National Strike off

mikemac

Impact rejecting strike action was probably a large part of this decision to postpone. And I mean postpone because we'll have the same situation in a month or two.

One of the teaching unions rejected strike action too I think.
They certainly didn't get everyone organized for March 30th

greendom

oscarBravo wrote: »

It worries me that such a major player in the economy needs to be treated like a petulant child.

Fair point, but I don't think the trade unions are worse than anyone else. Look at Cowen throwing his toys out of the pram over RTE's coverage of the naked photos as an example

leitrim lad

to mistik monkey,,,, private sector pays taxes ok,, public sector gets wages from those taxes they also pay their taxes from their wages , so they are tecknically not really paying tax , it is the private sector money just going around in one big circle, and i do not have an axe to grind ,i and other fellow voters voted for the government and they did not cause this mess ,it was a combination of wrekless lending, wanabe yupees, and unions who now have this country on its knees,,,,,,,,,,,,

Dr Galen

to mistik monkey,,,, private sector pays taxes ok,, public sector gets wages from those taxes they also pay their taxes from their wages , so they are tecknically not really paying tax ,

well thats a bit chicken and egg type scenario really, as you could say that using that sort of logic that the public sector worker actually pays a lump of their own wages through taxation. anyway we could go round all day on that one to no real end don't you think?

,i and other fellow voters voted for the government and they did not cause this mess ,it was a combination of wrekless lending, wanabe yupees, and unions who now have this country on its knees,,,,,,,,,,,,

So the current and previous governments, all of which included FF as the major major player, are blameless?

leitrim lad

if it wasnt for the last 3 governments wer wouldnt have nothen, the public sector has tripled since 1997, we have a road network nation wide , and similar rail, compare ireland to the uk, in the case of social welfare, ireland is 4 times more generous that the uk, and that is a comfort to anyone who has no job, so on that basis the government are not to blame, however i do agree that a very small minority of politicains are dodgy, and did take advantage (bribes and so on)and they are being punished for it, but the majority of the civernment is as good as you are going to get in this country anyway

Dr Galen

the public sector has tripled since 1997,

and who mandated that?

thats right, the government of the day

we have a road network nation wide ,

a lot of which was funded at least in part by EU structural funds

in the case of social welfare, ireland is 4 times more generous that the uk,

and a bill for this of about 20billion, a farcical situation IMO seeing as our tax take is going to settle at about 34 billion. We also have 40% of workers paying no tax at all, which again is a joke. All of which was put in place by the government

but the majority of the civernment is as good as you are going to get in this country anyway

it's sad that this is probably the only part of your post I agree with

deanswift

As a card carrying union member now for more years than I care to remember I deplore the calling off of one day's strike by ICTU.
The crisis in our country was NOT caused by workers either organised through unions or otherwise.
This crisis was caused by, as you all well know by greedy property developers and rogue bankers and all orchestrated by successive governments with an insatiable appetite for revenues from stamp duty.
This coming budget will be the fourth attempt by a disastrous government to get the budget for 2009 balanced.
Each and every member of government earns in excess of 5000euro per week.
This fact alone makes them the most overpaid group of people on the planet and in return they revel in their incompetency as witnessed regularly by their demeanour when viewed in the TV shots of Dail.
Workers are being penalised massively for the outright pilfering of money from the public purse by slumbag millionaire bankers enriching their pensions to the tune of millions of euro, though the share price of their banks they are paid to control have become worthless.
This is incompetency on a scale that beggars belief.
Were it possible to restore the jobs of Dell workers in Limerick or those of Waterford Glass or SR technix, all workers public and private would donate their salary to a fund to keep these positions.
How many so called pillars of Irish industry have made fortunes only to deprive the Irish taxsystem by channelling the proceeds through Italy or Isle of Man?
The worker has a right to make his views known by legally withdrawing his labour for one day.

oscarBravo

deanswift wrote: »

The worker has a right to make his views known by legally withdrawing his labour for one day.

Heaven forbid he'd make his views known at the ballot box come election day.

What's with the constant banging on about rights? Sure, you have the right to strike. What's at question is whether it's a useful thing to do.

Dr Galen

some people just don't get that subtle difference though do they?

ixoy

deanswift wrote: »

As a card carrying union member now for more years than I care to remember I deplore the calling off of one day's strike by ICTU.

Just out of curiosity, how do you think a one day strike would have helped sort out the economic woes? They'd still be there on Tuesday the 31st of March.

BroomBurner

I see the usual bile and vitriol cam spouting out of the crazies on this thread too! I'm referring to page one btw. Hardly a coherent arguement anywhere.

Anyway, I'm delighted the strike is off, 'cause I'm sick of all the tension. However, what still remains are the following facts:

Pension levy still unfairly weighted
Top brass in government still received a payrise
Bank workers still received a payrise and some received bonuses, even though they are not a profitable enterprise (evidenced by the €7billion bail-out)
Government still behaving as if nothing is happening - still no receipted expenses for top brass (unlike the rest of us), Ministers flying first class, no paycut for TDs, etc.

So, yeah, you can spout off about how much you hate the PS and how we're all a bunch of wasters that don't deserve our jobs and that all you unemployed people would love to have our jobs, blah blah blah, but you fail to recognise that we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. We have to bear the brunt of bad management decisions (and by management, I mean government), and the misplaced jealous hatred of some members of the private sector (please refer to numerous posts in this thread to see this).

leitrim lad

yes and the 20bn in the social welfare at the min is going to people who lost their jobs and more than likely have young families, and house to pay for, and yes public sector workers have that too ,but the people on the dole probably do more work then the public sector workers and you never hear of them wanting to strike,
take this example,,,,
my yard is broken into a van is stolen by a drugee up the road, i ring the gaurds, 3 days later they come out, all the way to tell me it is a civil matter.
and you tell me they are worth paying good money to

the cheek of ye to even consider strike, should be lucky to have a job, maybe if you did loose it you might take your union heads out of the clouds

ixoy

BroomBurner wrote: »

I see the usual bile and vitriol cam spouting out of the crazies on this thread too!

I'm a bit worried that my post about mass decapitations seemed to pass some people's irony filters...

However, what still remains are the following facts:

Pension levy still unfairly weighted

Agreed. Quick question: If relief on the levy was only at 20%, do you think people would feel a bit better? Or would it also still have to be widened? I believe with a bit of jigging the levy could still bring in the same (if not more) and have an appearance of being fairer.

Top brass in government still received a payrise

Ridiculous wasn't it? I could sense the anger over that one - it was a right two fingers to the other public sector workers.

For what it's worth I think there should be a proper pay freeze in place - that includes increments which are still going on (people's pay increased around me). Then we could look at maybe revolutionizing the concept of increments and introducing a merit-based aspect. Of course pigs will probably fly over the frozen lakes of Hell first, but I do genuinely think it would be - long term - a good approach.

Bank workers still received a payrise and some received bonuses, even though they are not a profitable enterprise (evidenced by the €7billion bail-out)

I wonder if they could emulate what the US government did - a 90% tax on bonuses? It's a great populist idea and I think something similar here would go down well.

Government still behaving as if nothing is happening - still no receipted expenses for top brass (unlike the rest of us), Ministers flying first class, no paycut for TDs, etc.

True - they need to lead by example. Now of course that still wouldn't change the deficit or need to increase taxes or make cuts but would you reckon, from the sentiment of those around you, that people would actually accept these changes if they felt leaders were practising what they preach?

leitrim lad

wel my opinion on the bankers is cap it at 40k per year and that is even too much for them, they do nothing pruductive day to day ,it is just a title to be an excecutive.
ministers should get the same allowance per mile as gaa players (example) and they should not have a fleet of new merc state cars, nobody wants to show off especially in these times,
their expences and total gross salary should be capped also at 40k per year, and then that would give grounds for the people in the public service to follow suit ,on that example and take the necessary cuts required by the state.

Galmay

Brian Cowen today continues to be one useless gobsh!te. Possibly the most incompetent political leader of all time.

He has obviously folded to the unions. The unions said they wanted to return to talks on economic recovery all along and that they were striking for that reason and to protest government mis-management of the crisis including the unbalanced pension levy. They have gotten exactly what they wanted.

True, if the strike went ahead ignored it may escalate quickly but it wouldnt be long before it was seen as unsupported not only in the general population but within the public sector staff too, thus making it not only futile but weakening the union position.

I work in the PS as a health professional and I did not want to go on strike(not only because I think its wet on Monday!). I would support a protest without hesitation if the union made justifiable demands such as ending all the sickening waste in the HSE, the multitude of duplicated managers and deputy managers and their fancy hired out offices, the outrages cuts on junior docs (Im not one of them btw!), demanded an end to cutting areas such as further education supports for front line staff while continuing with useless team building and how to have successful meetings crap courses that we get 2 or 3 emails about a day, there is a huge long list of stuff I could rant on about.
Point is, the unions are out of touch and shouting at the government about all the wrong things, and just as importantly, Brian Cowen is pathetic.

irish_bob

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

A decent leader, sensing the public opposition to the unions, would have called their bluff and let them strike. He would then be in a much stronger position. He should not have invited them to more long drawn out futile "discussions".

i completly agree , cowan has thrown the unions a lifeline , not because he was concerned for the economy but because he was concerned about fianna fail public sector voters having gone over to labour
id have perfered to have seen a strike and hence a viscious backlash against the ps
the unions will come out of this this sit down with the goverment still standing and with possibly the promise of a reverse to the levy when the good times return

party before country

leitrim lad

do you see alot of waste in the hse?

would it be on supplies that are not needed, or staff promotions

nesf

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

and a bill for this of about 20billion, a farcical situation IMO seeing as our tax take is going to settle at about 34 billion.

Keep in mind that that 20 billion is the bill for the entire Department of Social Welfare and Family (it was originally estimated at 19 billion for 2009 then revised upwards to just over 20, I wouldn't be surprised if it went well over 20 billion unless action is taken).

You're talking about everything from the dole and "Back to Work" schemes to the old age pension, blind pension, child allowance etc.

irish_bob

leitrim lad wrote: »

do you see alot of waste in the hse?

would it be on supplies that are not needed, or staff promotions

sorry to speak for someone else but i imagine he or she means the layers of beauracracy that exist for no reason other than to create jobs for those who work within that beauracracy

leitrim lad

and what about say the foreign doctors in hospitals, are they recruited here for their cheap labor or is this an attractive country for them to work in ,ie slalary wise , do we not have enough doctors and nurses of our own who are now either looking or already gone to places like australia, and im not hitting one particular section but the average wage of a gaurd is €1,000 p/w ,now i know that is not the case with every member but on average that could be halved in times like this.

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

fair play ixoy , the power needs to be shown to them shower in the ps/u ,who do they think they are,me and you pay there wages , we pay for them to waste our money around the country,they are not tax payers in the ps ,they are just putting our money around in a circle, and eventually it ends up in a pension for them ,they dont work hard, they dont deserve more money, they should be lucy to even be spongen off us proper tax payers in the first place

Eh, I don't want to rain on your parade, but you have outlined on other threads how you are a sub-contractor working on roads, rail, bridges, canals, rivers etc. Last time I checked the taxpayer paid for these.

As a genuine taxpayer, I am fed up with the likes of you sponging off me and not appreciating where your income is coming from.

leitrim lad

tax payer doesnt fund ppp schemes do they,and any contract i get is not sponged off the taxpayer ,it is very competitively tendered for and if it should run over time or budget it will incurr severe penalties on me not the tax payer,just wait and see how far the little talks go with the self ordained union leaders and our voted in government leaders

BroomBurner

ixoy wrote: »

I'm a bit worried that my post about mass decapitations seemed to pass some people's irony filters...


Agreed. Quick question: If relief on the levy was only at 20%, do you think people would feel a bit better? Or would it also still have to be widened? I believe with a bit of jigging the levy could still bring in the same (if not more) and have an appearance of being fairer.


Ridiculous wasn't it? I could sense the anger over that one - it was a right two fingers to the other public sector workers.

For what it's worth I think there should be a proper pay freeze in place - that includes increments which are still going on (people's pay increased around me). Then we could look at maybe revolutionizing the concept of increments and introducing a merit-based aspect. Of course pigs will probably fly over the frozen lakes of Hell first, but I do genuinely think it would be - long term - a good approach.


I wonder if they could emulate what the US government did - a 90% tax on bonuses? It's a great populist idea and I think something similar here would go down well.


True - they need to lead by example. Now of course that still wouldn't change the deficit or need to increase taxes or make cuts but would you reckon, from the sentiment of those around you, that people would actually accept these changes if they felt leaders were practising what they preach?

Lol I wasn't commenting on your mass decapitation, Ioxy! It was more some other posters comments.

Sure you know what my plans would be if I could get in to overhaul the system. Would save plenty also. However, until they do overhaul the increments system, why should they be frozen? How about just reducing them? I'm gonna be entirely selfish on that one, but that's because I'm at the bottom of said increment scale.

I would love to see Ireland doing what the US did, but will it happen? Look at how long it took them to send the Gardaí in to Anglo. The US had Madoff convicted in less time! This country is too small sometimes.

And definitely, our government should be leading by example.

To everyone who has given out about the unions and about the strike, etc., do you think that the government should be getting away with everything I have previously outlined? Do you excuse this type of behaviour? Why aren't you channelling your vitriol towards the government?

BroomBurner

leitrim lad wrote: »

tax payer doesnt fund ppp schemes do they,and any contract i get is not sponged off the taxpayer ,it is very competitively tendered for and if it should run over time or budget it will incurr severe penalties on me not the tax payer,just wait and see how far the little talks go with the self ordained union leaders and our voted in government leaders

PPP = Public Private Partnership

lmtduffy

I think alot of people here need to refocus their anger at the government not the ps or the unions.

The government are the ones who got us where we are today,

The government increased spending unaccountably and inefficiently every where not just public sector pay.

The unions as is their nature organise to defend and better the standing of their members, they support each other in the hard times and put the interests of the worker before that of the producer/government.

Now I agree they are over payed, but everyone in the economy became over payed.
The difference is the unions organised and are not going to let the government forget the mistakes they made in the past, and are giving them a hard time now as they try to correct them, and are not happy giving up wages until they know it will do some good and they are giving them up in an equitable fashion.

The problem that many people didnt organise and figured things are good why would they need to, the people in unions had the foresight to know good things don't last for ever and are now in a better position than most because of this.

they prepared in way the government should have, dont begrudge them for it, they will compromise when there government shows its competent to enough to use the resources their asking for.

lmtduffy

leitrim lad wrote: »

tax payer doesnt fund ppp schemes do they,and any contract i get is not sponged off the taxpayer ,it is very competitively tendered for and if it should run over time or budget it will incurr severe penalties on me not the tax payer,just wait and see how far the little talks go with the self ordained union leaders and our voted in government leaders

you mean democratically elected by those they represent and legally protected union leaders who get their mandate from workers and the government voted that now faces its lowest approval rating in history?

hawker

I don't usually like to post on these matters as I can see both points of view. Since 1987 the power of the Trade Union in Ireland has slowly but surely become more and more diluted. The pension levy, on/off strikes and people being generally less well off will force people to look at their wage packet and look for ways to save their money. One of the first things they will look at is their Union subs. It could be the beginning of a serious decline in Union membership over the coming years and I don't believe that is a good thing.

I'm amazed at the tunnel vision of some of the poster on here. Yes the public service needs to take their share of the pain but in no way should they take some the blame.

Leitrim Lad, you have a fierce chip on your shoulder regarding the ps/cs. Some of your posts are down right ridicilous. In fact I'd go as far as saying you are writing b.s. regarding the guards and the civil case.

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

tax payer doesnt fund ppp schemes do they,and any contract i get is not sponged off the taxpayer ,it is very competitively tendered for and if it should run over time or budget it will incurr severe penalties on me not the tax payer,just wait and see how far the little talks go with the self ordained union leaders and our voted in government leaders

Wake up here, you have already admitted to doing very well in the good times. You either managed that by taking super-normal profits or exploiting your non-unionised workforce, all at the expense of the taxpayer who will pay either now or in the future (PPPs) for that.

By the way, the first PPP was the WestLink toll-bridge which made huge amounts of unjustified profits for its private sector owners. The second was the Eastlink which is still making those profits for its private sector owners. All at the expense of the taxpayer.

leitrim lad

the partnership in a ppp is that it is majority privately funded ,used by the public and over a certain length of time the state buys it back,
i never exploited anyone in my life you go to work to do a days work not to dispute over whethar you should work or not, and im not having a go at the gaurds ,im stating my opinion that a grand a week average wgae in these times is twice too much,,,,,,,,,,,,and it is

BroomBurner

leitrim lad wrote: »

the partnership in a ppp is that it is majority privately funded ,used by the public and over a certain length of time the state buys it back,
i never exploited anyone in my life you go to work to do a days work not to dispute over whethar you should work or not, and im not having a go at the gaurds ,im stating my opinion that a grand a week average wgae in these times is twice too much,,,,,,,,,,,,and it is

Depends on what they doing for that grand a week. If they were working 16 hour shifts each day, putting their lives on the line, inadvertently destroying their personal life by pouring it all in to their worklife, then yeah, they deserve to earn a good bit of money. I would never begrudge someone a high wage if they were willing to put in the effort to earn it. I know there are spongers everywhere (so don't give a simple backchat-style answer to that one), but they tend to be in the minority.