's just something that has to be accepted. And I think some of us are overestimating the negative impact here entirely. This will not affect the vast majority of drivers in a negative way. The majority of people who will not be allowed to use the stretches are people, who, in fairness, should not be entitled to use them anyway for safety reasons. I still find it astonishing that the SRR in Cork doesn't have restrictions on it. Traffic zooms by... 120 km/h, but someone can still happily walk their dog on it.

With all that mind, I would have to conclude that the positive impacts far outweigh the negative ones. True, some will have to suffer. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. The "collective good", so they call it. I can understand the reluctance from some, but I sincerely hope the DoT makes the right decision.

roosterman71 - their concerns are being taken into account. Two public consultations were held where people were given the chance to submit their concerns. If their concerns weren't being taken into account then the DoT wouldn't be examining the issues and would just press straight ahead with the redesignation.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

The Athlone Bypass is a bypass, and while I feel that a new relief road is urgently needed, it doesn't change the fact that it is a DC that is soon to be part of a motorway network, and motorway networks are for long-distance, high-speed traffic. Does anyone here honestly think that somebody cycling their bike, walking their dog, slugging along in their tractor etc. will be SAFE behaviour? If you do then you're utterly and completely deluded. (And no, the hard shoulder isn't an extra lane exclusively for the use of slow vehicles - a misconception a lot of farmers seem to have from my experience).

Well while I agree with all that you have said, there is still no scope for Athlone bypass getting redesignated.

Sorry to blow a fuse on that one. It's not about farmers, it's about the design and safety of the bypass.

Face it, there are plenty of other towns in Ireland with and without bypasses that have tractors trundling through them every day (perhaps not as busy as Athlone, but the point remains the same). It's just something that has to be accepted. And I think some of us are overestimating the negative impact here entirely. This will not affect the vast majority of drivers in a negative way. The majority of people who will not be allowed to use the stretches are people, who, in fairness, should not be entitled to use them anyway for safety reasons. I still find it astonishing that the SRR in Cork doesn't have restrictions on it. Traffic zooms by... 120 km/h, but someone can still happily walk their dog on it.

Cus, A it was never built as a motorway. B. It was built as a southern relief road for the southern suburbs of Cork back in the 80s. It's actually an urban dual carriegway.

People need to get their facts straight. It's only since the late 90s since it actually became a ring road where it now joins the N22 and N8 on either end. It has roundabouts, traffic lights and local accesses off it.

Why do you think it should have restrictions on it. Is there an alternative route? Is there a 120kmh speed limit? is it free flowing?

Why the fup is everyone having this delusional sense that every DC we build in this country should have restrictions. It's getting really pathetic, and bluntguy you are also supporting this bandwagon too. It shouldn't be given motorway restrictions, not until it has motorway charististics and up to this standard.

Why is it that we have to have every route designated to motorway, when it has a dual lane road. There are more dual carriegways in the UK than there is motorways, does this mean all DC over there should be changed to motorways aswel?

mysterious

roosterman71 wrote: »

The Portlaoise bypass, all the way to kildare is a good spin away from the old N7

The new M7 from Portlaoise to Nenagh is a good trip from the old road too (this has some bridges and underpasses built so maybe not relevent to this arguement)
This map shows the distance the new road is from the existing road at Toomevara.
Page 6 of this doc gives a better view of the Castletown-Nenagh section of the new M7

M6 athlone to Galway is going miles from the existing road

They're the ones I know of anyway.

I'm so glad pulled your up on your so called "facts" cus I was going to explode literally by the amount of horsepoo I actually read.

Seriously though, do you actually think before you type this? its so untrue it's silly. Better still to double check, have you actually travelled on the M7 or R445 seen how close they are??. When I'm on the bus coming from Dublin I can see the M7 for most of it's length the whole way down. The old runs practically right beside from Newbridge to Monasterevin. After that you dont see it till Ballybrittas as Furet has just stated. all the motorways actually run to close to the old roads for my liking. We would have a much better integrated motorway system if we had built in a radial grid system connecting the main towns and cities and not having to snake beside every single old national primary route accross the country.

But really, rooter everyone of your points are woefully wrong.


Anyway got a bit off topic.
Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?

Safety. It is no place for learners, cyclists, pedestrians or slow vehicles and there WILL be deaths if they're on it.

BluntGuy

mysterious wrote: »

Cus, A it was never built as a motorway. B. It was built as a southern relief road for the southern suburbs of Cork back in the 80s. It's actually an urban dual carriegway.

I don't want the SRR to be motorway, I said I find it astonishing it doesn't have "restrictions". Anyway, I don't want to get too deep into it since it isn't up for redesignation anyway.

Why the fup is everyone having this delusional sense that every DC we build in this country should have restrictions. It's getting really pathetic, and bluntguy you are also supporting this bandwagon too. It shouldn't be given motorway restrictions, not until it has motorway charististics and up to this standard.

I could argue that I find it pathetic that a group of people are determined to lobby in favour of inappropiate development and farmers not having 20 extra minutes to get from A to B over increased safety, reduced journey time and protection from developers. All routes to be redesignated are near-motorway standard. Are you suggesting otherwise? Do you really think just because a route has a few LILOs, something many other countries have NO problem with, tractors should be allowed to clutter it up?

I never suggested that all DCs should be changed to motorways, you put those words in my mouth. There is no bandwagon to be jumped on. The routes suitable for redesignation were picked, and the intention of all routes in question is to cater for long-distance traffic (with the exception of the N3) - the PURPOSE OF A MOTORWAY.

Why is it that we have to have every route designated to motorway, when it has a dual lane road. There are more dual carriegways in the UK than there is motorways, does this mean all DC over there should be changed to motorways aswel?

Again, nobody suggested this except you. And there are plenty of DCs in the UK perfectly capable of being motorway and many that arguably should be redesignated.

Anyone still want the Athlone bypass redesignated. If so why, I would like valid reasons?

I gave you a bucket of 'em just there... take your pick.

L1011

BluntGuy wrote: »

Again, nobody suggested this except you. And there are plenty of DCs in the UK perfectly capable of being motorway and many that arguably should be redesignated.

Redesignation doesn't have the speed advantage in the UK; however... but there are definately long stretches of HQDC that would be blue'd up over here but won't be in the UK due to the very strong anti-road lobby. Sections of the A27; most of the A55 come to mind.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

Safety. It is no place for learners, cyclists, pedestrians or slow vehicles and there WILL be deaths if they're on it.

So learners can't be allowed now on the Athlone bypass, since it's speed limit is only 100kmh. This is getting very silly. Silly would be the word

Pedestrians don't walk on the Athlone bypass. Nor have I ever seen slow vehicles on it, the same way I never see slow vehicles on the motorway towards Dublin.


The problem with the Athlone bypass it isn't up to spec, so it doesnt get redesignated, it is not because of farmers, leaners or people walking their dog. Since it's not a motorway, it's perfectly ok in my books that learners and tractors use this road like they are allowed to use the current N6. You can't go very fast on the Athlone bypass unless you risk your life.

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

So learners can't be allowed now on the Athlone bypass, since it's speed limit is only 100kmh. This is getting very silly. Silly would be the word

Pedestrians don't walk on the Athlone bypass. Nor have I ever seen slow vehicles on it, the same way I never see slow vehicles on the motorway towards Dublin.

How often do you *use* the road? I've seen slow vehicles on it frequently. I've overtaken someone on a HORSE on it.

Anyway, you have somewhat damaged some of your argument here - if slow vehicles never use it, what problem is there making these non-existant vehicles go through the town then?

BluntGuy

mysterious wrote: »

The problem with the Athlone bypass it isn't up to spec, so it doesnt get redesignated, it is not because of farmers, leaners or people walking their dog. Since it's not a motorway, it's perfectly ok in my books that learners and tractors use this road like they are allowed to use the current N6. You can't go very fast on the Athlone bypass unless you risk your life.

The Athlone Bypass isn't up to spec? What standards are you basing this on?

ardmacha

Perhaps Sinn Féin are behind this, their minister seems to think it appropriate for the Newry bypass not to be motorway so as not to inconvenience farmers and the like.

L1011

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps Sinn Féin are behind this, their minister seems to think it appropriate for the Newry bypass not to be motorway so as not to inconvenience farmers and the like.

If the new Newry bypass was motorway, there'd still be a small gap between it and our M1 due to no alternative route between two junctions as the old road was subsumed...

BluntGuy

I would like to know how many farmers are actually going to be genuinely affected (not those who are going to have 3 minutes added to their journey and are just seeking to grab a bit of compo money). I can almost garuntee you it will be a very low figure, and there will be viable compensation packages available to them.

ardmacha

If the new Newry bypass was motorway, there'd still be a small gap between it and our M1 due to no alternative route between two junctions as the old road was subsumed...

What gap? Yes the old N1 was subsumed into the new N1 at Dromod but there is a minor road parallel at this point. This road is fine for the little traffic that cannot use motorways and could be improved a little if need be.

This is a political thing, nothing to do with alternative routes.

Amtmann

BluntGuy wrote: »

I would like to know how many farmers are actually going to be genuinely affected (not those who are going to have 3 minutes added to their journey and are just seeking to grab a bit of compo money). I can almost garuntee you it will be a very low figure, and there will be viable compensation packages available to them.

I get the feeling it's more the county councilors who are doing the objecting on behalf of their developer buddies. But rather than saying that directly, it sounds better if they harp on about farmers and L drivers instead.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

The Athlone Bypass isn't up to spec? What standards are you basing this on?

It is fairly curved, with 4/5 interchnages all within a few km. and much weaving movments. It has a bridge with no HS.

Most motorways don't have tightly spaced junctions.

What spec are you basing on? why is there need to turn every DC into a motorway. Blunt you are one of the guys here that are over the top with this wanting blue roads all over the map. If it's not up to the spec. It is not up to the spec. This route is far to dangerous to be motorway and the route must stay at 100kmh.

If this route was upgraded and weaving/local traffic was separated maybe. The Athlone bypass is still fairly curved in comparison to the latter of the whole N6 route. I don't think it should get the 120kmh speed either.

The Athlone bypass isn't motorway and I just don't see the point in spending millions putting up blue signs here either.

BluntGuy

mysterious wrote: »

It is fairly curved, with 4/5 interchnages all within a few km. and much weaving movments. It has a bridge with no HS.

A bridge with no hard shoulder? There are tonnes are motorways in the UK that have bridges where the H/S dissappears, and if that's so important to you, then it's even more reason for cyclists/tractors to be restricted from using the road since it makes it even more dangerous for them.

The Athlone Bypass doesn't need the full 120 km/h speed limit, just restrictions to make it safer. The actual road itself (with re-surfacing) is of a reasonable build-quality. The close interchanges we can do nothing about at this stage, but it still doesn't mean the road shouldn't be M.

The Athlone Bypass is below normal specifications for a motorway, but certainly it isn't below spec to be redesginated. It is a reasonable grade-seperated dual carriageway with no accesses, and that's all it needs to be. Restrictions are for safety purposes, consistency purposes and to protect the road from development. Not to make a map look nice.

What spec are you basing on? why is there need to turn every DC into a motorway. Blunt you are one of the guys here that are over the top with this wanting blue roads all over the map. If it's not up to the spec. It is not up to the spec. This route is far to dangerous to be motorway and the route must stay at 100kmh.

Again, putting words in my mouth. Must I quote myself:

BluntGuy wrote:

I never suggested that all DCs should be changed to motorways, you put those words in my mouth. There is no bandwagon to be jumped on. The routes suitable for redesignation were picked, and the intention of all routes in question is to cater for long-distance traffic (with the exception of the N3) - the PURPOSE OF A MOTORWAY.

Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.

Your contiunal assertion that the Athlone Bypass is below spec is an invalid reason not to redesignate it in light of the benefits it would have.

The Athlone bypass isn't motorway and I just don't see the point in spending millions putting up blue signs here either.

Read my post...

BluntGuy wrote:

I would like to dispell the myth that not redesignating will save us money. It will NOT. New signage is being put up regardless of redesignation. The color of the signage will depend on whether the stretches are accepted or not. You may refer to the motorway redesignation thread if you require evidence of my source.

So that "money-wasting" argument (which I'm sure the councillors will use at some stage) is blown out the window I'm afraid.

mysterious

So why do you want learners of this road. The road is going to be 100kmh. same as the existing N6. Why should learners have to get off here and go through the town instead? Since the Athlone is a crossing point of the Shannon and caters for the demand of all purpose traffic, I can't see how this is justified. Your ok with this road not getting blue signs.


Cus bull**** aside, I do know this is what you want. A blue Athlone bypass. The restrictions are not justified. The speed limit is lower for a valid reason. Learners can therefore drive on it. It does not make it unsafer.

The Athlone bypass hasn't been issue or safety hazard since it opens, so why is there a sudden panick to want this be given restrictions


Motorway is it?:rolleyes::D
Bluntguy I'm sorry but this doesn't fool me.

Steviemak

Mysterious - I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

The Athlone Bypass doesn't need the full 120 km/h speed limit, just restrictions to make it safer. The actual road itself (with re-surfacing) is of a reasonable build-quality. The close interchanges we can do nothing about at this stage, but it still doesn't mean the road shouldn't be M.

There you said it yourself. You want it to be motorway, despite it been under spec.

Why I don't see the reason why it should be made motorway. I know why some people do though, cus it looks prettier on a map. :rolleyes:

The Athlone Bypass is below normal specifications for a motorway, but certainly it isn't below spec to be redesginated. It is a reasonable grade-seperated dual carriageway with no accesses, and that's all it needs to be. Restrictions are for safety purposes, consistency purposes and to protect the road from development. Not to make a map look nice.

Yes learner drivers and the odd few tractors. Give me a break.......

I'm sorry but your argument is "screaming I want a blue road"

Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.

Then it doesn't need to redesignated.

Your contiunal assertion that the Athlone Bypass is below spec is an invalid reason not to redesignate it in light of the benefits it would have.

Tell that to a learner driver. See what he says, have to go through the town or do a 20mile round trip to cross the Shannon. I don't think there is any safety concern allowing them to still use the Athlone bypass, It's not a motorway and you can't really go fast on it

So what is the problem?

Still want a blue road eh?:D

mysterious

Steviemak wrote: »

Mysterious - I couldn't disagree with you more on this issue.

Well I'm sorry you feel that way.:)

I like to be realistic. There are people here screaming I want blue roads all over the map. I'm saying yes, we can have all HQDC redesignated.

Not all existing DC, and not roads like existing N11. Not the Athlone bypass etc. They are not up to the spec. They were built as all purpose DC. These routes I mentioned carry a large volume of local traffic. These routes have never had safety issues. These routes were fine with learners and what not using them. They have a lower speed limit.

This thread is screaming I want blue motorways and thats it, without taking consideration for all sides here. You don't just go hey I want N54 motorway now, and expect local traffic, farmers and learners to just suddenly find other ways to get around locally if this is the road they haven been travelling for years.

I'm not here to plead like a road nerd. I'm here to see a bit of balance on this front.

SeanW

Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?

The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.

The ONLY effects of redesignating the bypass to Motorway will be:

1. Continuous M6 from the junction at Kinnegad to the outer limits of Galway City, instead of our own Cumberland Gap.
2. Traffic not suited to a major dual carriageway (law abiding L drivers, tractors, cyclists, animals etc) will be forbidden.
3. No inapproprate developments can be given planning permission along the route, so no repeat of the Kew Gardens/Mahon Point fiasco.

I really don't get why any rational person would have a problem with this.

BluntGuy

mysterious wrote:

The Athlone bypass hasn't been issue or safety hazard since it opens, so why is there a sudden panick to want this be given restrictions

Because, unless you haven't noticed, the Athlone Bypass is going to be sandwhiched between two pieces of 120 km/h M6 MOTORWAY. What is so difficult to understand about that? The Athlone Bypass isn't a piece of winding single carriageway, it is a relatively apt piece of grade-seperated DC. There is little justification for a cumberland gap when there is an alternative route available. It may not be an alternative certain people fancy using, but it's there none-the-less.

There you said it yourself. You want it to be motorway, despite it been under spec.

You want it to be D2AP, despite the fact that logic dicates that as part of (mostly) motorway national route it should also be motorway.

Your reply to:

BluntGuy wrote:

Btw, I never suggested that the speed limit on the Athlone Bypass be increased.

mysterious wrote:

Then it doesn't need to redesignated.

Do you want me to go into how little sense that makes?

Your point about learner drivers is invalid as well. They can simply get the accompanying driver to drive should they want to use the M6 Athlone Bypass. It's not difficult.

And how many learner drivers use the bypass btw? Do you actually know? Because I'm reckoning it isn't all that many.

Irish and Proud

SeanW wrote: »

Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?

I don't think he hates motorways - it's just that he wants them to exacting standards which is correct to a point, but...

SeanW wrote: »

The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.

...yes, developers behaving like children is an urgent matter, especially when safety and efficiency on our major national routes is being compromised. Yes, we would all like perfect motorways with hard shoulders, proper slips and 120kph signs all the way - but imperfect motorways are better than major dual carriageways being turned into glorified distributer roads with morons doing 50-60kph, an access for every estate in the vicinity and so on...

Of course, the speed limit should be reduced to 100kph where there are any imperfections such as LILOs (ie. N18) and H/S omissions until same are rectified - within five years that is!

Regards!

mysterious

SeanW wrote: »

Mysterious why do you hate motorways so much? What is wrong with having a national network of motorways instead of patchy bits of alternating blue and green?

The main reason I now prefer motorway over any form of N-regulated grade separated dual carriageway is to protect the long distance road from inapporpriate development (Mahon Point in Cork, Kew Gardens on the N4 etc. etc etc. History has shown that declaring a DC motorway is the only way to protect it from this kind of abuse. The road is and always has been the Athlone Bypass. No Grade Separated Junctions are due to be closed AFAIK and there are fewer L drivers on the roads and those that remain probably do not have L plates on anyway.

The ONLY effects of redesignating the bypass to Motorway will be:

1. Continuous M6 from the junction at Kinnegad to the outer limits of Galway City, instead of our own Cumberland Gap.
2. Traffic not suited to a major dual carriageway (law abiding L drivers, tractors, cyclists, animals etc) will be forbidden.
3. No inapproprate developments can be given planning permission along the route, so no repeat of the Kew Gardens/Mahon Point fiasco.

I really don't get why any rational person would have a problem with this.

Never used the word hate on this thread Alot of the A1 in England is motorway, mixed with DC, because certain parts are not up to motorway.

May I add certain DC parts have double the traffic than any DC on this Island.

Your again screaming the argument of a perfect blue road, regardless of some stretches been under spec.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

Because, unless you haven't noticed, the Athlone Bypass is going to be sandwhiched between two pieces of 120 km/h M6 MOTORWAY. What is so difficult to understand about that? The Athlone Bypass isn't a piece of winding single carriageway, it is a relatively apt piece of grade-seperated DC. There is little justification for a cumberland gap when there is an alternative route available. It may not be an alternative certain people fancy using, but it's there none-the-less.

Cumerbland gap is a rural grassland road where there is little urban sprawl the standard of the Cumberland gap would be alittle more superfior than the Athlone bypass, and anway its not Athlone and the N6 meeting at the shannon with one bridge. If you really want to compare, I can tell you for a fact, they wouldn't even bother upgrading this DC section at all. There are DC with over 100,000 vehicles a day in use in England. Cus of the nature of the bypass, it wouldn't even be a neccessaity to change it into a motorway.

The alternative route is not acceptable The bridge in Shannon can barely cope with the existing traffic. The alternative road goes through the medievel windy streets. There is no real benifet of reclassifieing this road, only than looking pretty on a map.

Your just arguing for the sake of a blue road regardless of any other point of view :rolleyes:

You want it to be D2AP, despite the fact that logic dicates that as part of (mostly) motorway national route it should also be motorway.

There are many discontinuous and starting motorways where it goes from DC to Motorway back and forth. Why is it such a big deal now all of a sudden.

Blue road on a map eh?:D

Your point about learner drivers is invalid as well. They can simply get the accompanying driver to drive should they want to use the M6 Athlone Bypass. It's not difficult.

The speed limit is 100kmh, I don't see what the issue is allowing learners onto this road, when they have been so for 19 years.

And how many learner drivers use the bypass btw? Do you actually know? Because I'm reckoning it isn't all that many.

Then leave it be.