Common trend of blaming government

jmayo

Kevster wrote: »

Good replies you guys... ...as is typical with Boards, I was expecting sheer abuse and idiotic replies but all have been intelligent ones so far (and ones that I cannot argue with). Anyway, it's 7:16AM and I gotta get my ass to college.

Have a nice day and take care,
Kevin

That's it I DEMAND college fees are re-instated :mad:

Perhaps kevster after you have lived a little, you will realise that you have been ridden sideways, backways and every which ways by FF and their governments.

Their inept handling of our economy, their selling out of our country's future in order to benefit developers, builders and bankers and their wastage of state funds in all the grossly overpriced and behind schedule projects you see as their achievements, has probably consigned you to either emigration or a life paying very high taxes.

Kevster

jmayo wrote: »

That's it I DEMAND college fees are re-instated :mad:

Perhaps kevster after you have lived a little, you will realise that you have been ridden sideways, backways and every which ways by FF and their governments.

Their inept handling of our economy, their selling out of our country's future in order to benefit developers, builders and bankers and their wastage of state funds in all the grossly overpriced and behind schedule projects you see as their achievements, has probably consigned you to either emigration or a life paying very high taxes.

Hmm, you just assumed incorrectly that I am a non fee-paying student when - in fact - I have been paying my own way through college for the past 4 years. Plus, I am in favour of bringing back college fees because there are a lot of ****ing wasters in college who don't deserve to be there.

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

zootroid

Kevster wrote: »

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

Kevster, I don't believe how you still don't get this. Perhaps this will help you understand:

Research from the Economic and Social Research Institute has blamed a mixture of bad policy mistakes and bad luck for the economic problems facing the country. The think-tank today published a note from four of its experts giving the preliminary findings of its research.

It identified three areas which it says must be addressed if the economy is to return to growth. These are a 'serious' loss of competitiveness, the structural imbalance in the government accounts and the banking system.

The report estimates that 'up to a half' of Ireland's current problems arise from the global financial and economic crisis - and would have happened regardless of budgetary policy over the last decade. But it says the bursting of the property bubble has made things much worse.

The ESRI estimates that the Government deficit is likely to top 10% of output this year, but argues that some of this will be wiped out when the world economy recovers. It says the Government must focus on the 6% to 8% which it describes as 'structural', or due to permanent changes in the economy.

The research says tax levels will have to be raised to compensate for the fall in property-linked taxes. It favours developing new sources of revenue such as taxes on carbon and property.

The report also argues against cutting large numbers of jobs in the health and education sector. 'It seems likely that the public would wish to preserve the existing standard of health care and education in the long run,' the research states, adding that spending cuts should focus on areas where services are inefficient or of low value.

On competitiveness, the ESRI research argues that a 'substantial reduction' in wage rates and other prices is needed, and urges a renegotiation of the national pay deal to reflect the dramatic fall in prices now underway.

In the long-term, the paper says Ireland's potential growth rate up to 2020 will average around 3% a year. This is lower than the 3.6% in its medium-term review of the economy published last year. The report says this is because the financial crisis and recession may have longer-term consequences for growth in the world economy.

'With a rapid restoration of competitiveness in 2009-10 a return to near full employment by the middle of the next decade would be possible,' the ESRI says.

http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0327/esri.html

Obviously we are going to be affected by a global recession. But the point is not only were we unprepared, but government policy over the last few years actually made things worse.

And, just so you know, not every country is as badly affected as Ireland is by the global recession. I'm currently in Australia, and the recession is just starting to take effect here. Australia was sheltered as it had been prudent, and had strong financial market regulations. Also, it is in a position to give a fiscal stimulus to the economy as it had built up large surpluses when the going was good, something which our government did not. We were running deficits while the country was at full employment for Christs sake. They just assumed the "good times" would continue indefinitely.

I'd suggest you drop this topic, as you're clearly trying to argue about something you know nothing about.

Kevster

I do/did understand that, zootroid. I just wanted to make sure that our government isn't the only one to blame for the 'mess', as people say. I also want people to realise that it wouldn't have been any different if Fianna Gael or Labour (or the Greens!) were running the government. My view on this whole thing is that it would have happened no matter who was in charge.

... ...How can we get ourselves out of the mess by using the same old habits of flogging/wasting money though? You've already seen how the governments have bailed out companies and how some of that money has only gone to paying bonuses. Surely - to God - they realise that a complete overhaul/review of the financial system is needed.

Kevin

Kevster

zootroid wrote: »

I'd suggest you drop this topic, as you're clearly trying to argue about something you know nothing about.

That hurt. What I suggest is that you come here and say that to my face, and then I might respect you more. You are the one who clearly knows nothing about something: Me. So, why make stupid/ignorant sentences like this?

G'day, as they say down there.

Kevin

Kevster

Plus, I am aware that not every country is affected by this. Well, every country IS affected, but to varying degrees. Why do I know this? - Because I watch the news every single day. I don't claim to know the ins-and-outs of economics because I have chosen a different career path. I'm just saying it as I see it, and I have learned things from you guys so far here. If you don't like what I'm saying - and have an aversion to it - then you should be the one to leave.

If a kid tries to learn something, do you just tell it to feck off? No, you educate him/her (it?! ). The same principal applies here. I'm not some arrogant fool who won't drop my argument despite what has been said. I'm on a learning mission.

Take care you guys,
Kevin

Kevster

Bah... ...I knew the good replies couldn't last long. You've ruined it zootroid. You're a true Boards.ie user: ignorant and quick to criticise everything, even if you agree with it.

I won't be checking back here you guys. Thanks to all who have replied except zootroid. i appreciarte the understanding and honesty.

Take care,
Kevin

jmayo

Kevster wrote: »

Hmm, you just assumed incorrectly that I am a non fee-paying student when - in fact - I have been paying my own way through college for the past 4 years. Plus, I am in favour of bringing back college fees because there are a lot of ****ing wasters in college who don't deserve to be there.

If you are all claiming that our government was/is inept, then so is every other government in the world who presided over their home nation during the onset of the recession. Is that what you are saying?

Well fair dues, you are paying your way and you have also copped on that 3rd level education should not be free for everyone.
You just can't see that our problems are different and the fact our economy is a shambles is due to our economy being dependent on construction related taxes which were used to create a huge public sector ?

Zootroid is right that you don't appear to know what you are talking about if you keep persevering with this ff party shi** that it is all a global recession and that is why we are in so much difficulties.
You haven't appeared to read any of the posts on here but still bleat the party line that it is global problem.

Is it a global problem that we have created more jobs in public sector over last 12 odd years than the IDA brought into the country ?
Who exactly is responsible for the fact that most of the jobs we created since 2002 were in construction and retail ?
Is it a global problem that out public spending now far outweighs our tax revenue, which has collapsed ?

Our economy was slowing down before the credit crunch which meant our banks could no longer lend huge chunks of cash to consumers to either buy rediculously overpriced property or other consumer goods like BMWs.
Who faciliated the property boom with tax breaks, tax abvoidance schemes for investors ?
If you can't see how our economy was based on cheap credit availability then zooroid is completly right.

Kevster wrote: »

...
If a kid tries to learn something, do you just tell it to feck off? No, you educate him/her (it?! ). The same principal applies here. I'm not some arrogant fool who won't drop my argument despite what has been said. I'm on a learning mission.

Take care you guys,
Kevin

If you want to learn how screwed up our economy has become read/listen to David McWilliams and George Lee, search out some of their old articles.
I know lots of people say they similify things too much and they do to an extent, but they also highlight the basics as to how badly run our economy had/has become.

Also search out an article by Morgan Kelly of UCD. He got slated in early 2008 or late 2007 for highlighting what was on the horizon.

PS stop listening to ff members and government minsiters trying to tell you it had shag all to do with them and it all the fault of US subprime market.
Actaully our financial institutions direct exposure to subprime was probably minimal, someone perhaps has figures ?
Our problems were homegrown created by our own developers, bankers, regulators, government and individual peoples greed to climb on the property ladder and the easy path to riches.

gurramok

Regarding other countries, yes a few have messed up too to varying degrees. The UK, US, Spain, Latvia for example have had housing bubbles which have had devastating impacts on their economies.

The UK also has a financial services reliance and that hit them hard. The rest of the developed countries(Germany, Japan etc), well, they are suffering because the consumer nations listed above cannot buy their goods despite the producer nations having solid export based economies.

Ireland does not have a solid export based economy, 92% of its exports are reliant of variable(Dell gone now) foreign MNC's and then we had 25% of the economy based on construction based activity(domestic issue). And that is why the producer countries will recover more than Ireland when the global upturn occurs as they have a solid base to recover from.

zootroid

jmayo wrote: »

Zootroid is right that you don't appear to know what you are talking about if you keep persevering with this ff party shi** that it is all a global recession and that is why we are in so much difficulties.
You haven't appeared to read any of the posts on here but still bleat the party line that it is global problem.

Is it a global problem that we have created more jobs in public sector over last 12 odd years than the IDA brought into the country ?
Who exactly is responsible for the fact that most of the jobs we created since 2002 were in construction and retail ?
Is it a global problem that out public spending now far outweighs our tax revenue, which has collapsed ?

Our economy was slowing down before the credit crunch which meant our banks could no longer lend huge chunks of cash to consumers to either buy rediculously overpriced property or other consumer goods like BMWs.
Who faciliated the property boom with tax breaks, tax abvoidance schemes for investors ?
If you can't see how our economy was based on cheap credit availability then zooroid is completly right.

Thank you jmayo, I feel somewhat vindicated!

Kevster, I don't mean to personally attack you, but I feel you're not listening to very persuasive arguements, nor are you looking at the evidence of what happened over the last few years. Of course political parties will try to have you believe whatever they want you to believe, be they FF, FG or whoever. But look for the evidence and analysis coming from independent sources. And if you still believe that the government had no role to play in our downfall, then I really don't think there's anything more I can say to convince you otherwise.

Kevster

Interesting replies in my absence. I was studying for exams. For the record, I don't believe a word out of any politicians mouth and I'm no FF supporter (in case any of you have thought that). Plus, I kept persevering with my argument because the majority of the first few replies here were just anecdotal 'blame FF', 'blame the government', etc. replies, which is not what I wanted.

In my opinion, 99% of politicians the world over are useless at their job. Then again, the people who are actually intelligent are not willing to step forward and get into politics. Instead, they sit on the sidelines moaning all of the time.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

Interesting replies in my absence. I was studying for exams. For the record, I don't believe a word out of any politicians mouth and I'm no FF supporter (in case any of you have thought that). Plus, I kept persevering with my argument because the majority of the first few replies here were just anecdotal 'blame FF', 'blame the government', etc. replies, which is not what I wanted.

In my opinion, 99% of politicians the world over are useless at their job. Then again, the people who are actually intelligent are not willing to step forward and get into politics. Instead, they sit on the sidelines moaning all of the time.

Kevin

you say the same as the rest of them that 99% are useless at their jobs, and yet you seem to believe that you are somehow being different. You're not. You're the same. What have you done besides comment on the situation? :rolleyes:

Kevster

True, but part of my purpose here is to give out to people who just blame the Irish government for our problem. We're not exclusive in doing this though, because - as far as I can see - every other nation is just blaming their own government too.

On another note, I have noticed increased skepticism about trying to get out of this by pumping more money in. I thought that this was wrong when I first heard it being done, but politicians are under pressure to act quickly by the public. I think we're making a complete mockery of the global economy to be honest... ...the entire system has to change.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

True, but part of my purpose here is to give out to people who just blame the Irish government for our problem. We're not exclusive in doing this though, because - as far as I can see - every other nation is just blaming their own government too.

Well, I'm amazed that you consider yourself worthy enough to "give out" to these people. Since you're doing the same as them. If you were doing something different, and actually contributing to the change you desire, I might find you more credible, but you're not.

On another note, I have noticed increased skepticism about trying to get out of this by pumping more money in. I thought that this was wrong when I first heard it being done, but politicians are under pressure to act quickly by the public. I think we're making a complete mockery of the global economy to be honest... ...the entire system has to change.

Kevin

The Irish government has never been able to efficiently spend the money it had before, so why would it be able to do so now? The point is that over the last 5 years we had more money than ever before to operate and improve this country. Instead of making use of what they had, they squandered the money in a hopeless manner and created a worse economic condition. Pumping more money in won't change the inherent problems with the way that this country operates. It's time to cut loose all the excess baggage that the government has built up over the last decade, and start looking to make this country successful through efficiency rather than, well, pure luck.

napapa

Kevster wrote: »

people who just blame the Irish government for our problem.Kevin

I blame the government for the pension levy (banker/developer bailout levy) introduced, and I will blame them in advance for the roasting I will receive come 7th April. They (FF) will force me to leave this country after educating me for 8 years.:eek:

And I voted the feicers in too :mad:

Het-Field

"Global economic crisis" has become a euphamism for Ireland's economic woes, in an attempt to fobb off the reality.

Ireland has seen

-Its competitive edge drop like a stone ina deep pond
-Its Creditworthiness hit the same level as Morocco
-Our unemployment figures outstrip our European Competitiors in a mad dash to the bottom
-The mass outflow of its formerly crucial Foreign Direct Investment, with the "Irish hero" Barack Obama claiming that Ireland will have to survive without it
-A nationalised, recapitalised and guaranteed banking sector
-Our recent International Downgrade
-A fumbling Government, who have fcuked up in consecutive budgets. Ensured that it continued to live on Stamp Duty and Capital Gains tax, and rebuking Michael McDowell for trying to rock this cosy cartel in 2006. They failed in suceeding in the dubious "social partnership process"They ave forced people out on the street. Have claimed that the "most vunrable" will be looked after, while not doing so. They have bowed to public pressure, and will continue to bow to vested interests
- an opposition (save Fine Gael) who's pre budgetary statements higlight the bankruptcy of economic nous on all sides of the house
-An absentee Taoiseach, Tanaiste, and Minster For Finance.

We are in a global crisis, but we are feeling it worst, and will continue to feel it.

Kevster

You know what guys? - I'm actually coming around to the fact that - yes - the Irish government has a big part to blame in this. I still feel sorry for them but, as far as I know, Ireland is one of the worst-hit in Europe (re: the recession). How could we have gone from one of the best economies (in the world) to this (rhetorical question).

One thing is for sure, Fianna Fáil are out the door come the next election, as are Labour in England, and every other party in other nations who have presided over their respected nation during the recession.

Kevin

Kevster

Kevster wrote: »

You know what guys? - I'm actually coming around to the fact that - yes - the Irish government has a big part to blame in this.

Rofl.

I still feel sorry for them but, as far as I know, Ireland is one of the worst-hit in Europe (re: the recession). How could we have gone from one of the best economies (in the world) to this (rhetorical question).

Worst hit? hmm.. only because we fell from so high to... wherever it is we'll end up. We certainly haven't hit bottom yet.

But I'd say there are worse off countries which already had massive problems with their economies during the time that Ireland was going strong, and now they're without support (Consider how little Ireland and other "successful" countries are contributing to the EU now to support less advantaged countries)

One thing is for sure, Fianna Fáil are out the door come the next election, as are Labour in England, and every other party in other nations who have presided over their respected nation during the recession.

Kevin

Don't be too sure.. I've heard these sort of comments every time there's an election, and the Irish people continue to suprise me. FF could easily get back in. People may complain about them right up to the elections, but they'll be easily swayed by their traditional leanings, and the usual BS election rhetoric.

I won't discount FF from getting in again, until the elections are actually over.