New 5k tax for job security on better paid public servants

White dargo

ionix5891 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

hmm let me see if everyone worked for the state wouldn't that be some sort of communism?

we seen how that ended up, ahem :cool:

Where did you get "everyone" from what I wrote :rolleyes:. Read it again. Look for the words "some" and "people" in there. And if you really take the time to read it properly you'll understand it was a reference to some of the people on this thread. Everyone ffs .

Go back to school and learn to read. Good boy.

bobbbb

Instead of trying to bleed one sector and turning the whole population against each.
Why dont we just levy everyone some more. Say 10% on all income from 0 to the top. Including social welfare.

That way everybody pays. The more you earn the more you pay. The less you earn the less you pay. But everyone contributes.

And a tax on asking for a tax one someone else too

ArmaniJeanss

bobbbb wrote: »

Instead of trying to bleed one sector and turning the whole population against each.
Why dont we just levy everyone some more. Say 10% on all income from 0 to the top.

Because if you do it that way then the private sector would take a bigger hit than the public sector.

This has been explained 1000 times on this forum (mostly by Sam Vines.)

ionix5891

White dargo wrote: »

Where did you get "everyone" from what I wrote :rolleyes:. Read it again. Look for the words "some" and "people" in there. And if you really take the time to read it properly you'll understand it was a reference to some of the people on this thread. Everyone ffs .

Go back to school and learn to read. Good boy.

im sorry but im getting fairly pissed of with this public sector nonsense

of "why dont they join our party and stop complaining"

jebus christ I respect the jobs teachers, gardai etc do, but this sense of "entitlement" and the whole "were better than you so keep paying us alot" is maddening

your proposal for our bloated public sector is for more people to join THE BLOB! hahahahahaa

grahamo

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Because if you do it that way then the private sector would take a bigger hit than the public sector.

This has been explained 1000 times on this forum (mostly by Sam Vines.)

How would the private sector be taking a bigger hit than the public sector?
According to the bar stool economics posted on here, the public sector are paid vast amounts more than the private sector so by taking a percentage from everyone the public sector workers would pay more :rolleyes:

Oh Wait,Don't tell me, all the students posting on boards pay all the public sectors wages:rolleyes::rolleyes:

bobbbb

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Because if you do it that way then the private sector would take a bigger hit than the public sector.

This has been explained 1000 times on this forum (mostly by Sam Vines.)

There you go. Worrying about who takes the biggest hit as long as its not you. Not the way to solve the problems we have.

We must all sort this out together.

The first thing we have to do is get the deficit under control quickly. Then after that, its time to worry about the public sector.

You mean Sam (Im not willing to pay my share of the burden if i can get others to pay more) Vimes.

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

How would the private sector be taking a bigger hit than the public sector?

The new tax will be an effort to not only reduce government borrowing ( the government will still have to borrow 24 billion this year) but also to bring public sector wages - well those who earn more than the average public sector worker - in to line a little bit at least.

If I earned more than the 49 or 50 k per annum in the public sector which is the average, and I had job security, and a big pension to look forward to, as well as the other perks, I would not mind it, given the state of the economy.

The new tax will be a tax on the considerable perk of job security. If the well off people who it will appy to ( over 49k plus pension subsidised ) do not want to pay it, fine. They can join the private sector or else stay in the public sector perhaps until retirement ( if the govt / taxpayer still wants the ) or until they are let go ( if the govt -or the IMF if / when they move in - decides ).

jimmmy

bobbbb wrote: »

The first thing we have to do is get the deficit under control quickly. Then after that, its time to worry about the public sector.

You cannot get the deficit under control without tackling the public sector.....its amazing some people just do not see the scale of the problem. Even getting the guts of 150,000 public servants to pay an average of 5,000 euro each would only produce 3 % of the budget defecit.
The net effect on the economy would be even less, because of the less income tax , vat etc produced. It just goes to show the scale of the problem. Perhaps 10 or 15 k per person would be more realistic, and would at least help bring top public sector wages in to line with international levels. There would be no mass exodus from the public service - where else would they go ?

ArmaniJeanss

bobbbb wrote: »

There you go. Worrying about who takes the biggest hit as long as its not you. Not the way to solve the problems we have.

We must all sort this out together.

Agreed.
I was just pointing that fallacy in your argument that giving everyone (private and public) a 10% levy would count 'as sorting this out together'.

Look, the private sector have taken a ~12% reduction in staff numbers.
So the public sector should take the same (either in numbers of staff, or wages per staff) in order to redress this imbalance. Then we start to 'sort it out together'.

At what stage will you see that the private sector has already taken a bigger hit. Like if there was only 5000 people left employed in the private sector and xtimes that in the public sector would you still be thinking that the solution is to give everyone a 10% levy and that'll sort it?

White dargo

ionix5891 wrote: »

your proposal for our bloated public sector is for more people to join THE BLOB! hahahahahaa

I didn't say that either . Nowhere in my post did I suggest expanding the PS.

What I said, and read slowly now so you'll understand, is that if people on this thread think public service jobs are so great why have they not been applying for them themselves. I never said make more jobs. The "them" refers to existing jobs (not that there will be much of them for a while). Get it now:cool:

Oh and do me a favour, don't bother to reply eh?. It's not my fault you can't grasp simple English and I don't want to have to explain this yet again for you.

leitrim lad

story is that public sector workers and their pathetinc little corrupt unions dont care how bad the private sector gets

as long as they can line their pockets with our money and rally our cars,busses and ambulances around the country, writing them off when they feel like it thats all they are worried about

not us poor unfortunate private sector workers who pay the real tax that counts

how many fas apprentices did they send to nasa for training after they blew a couple of million on rediculas trips there

bobbbb

jimmmy wrote: »

You cannot get the deficit under control without tackling the public sector.....its amazing some people just do not see the scale of the problem. Even getting the guts of 150,000 public servants to pay an average of 5,000 euro each would only produce 3 % of the budget defecit.
The net effect on the economy would be even less, because of the less income tax , vat etc produced. It just goes to show the scale of the problem. Perhaps 10 or 15 k per person would be more realistic, and would at least help bring top public sector wages in to line with international levels. There would be no mass exodus from the public service - where else would they go ?

ehm. Yes you can.
You take 10% off everyone in the country for 2 - 3 years. Private, public, social welfare. Everyone.

Thats an average of over €3,500 per worker in this country.
Plus about €2,000 for each person on the dole.

Childcare payments should be removed from anyone on over say €40,000

And we should leave the OAPs out of this. They have long since paid their dues and should respected, not picked on.

The public sector have already taken a major hit. They will not have the appetite for another one right now.

Sort out the deficit right now. Then, once the ship is steadied, go in and start to weed out the dead weight in the public sector, starting with health.

leitrim lad

apetite or not let them starve for wasting the private sectors hard earned money

ionix5891

White dargo wrote: »

I didn't say that either . Nowhere in my post did I suggest expanding the PS.

What I said, and read slowly now so you'll understand, is that if people on this thread think public service jobs are so great why have they not been applying for them themselves. I never said make more jobs. The "them" refers to existing jobs (not that there will be much of them for a while). Get it now:cool:

Oh and do me a favour, don't bother to reply eh?. It's not my fault you can't grasp simple English and I don't want to have to explain this yet again for you.

let me highlight what you said

Best jobs in the state apparently. Go and join up.

if people follow your advise that would mean the public sector would grow bigger, QED

bobbbb

leitrim lad wrote: »

apetite or not let them starve for wasting the private sectors hard earned money

Im sure we all wasted our fair share too.

leitrim lad

to a certain extent yes we did but not on the scale that the hse,gardai,opw,fas, and the others have ,they waste billions every year and im not talking about their wages

ixoy

bobbbb wrote: »

The public sector have already taken a major hit. They will not have the appetite for another one right now.

I dunno - it could be a bigger hit. Obviously the levy is a fairly big hit, but they're still paying out increments. If you lost say 7% on the levy, but then got a 3% increment, it really helps reduce the hit.

Sort out the deficit right now. Then, once the ship is steadied, go in and start to weed out the dead weight in the public sector, starting with health.

Broadly agree with this but I think stopping increments should be considered too.

achtungbarry

Raiser wrote: »

For the record, I said absolutely nothing about Barry O'Carroll not here nor anywhere else - not ever.......

As to why my words prompted you to strike out against me in a tirade of personal abuse!?!? Ouch!!! Well thats anyone's guess - but some might conclude that your overreaction is indicative of something......

You said

Seems to me that they are all acting like poorly motivated, under performing, uninspired, talentless lazy w@nkers partly because they cannot be fcuked out the door for being poorly motivated, under performing, uninspired, talentless lazy w@nkers.

Note the word "all"

So yes you were refering to me.

As to why your words prompted me into a tirade of personal abuse......

well.....

"poorly motivated, under performing, uninspired, talentless lazy w@nkers partly because they cannot be fcuked out the door for being poorly motivated, under performing, uninspired, talentless lazy w@nkers"

That just might have done it I think.

I work hard, I am highly motivated, I am talented and I do a damn good job.

You seem well able to dish it out........ :rolleyes:

I do believe that there are others in the PS who should be sacked immediately. I support serious PS reform like making people more sackable and having real performance review.

I am more than prepared to pay my levy and more if needed. I support freezing incriments until whenever neccessary and as mentioned I support a clearout of the underperforming idiots who give me a bad name.


Rambling uninformed rantings will solve nothing though.

leitrim lad

achtungbarry you are one of few,and if the rest of the public service had your attitude we wouldnt have a problem at all
and probably a more efficent service aswell
but the problem is that only about 5% of the hole service has your motivation, and the other 95% are letting you down

jimmmy

I agree, achtungbarry, fair play to you, and if the rest of the public service had your attitude we wouldnt have a problem at all.

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

achtungbarry you are one of few,and if the rest of the public service had your attitude we wouldnt have a problem at all

as commendable as he is, we would still very much have a problem if everyone in the Public sector was like him. You seem to have a very very tentative grasp on what has been involved and what has lead to the recession we are in at the minute.

but the problem is that only about 5% of the hole service has your motivation, and the other 95% are letting you down

is this the time to pull out the LL is ranting again/making uninformed blanket statements/letting himself down (delete as appropriate) sentence?

ixoy

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

as commendable as he is, we would still very much have a problem if everyone in the Public sector was like him.

Naturally - it would help though. Anyone who believes reforming the public sector will lead us completely out of the recession is obviously deluded - but it's something that can get us a nice bit along the road to recovery.

Dr Galen

totally agree with you Ioxy, public sector reform is badly needed. One of the reasons I got out of it was the frustration that I felt working within it. Now it's as bad though working in a private sector company that deals primarily with the public sector. All of this should have been sorted years ago, but it wasn't...........and who was in power, oh yes Leitrim Lad's (and others to be fair) beloved Fianna Fail

mewso

leitrim lad wrote: »

story is that public sector workers and their pathetinc little corrupt unions dont care how bad the private sector gets

as long as they can line their pockets with our money and rally our cars,busses and ambulances around the country, writing them off when they feel like it thats all they are worried about

not us poor unfortunate private sector workers who pay the real tax that counts

how many fas apprentices did they send to nasa for training after they blew a couple of million on rediculas trips there

I'm still laughing. Hilarious stuff.

Having watched "How we blew the Boom" the other night - I'm actually confused now.

I live in an apartment I bought 2 years ago through affordable housing. I couldn't afford the average price property was selling for so I opted for this excellent scheme. Only drawback is your choice of location is limited. So I lived beside the odd junkie. What the heck. Management company eventually got rid of them. A few needles lying around is small price to pay for your own home. So theres the odd shooting, stabbing etc. around here. Common enough isn't it.

I bought a second hand car by going to the credit union. Nothing fancy. Just to get from A to B.

I haven't gotten around to furnishing the apartment yet. I'm there 2 years but I simply couldn't afford to get everything I need. I'm ok with that though. It's a gradual process.

I was happy but now it seems I should have been buying at least 3 properties in good areas and furnishing all of them straight away while parking my big ass brand new car outside one of them.

Why? Well because I was being overpaid through the nose. 15k more than the Private Sector (who all seemingly get paid the same amount for some reason - 37k? wow I thought some might get paid more).

On top of getting paid more cash than I know what to do with I was also doing nothing. Apparently the infrastructure throughout the country that facilitated the economic growth of the last 15 years miraculously appeared while the Public Sector sat and stared open-mouthed at this incredible marvel. Our top scientists have yet to explain it.

Alls well that ends well though because the good people of this country are here to set things right. They have lost money through investments gone bad, risks that didn't work out and so on and they are being good sports. They don't want to suffer alone. Who would? So they are going to help us to join them in their suffering. All they have to do is point fingers, moan to people over a pint in the local, spout bile to anyone that will listen and just keep at it.

Now myself and my friends mistakenly wondered if maybe we didn't need to suffer too much. Maybe we could take a pay cut until things improve. Have a look at some restructuring, early retirements etc. We were soon shown the error of our ways. Instead of taking a pay cut for a while these clever experts on the Public Service explained that we should be paying cash left right and centre and we should be paying for it until we retire.

We don't deserve a pension as the contributions we make are for something else. It was lucky someone pointed this out to us because a few of us amazingly thought our pension contributions paid over 40 years entitled us to some of it back down the line.

No need for me to go on much more. We've been set straight here in Public Sector HQ. We've done nothing but read the newspaper and sip coffee while sitting at our desks. We have finally found a purpose though.

In good times things like roads, medical services, bin collection, policing and housing occur as natural phenomenon in spite of our laziness (we are the shepherds of the infrastructural fairies if you will) while the real workforce in the Private Sector drive the economy forward.

In the bad times our sole purpose is to answer for everything that has gone wrong and to be a gutter where these good, incorruptible giants of the private sector can let their bile, anger and fear seep away.

jimmmy

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

as commendable as he is, we would still very much have a problem if everyone in the Public sector was like him.

Wrong. If the public service was as it should have been
(A) The country would not be borrowing 25 billion this year and blowing much of it on handouts
(B) If the regulator's office and government control was efficient , the banks would not have been allowed to do what they did. The government should also not have thrown fuel on the property bubble fire by continually extending the section 23 + 27 tax deadlines etc.

Do not forget what the German ambassador said in the point theater a few years ago. He was right.

franbrehon

I agree with jimmy.:D No matter what you do for some people they are never happy.:rolleyes: The public workforce has had an easy ride for a long time now and it needs to change.:( why should they benefit while others loose everything!:eek:

BroomBurner

franbrehon wrote: »

I agree with jimmy.:D No matter what you do for some people they are never happy.:rolleyes: The public workforce has had an easy ride for a long time now and it needs to change.:( why should they benefit while others loose everything!:eek:

That's the way the cookie crumbles, I'm afraid.

Not aimed at Franbrehon specifically, but everyone:

If you're big into everyone earning the exact same and being exactly equal, I'd suggest you become a communist.

SkepticOne

musician wrote: »

Now myself and my friends mistakenly wondered if maybe we didn't need to suffer too much. Maybe we could take a pay cut until things improve. Have a look at some restructuring, early retirements etc.

If it is any consolation, you will probably be given a pay cut later this year.

Raiser

Actungbarry - It seems that I have wronged you then and for that I apologise unreservedly.

- I do accept that when they rest are slacking you still hear Barry's keyboard clacking.... !!!!

Tell me though have you ever seen All the Presidents men or Under Siege? - Can you bring down this whole creaking structure from the inside Barry - can ya? CAN YA?

jimmmy

BroomBurner wrote: »

If you're big into everyone earning the exact same and being exactly equal, I'd suggest you become a communist.

No I or most other people are not big into everyone earning the exact same and being exactly equal, or communist policies ! Shure the poor auld public servants, those who work 35 hour weeks with plenty of tea + coffee breaks, those with greater sick days and holidays, those with guaranteed job security, those with a guaranteed fat pension to look forward to ( a Garda retiring early - like many do - has a pension worth 1 million if he was to buy it privately )....heaven forbid should those poor people be paid less than those who actually take the risks, who may borrow or sink their own money in to providing a job for themselves, some of whom have little or no social welfare entitlements if things do not work out etc.