The Damned United

monkey9

Anyone going to see this? It looks quality from the scenes i've seen and Michael Sheen seems to have Clough down to a tee!

Quint

Who plays Johnny Giles? Will be worth watching just to see that.
But don't expect anything factual

stovelid

I heard Tom Humphries hated it which is more than enough validation for me.

Im_No_Superman

Bought the book today. So I'll give that a read first before I go see it.

monkey9

I can't remember the name of the person who plays Giles. Reading a bit about it other day and the director was saying that because Giles sued the author of the book, they minimized his role in the film because they couldn't take the chance of him hating this one too.
Heard a review of it on Today FM this morning and the reviewer was saying that they make Giles out to be a bit conniving. Also, the bloke who plays him is taller than Giles (but that just seems to be getting into specifics).
I haven't read the book, but by all accounts it's a novel based on factual events of Clough's 44 days as Leeds Utd's manager. The book is meant to be a bit heavy whereas the film is more lighthearted.
It's getting great reviews and i can't wait to see it.

daithijjj

Quint wrote: »

Who plays Johnny Giles? Will be worth watching just to see that.
But don't expect anything factual

Chap called Peter Mcdonald plays giles.

cruiserweight

monkey9 wrote: »

I can't remember the name of the person who plays Giles. Reading a bit about it other day and the director was saying that because Giles sued the author of the book, they minimized his role in the film because they couldn't take the chance of him hating this one too.
Heard a review of it on Today FM this morning and the reviewer was saying that they make Giles out to be a bit conniving. Also, the bloke who plays him is taller than Giles (but that just seems to be getting into specifics).
I haven't read the book, but by all accounts it's a novel based on factual events of Clough's 44 days as Leeds Utd's manager. The book is meant to be a bit heavy whereas the film is more lighthearted.
It's getting great reviews and i can't wait to see it.

AFAIK Giles law suit was to make sure that the book was recognised as fiction based on fact rather than fact

Iang87

dunno if i'll go see this. According to the documentary last night on UTV no1 really close to clough sees it as a true portrayal of him or any1 else in it. Johnny Giles described it as fiction based on fact which doesn't sound very good.

I do like Martin Sheen though and from the clips i seen of the film looks like he done a super job

Mr.Nice Guy

Quint wrote: »

I can't remember the name of the person who plays Giles. Reading a bit about it other day and the director was saying that because Giles sued the author of the book, they minimized his role in the film because they couldn't take the chance of him hating this one too.
.

As long as there's plenty of moral courage and honesty of effort I'm sure John will be happy.

I did see the Clough documentary on UTV last night and really enjoyed it. Sounds like the book is a load of tosh as it portrays many elements which are totally out of character with Clough himself. Seems like it's basically the world of Brian Clough according to this author.

leninbenjamin

supposed to be very loose with the facts alright, and there are certainly complete fabrications in it, the court case proved that. don't know if i want to see it tbh.

monkey9

It's in no way a biography, but je$us it looks entertaining!!

therecklessone

daithijjj wrote: »

Chap called Peter Mcdonald plays giles.

Also played the role of Git opposite Brendan Gleeson in I Went Down and Tomo in Paths to Freedom.

MementoMori

Having read the book I wouldnt really recommend it. Overall it's not very well written and parts are tricky to follow and it gets very repetitive. It tries to get into the head of Clough and doesn't really succeed. Only after I finished did I realise that it was written by the David Peace. I read Tokyo Year Zero, which was a crime novel, by him as well and thought that wasn't great either. I'm hoping that it ends up as a case of the film being better that the book. The trailer looks decent and Shannon is always worth a watch.

x in the city

Gotta see this myself...

Clough was a legend of a manager

wandatowell

defo worth a watch

daithijjj

therecklessone wrote: »

Also played the role of Git opposite Brendan Gleeson in I Went Down and Tomo in Paths to Freedom.

Havent seen either of those but someone said to me that he was in a few episodes of 'spooks' tv series.......never watched that either but im gonna try and get to see this, the only sour note for me is the family arent behind it so i suppose we will have to just take it as fiction, doesnt seem right to me but should be entertaining. Sheen was pretty good as david frost in frost/nixon and tony blair.

Xavi6

Really wanna see this, though my head is already filled with hopes that it's gonna be another Mike Bassett and I know it isn't!

BaZmO*

leninbenjamin wrote: »

supposed to be very loose with the facts alright, and there are certainly complete fabrications in it, the court case proved that. don't know if i want to see it tbh.

They're calling it Faction. I suppose, to a degree, most films are. Tom Humphries has fairly slated the inaccuracies in his Irish Times column (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/theticket/2009/0320/1224243084534.html), but more so because he's a Leeds fan and it doesn't show his club in the greatest of lights.

I'm really looking forward to seeing it (might go tonight), Sheen is an amazing actor.
Apparently they've decided not to go down the showing the actors playing football route so we're saved from the cringe-worthy-match-winning-last minute-overhead-kick-goal which is normally the case in Football movies. Instead they just show actual clips.

everdead.ie

BaZmO* wrote: »

Apparently they've decided not to go down the showing the actors playing football route so we're saved from the cringe-worthy-match-winning-last minute-overhead-kick-goal which is normally the case in Football movies. Instead they just show actual clips.

Ah yes the classic picture of foot hits ball and ball hits net nothing in between:rolleyes:

Quint

Iang87 wrote: »

dunno if i'll go see this. According to the documentary last night on UTV no1 really close to clough sees it as a true portrayal of him or any1 else in it. Johnny Giles described it as fiction based on fact which doesn't sound very good.

I do like Martin Sheen though and from the clips i seen of the film looks like he done a super job

That documentary was class. It also made Giles look bad though. He wanted Clough out and wouldn't put in any effort for him. Also when Giles tried to say Leeds weren't dirty and they showed a few of his tackles, and even other leeds players said they were dirty.

monkey9

Quint wrote: »

That documentary was class. It also made Giles look bad though. He wanted Clough out and wouldn't put in any effort for him.

No honesty of effort from Giles???

Quint

monkey9 wrote: »

No honesty of effort from Giles???

Giles says he did a lot of things in his playing career he's not proud of. Apparently he broke some young players leg and ended his career to teach him a lesson. Dunphy mentioned it in one of his rants.

SectionF

I'm a Leeds supporter, fan follower, but I really would like to be able to turn on a radio or open a newspaper without having to learn all about Cloughie and Revie all over again.

Hats off to the PR people: they have the media, and not just the sports hacks, eating out of their hands.

MementoMori

monkey9 wrote: »

No honesty of effort from Giles???

You can understand why he took the courtcase in fairness given the stuff in the book given there are parts of the book which seem to be simply the imagining of conversations between Clough and Giles (or The Irishman as Clough constantly refers to him in his head)

BaZmO*

Im_No_Superman wrote: »

Bought the book today. So I'll give that a read first before I go see it.

monkey9 wrote: »

I can't remember the name of the person who plays Giles. Reading a bit about it other day and the director was saying that because Giles sued the author of the book, they minimized his role in the film because they couldn't take the chance of him hating this one too.

Apparently as part of the court settlement they had to re-draft the book, so I'd imagine the first print edition is the one to get, even if a lot of it is made up.

DvB

To be fair i have a first print copy of the book & i'm pretty sure it stated it was a 'Fictional Account' of the period in question. This may have changed in subsequent editions to be clearer though based on the court case(s)

As for the author David Peace, personally speaking i enjoy his work and have read all of his books, though i must admit his writing style is one few people seem to manage to get to grips with and can find hard to follow, the damned utd was by far the easiest to follow however & IMO was an enjoyable read. I'm looking forward to seeing the film which i genuinely hope is true to the book & not 'real life events' which are likely to be far less entertaining.

BaZmO*

DvB wrote: »

To be fair i have a first print copy of the book & i'm pretty sure it stated it was a 'Fictional Account' of the period in question. This may have changed in subsequent editions to be clearer though based on the court case(s)

Plus isn't a lot of the book suppose to be coming from Clough's thoughts? That alone would show that it's fiction, or as they've labelled it "Faction"

DvB

BaZmO* wrote: »

Plus isn't a lot of the book suppose to be coming from Clough's thoughts? That alone would show that it's fiction, or as they've labelled it "Faction"

There's certainly parts of the book that are clearly a work of fiction, Cloughs personal thoughts are IMO to be filed under that heading.

Everyone i know who's read the book and discussed it with me has referred to it as a fictional novel & certainly not as a biographical record of the man or the period.

bullpost

I'd like to see it purely to enjoy the period recreation.
Watched the documentary the other night and it clearly showed just why Clough was so great.
Leading a modest sized club like Notts. Forest to 2 European cup triumphs (remember thats only one less than man utd) was a work of genius.

He was also a brilliant character with a quick wit - He reminded me a lot of Mourinho but more entertaining.

KerranJast

Quint wrote: »

That documentary was class. It also made Giles look bad though. He wanted Clough out and wouldn't put in any effort for him. Also when Giles tried to say Leeds weren't dirty and they showed a few of his tackles, and even other leeds players said they were dirty.

Clough lost the dressing room the minute he walked in and abused the team. These weren't a rag tag bunch of journeymen like he took over at Derby and Notts Forest. They were league champions with some very experience and talented players in the squad. As a Leeds fan I'll freely admit the team were a tough tackling side. That's what made them a very effective defensive side. Going forward too though they were brilliant. They had the likes of Allan Clarke, Eddie Gray, Johnny Giles, Peter Lorimer & Mick Jones banging in some cracking goals.

invincibleirish

I'll definitely watch it at some point alright, i didn't particularly enjoy the book mainly because Clough is depicted as a schizo ogre. Fair enough Pearce has stressed that it is a fictional interpretation and the movie has received great reviews but old big head certainly doesn't come out of it smelling of roses.

Mr Alan

invincibleirish wrote: »

Fair enough Pearce has stressed that it is a fictional interpretation and the movie has received great reviews but old big head certainly doesn't come out of it smelling of roses.

why would he? he wasn't a particularly pleasant person.

invincibleirish

Mr Alan wrote: »

why would he? he wasn't a particularly pleasant person.

Whatever about his real life unpleasantness he certainly wasn't the psycho emotionally unstable alcoholic wreck as made out in the books storyline.

K4t

KerranJast wrote: »

Clough lost the dressing room the minute he walked in and abused the team.

Yeah, Giles said that Clough told them to 'throw their medals in the bin'. Gilesy was on Pat Kenny this morning. Very interesting. Fiction more than fact according to him and some football historian bloke.

Should be entertaining nonetheless.

Guy:Incognito

Iang87 wrote: »

I do like Martin Sheen though

He was good in the west wing alright.:)



Will definately try to get to see this soon.

Zaph

Just been to see it and I'm not a happy man. First off I should point out that I'm a Leeds fan, and I have also read the book. Both are fiction, but at least the book shows Clough to be a man full of self-doubt on occasions, in the film he's cocky and arrogant all the way through. He's the hero of the film and he's not going to be shown in a bad light. I also don't think enough credit is given to Peter Taylor's role in their partnership. However, the portrayal of Clough isn't the reason I'm unhappy, it's the portrayal of everyone else connected to Leeds. I know I'm not really the most unbiased person here, but I really do think that what was shown was unfair to the club.

I like Colm Meaney as an actor, but he played Don Revie as a real miserable and dour man. I'm not saying The Don was necessarily a barrel of laughs, but there was more to him than that, but by portraying him that way they made clough appear to be even more charismatic. The players are almost incidental to the film, they're virtually no dialogue or character development and yet we're supposed to accept that their "plotting" against Clough was the reason for his downfall? As regards the whole "Dirty Leeds" thing, yes I'll admit that the team was physical and probably overstepped things on occasions, but there is zero concession made to the fact that football was different then and every team had hard men. Guys like Ron Harris, Tommy Smith, Peter Storey, Dave Mackay, Kenny Burns and Nobby Stiles wouldn't be allowed near a pitch these days, so it wasn't just Leeds who had hard men, but the way it's shown in the film you'd swear they were mass murderers.

Non-Leeds fans might enjoy it more, and to be fair parts are entertaining, but I'll be interested to see what some of the other Leeds regulars here think of it. We're used to people disliking us, but this really takes the píss imo.

Mr.Nice Guy

Interesting, zaph. Doesn't sound like they made an effort to make it balanced and fair.

I actually recently found a series on Youtube called Leeds, Leeds, Leeds. Don't know if you've caught it before but it dealt with the highs and lows of Leeds and it touches on the arrival of Clough as manager. It has John Giles giving his thoughts on the matter too. Might be of interest to a few people. Here's the clip which deals with Revie leaving and Clough arriving (about 4 mins in):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssqLlnSahvQ

The guy who uploaded it also uploaded the other programmes in the series. I found it an enjoyable series. Worth a look for football fans as it features a lot of thoughts from the players.

BaZmO*

Zaph wrote: »

Just been to see it and I'm not a happy man. First off I should point out that I'm a Leeds fan, and I have also read the book. Both are fiction, but at least the book shows Clough to be a man full of self-doubt on occasions, in the film he's cocky and arrogant all the way through. He's the hero of the film and he's not going to be shown in a bad light. I also don't think enough credit is given to Peter Taylor's role in their partnership. However, the portrayal of Clough isn't the reason I'm unhappy, it's the portrayal of everyone else connected to Leeds. I know I'm not really the most unbiased person here, but I really do think that what was shown was unfair to the club.

I like Colm Meaney as an actor, but he played Don Revie as a real miserable and dour man. I'm not saying The Don was necessarily a barrel of laughs, but there was more to him than that, but by portraying him that way they made clough appear to be even more charismatic. The players are almost incidental to the film, they're virtually no dialogue or character development and yet we're supposed to accept that their "plotting" against Clough was the reason for his downfall? As regards the whole "Dirty Leeds" thing, yes I'll admit that the team was physical and probably overstepped things on occasions, but there is zero concession made to the fact that football was different then and every team had hard men. Guys like Ron Harris, Tommy Smith, Peter Storey, Dave Mackay, Kenny Burns and Nobby Stiles wouldn't be allowed near a pitch these days, so it wasn't just Leeds who had hard men, but the way it's shown in the film you'd swear they were mass murderers.

Non-Leeds fans might enjoy it more, and to be fair parts are entertaining, but I'll be interested to see what some of the other Leeds regulars here think of it. We're used to people disliking us, but this really takes the píss imo.

Is that you Tom Humphries?

Went to see it last night and really enjoyed it although I can't see too many Leeds fans enjoying it too much as it doesn't show them in a good light especially Bremner & Giles, they don't say much other than looking extremely moany and brooding.

Didn't like the man love love scenes between Clough & Taylor, very creepy.

Overall a good movie that's based in truth but very loose with the facts.

sligobhoy67

monkey9 wrote: »

Anyone going to see this? It looks quality from the scenes i've seen and Michael Sheen seems to have Clough down to a tee!

they are showing it at a local cinema near me and I will be going to see it on wednesday.

ESPN CLassic has a load of good Cloughie stuff on this weekend

RacoonQueen

I'd rather watch International football than watch this tripe. Not giving that tit David Peace any of my money either.

_blank_

Just in from it now.

Enjoyed the film, as a film.

Unsure how to take it though, it's entertaining, and Sheen certainly has Clough to an absolute T alright.

Going by Zaff's review above, I'll take it as a fictional movie, nothing more.




Recommend it though, it was herself who suggested we go and all. :pac:

pierrot

Des wrote: »

Just in from it now.

Enjoyed the film, as a film.

Same as that. Wasn't fantastic, but enjoyable.

_blank_

Seriously dude

use the spoiler tag tbh

citytillidie

No intention to see this never like Clough dont really know how any Liverpool fan can for his remarks in his book about Liverpool fans killing Liverpool fans at Hillsborough.

Alan Green is right

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/ididaucwoj/

Clough film doesn’t interest me
by Alan Green

I HAVEN’T seen "The Damned United". I have no intention of seeing the movie or of reading the book that provoked it. I distrust the mixture of ‘fact’ and fiction or, as its called, ‘faction’. Johnny Giles’ disparagement was quite enough for me.

Yet, you can hardly move without some plug slamming you in the face. The Clough family were forewarned enough to support an ITV ‘counter-product’ the other night.

I’m biased. I admit that. I was at Old Trafford the night that Brian Clough died. BBC 5 Live was awash with eulogies and I was asked if I wished to say anything. I responded by saying that I would but ‘they’d’ have to appreciate my remarks were unlikely to be ‘politically correct’. It was their choice.

I said that I saw Clough as one of the greatest managers in British football history, worthy of ranking alongside, in no particular order, Jock Stein, Bill Nicholson, Matt Busby, Alex Ferguson, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Don Revie: yes, ironically, Revie.

But I also said I thought that he was deeply flawed and that he would never be forgiven, for example, for what he said around the time of the Hillsborough tragedy whose 20th anniversary is almost upon us.

I may as well have lit a fuse. The BBC was inundated with complaints that I’d had the nerve to speak ill of the dead. I regret those complaints but not what I said. Imagine yourself trying to write an obituary about someone that you didn’t like.

My personal experience of Clough was limited. I didn’t know him at Leeds nor, previously, at Derby County. When I visited the City Ground in Nottingham, he appeared that untouchable figure along the corridor. I didn’t approach. I wasn’t remotely as confident or as experienced as I am now.

No, my defining memory of Clough was at Sheffield Wednesday’s ground on April 15th 1989.

I was commentating when the referee decided, seven minutes into the FA Cup semi final, to call a halt to the proceedings. I’d been aware of a crush at the Leppings Lane end but not what it signified.

It wasn’t long before I realised that the game wouldn’t resume and I moved from the commentary area in the main stand downstairs to a position outside the dressing rooms. I wasn’t working for BBC Sport anymore, I’d reverted to the BBC news reporter I’d once been.

I’ve no wish to have to defend myself in court, whatever the strength of my views. So I must be reserved in expanding on what I witnessed with regard to how Clough reacted that day.

I can tell you though I was shocked at how he refused an invitation to join the then Liverpool manager Kenny Dalglish in going to the public address box to speak to the fans of both clubs. You can imagine how appalled I later was reading his newspaper accusation that Liverpool fans themselves had been drunk contributing to the disaster: blatantly untrue in terms of any meaningful relevance to what happened on that awful day.

So, whatever his undoubted greatness as a manager, don’t expect me to join in any nostalgia about his film portrayal. I don’t feel nostalgic about Clough.

citytillidie

citytillidie wrote: »

No intention to see this never like Clough dont really know how any Liverpool fan can for his remarks in his book about Liverpool fans killing Liverpool fans at Hillsborough.

Alan Green is right

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/ididaucwoj/

Clough film doesn’t interest me
by Alan Green

I HAVEN’T seen "The Damned United". I have no intention of seeing the movie or of reading the book that provoked it. I distrust the mixture of ‘fact’ and fiction or, as its called, ‘faction’. Johnny Giles’ disparagement was quite enough for me.

Yet, you can hardly move without some plug slamming you in the face. The Clough family were forewarned enough to support an ITV ‘counter-product’ the other night.

I’m biased. I admit that. I was at Old Trafford the night that Brian Clough died. BBC 5 Live was awash with eulogies and I was asked if I wished to say anything. I responded by saying that I would but ‘they’d’ have to appreciate my remarks were unlikely to be ‘politically correct’. It was their choice.

I said that I saw Clough as one of the greatest managers in British football history, worthy of ranking alongside, in no particular order, Jock Stein, Bill Nicholson, Matt Busby, Alex Ferguson, Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley and Don Revie: yes, ironically, Revie.

But I also said I thought that he was deeply flawed and that he would never be forgiven, for example, for what he said around the time of the Hillsborough tragedy whose 20th anniversary is almost upon us.

I may as well have lit a fuse. The BBC was inundated with complaints that I’d had the nerve to speak ill of the dead. I regret those complaints but not what I said. Imagine yourself trying to write an obituary about someone that you didn’t like.

My personal experience of Clough was limited. I didn’t know him at Leeds nor, previously, at Derby County. When I visited the City Ground in Nottingham, he appeared that untouchable figure along the corridor. I didn’t approach. I wasn’t remotely as confident or as experienced as I am now.

No, my defining memory of Clough was at Sheffield Wednesday’s ground on April 15th 1989.

I was commentating when the referee decided, seven minutes into the FA Cup semi final, to call a halt to the proceedings. I’d been aware of a crush at the Leppings Lane end but not what it signified.

It wasn’t long before I realised that the game wouldn’t resume and I moved from the commentary area in the main stand downstairs to a position outside the dressing rooms. I wasn’t working for BBC Sport anymore, I’d reverted to the BBC news reporter I’d once been.

I’ve no wish to have to defend myself in court, whatever the strength of my views. So I must be reserved in expanding on what I witnessed with regard to how Clough reacted that day.

I can tell you though I was shocked at how he refused an invitation to join the then Liverpool manager Kenny Dalglish in going to the public address box to speak to the fans of both clubs. You can imagine how appalled I later was reading his newspaper accusation that Liverpool fans themselves had been drunk contributing to the disaster: blatantly untrue in terms of any meaningful relevance to what happened on that awful day.

So, whatever his undoubted greatness as a manager, don’t expect me to join in any nostalgia about his film portrayal. I don’t feel nostalgic about Clough.

I think Green is a pr*ck and a big mouth himself. there could have been any reason why clough refused to go to the PA system.It didnt hit anyone at the time the sheer horror of what was happening. to judge clough on this shows what a gutter journalist this imbecile is.


Anyways i watched the Damned United. Out of all of the people portrayed in the film i think Dave Mackay has more reason to be pissed off then anyone. this guy was as brave and as honest a player as they came yet a younger generation may interpret him as a scab who broke a petition to keep Clough at derby. in truth he wasn't even at derby when Clough was sacked.

citytillidie

In his 1994 autobiography, Clough said Liverpool fans brought the Hillsborough tragedy on themselves – later compounding his comments on a TV chat show

Dont like Clough for that

citytillidie

citytillidie wrote: »

In his 1994 autobiography, Clough said Liverpool fans brought the Hillsborough tragedy on themselves – later compounding his comments on a TV chat show

Dont like Clough for that

to be honest that was outrageous. i don't feel any different about clough though. yes he was controversial but he had a drinking problem around that time.

Mr.Nice Guy

I do think Clough was a fascinating character. Not sure what I make of his personality. He tends to divide people in that respect. I did find this interesting video a while back from ESPN Classic I think where he has a right go at John Motson. It's pretty fascinating and worth a look for those who haven't seen it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqAZsoF-ghw

SDTimeout

Was there 100% no truth behind what Clough said ?

SDTimeout

SDTimeout wrote: »

Was there 100% no truth behind what Clough said ?

it wasn't appropriate to say what he said given what happened and it certainly wasn't the main reason what happened that day. There was a lot of elements as to what happened and that was a very minor element which in truth didnt help matters. The major element was total police mismanagement

SDTimeout

Deleted User wrote: »

it wasn't appropriate to say what he said given what happened and it certainly wasn't the main reason what happened that day. There was a lot of elements as to what happened and that was a very minor element which in truth didnt help matters. The major element was total police mismanagement

It seems to me he was an outspoken manager, i really was looking forward to that film and at the time done my whole look up everything about clough stuff. I assume Cloughs comments were post match ? or as near to post match as would have been. I'm open to correction as i was not alive but how soon after hillsborough was it established the majority factor was down to poor policing.