Varnished floor damaged by water - any ideas?

mazza

Hi there,

We sanded and varnished our pine floor before Christmas and its slowly but surely getting damaged by water on our shoes, drops falling from drinks etc.

Its a suspended floor, about 70 years old which we sanded, stained and then varnished with Ronseal Diamond Coat (clear satin finish).

We gave it 5/6 coats - a lot I know, but it was recommended by a carpenter I know, its in a busy hall area and worked well for other areas of the house we treated the same. Varnish was touch dry in-between coats, similar to how we did it successfully before.

Basically, whenever water or even damp bags are put on the floor, the area goes "milky" - the more water the milkier. If any kind of alcohol is involved - drink or window cleaner its worse again.

Obviously this is bad news and will look really bad over time. No similar problems in any other areas of the house we varnished previously and have taken much worse abuse with no damage.

I've attached photos which hopefully show the problem clearly:

Floor1.jpg is where a small amount of beer was split and cleaned up properly immediately.

Floor2.jpg is where damp shoes or a bag were left for a short while.


Anyone got an idea what's up please? Any suggestions how to resolve - without sanding all varnish off which would threaten my sanity! - would be even more welcome.

Thanks in advance for any replies as I've always found folks here to be helpful with stuff like this!

Maz

10-10-20

I have Ronseal Diamond cost on my hall floor and it does not do that when wet.
I suspect you got a bad batch, or it dried too quickly perhaps?
Best drop an email to their helpdesk.

luckat

This is bizarre. My floors have been sanded a few times in the last 20 years, and that only happened once, when a flowerpot was sitting wet on a floor for a month or so.

I wonder did you let the varnish dry enough?

This is normally the procedure:

• Choose a dry spell so your varnish will dry completely.
• Hammer down all the nails and use a machine sander to sand away all traces of old paint or varnish, so the boards are basically pale wood.
• Go into the corners with a hand sander.
• Hoover up every last trace of sawdust, including dusting it down off the walls and picture rails, and hoovering again.
• Wash the floor with clean water and white vinegar on a damp cloth to take up every last trace of sawdust.
• Let it dry, then apply the first coat of varnish, and leave all the windows open so the horrid stuff can dry totally.
• Gently hand sand it, and wash again with clean water and white vinegar. Let it dry, then apply the second coat.
• Repeat with third and fourth coats.

One important thing - don't start sanding another room when you're varnishing the first - this will cause sawdust to get into the varnish, which seems to make it sort of porous. (Happened to me when some Polish students were paying their rent by doing this - lovely kids, but they'd never done the job before, and I have asthma so couldn't stay there to supervise.)

mazza

Thanks for the helpful replies.

@10-10-20: Yes, we did a big load of floor sanding and varnishing also with Ronseal Diamond Coat a few years ago (like yourself) and it turned out great with no similar problems.

My two fears prior to posting were as you outline: varnish not fully dry before revarnishing (more on that in a minute) or varnish was defective in some way (long shot, but you never know).

@luckat: Tis indeed bizarre and I never had something like this happen during previous floor sanding / varnishing.

The procedure we followed is pretty much as you outline (a few very minor deviations as you'd expect, but in principle the same) and are aware of doing all sanding first, cleaning up sawdust, importance of drying etc. Its not a job to be rushed or skimped on.

In general, we did two coats each day, maybe three on one day but these would have been well spaced out (8am, 2pm, 8/9pm), much longer drying gaps than the minimum 2 hours the instructions recommend. The varnish was definitely touch dry and fine to walk on in socks before the next coat went on.

I think I'll contact Ronseal's customer support as advised next week to see if they can help.

Anyone else got any suggestions in the meantime?

Many thanks again...

mad m

This looks like Blooming, when a surface is varnished and dampness gets onto surface creating a milky finish like yours. As was stated, this seems very unusual inside.


link

Wertz

Was this definitely done using Diamond Coat? There is a similar product called Diamond Glaze (by Dulux) which is a water based floor lacquer...if this is a water based lacquer then it could be the problem (due to compatability issues; see below)
If this is Diamond coat (oil based) then I can only think that the coating is either defective (either through incorrect application or bad batch) or that there is a problem with the preliminary coat of stain...what type of stain did you use? Was it a ground dye, oil dye, normal woodstain or what? It's quite possible that there is a compatability issue between the stain/dye and the topcoat.

Also, assuming this is the oil based varnish, personally I'd say that you didn't allow the preliminary varnish coats to fully cure/hard dry before applying the next coat(s). With any oil based finish you absolutely HAVE to allow full cure (NOT merely touch dry) before sanding and re-coating....when you don't, you risk poor adhesion and possible failure. It's somewhat possible that the poor adhesion between coats is allowing moisture to break the seal and reach the underlying wood leading to the milkiness.

[edit] As for how to fix? Hmmm...usually with substrate problems, you need to strip and refinish...trying to cover over them with further coats is only fooling yourself...

mazza

@mad m: Thanks for the link. It indeed sounds very much like blooming, but not sure on cause and don't think the remedies mentioned will work given this will repeatedly happen.

Wertz wrote: »

Was this definitely done using Diamond Coat? There is a similar product called Diamond Glaze (by Dulux) which is a water based floor lacquer...if this is a water based lacquer then it could be the problem (due to compatability issues; see below)
If this is Diamond coat (oil based) then I can only think that the coating is either defective (either through incorrect application or bad batch)

No, its definitely Ronseal Diamond Coat we used (just double checked), but this product seems to be water-based, not oil based as you suggest. See text at bottom of the package here: http://www.4home.ie/cf/productImage.cfm?p=0613126

Unless there are two variants of Diamond Coat?

Wertz wrote: »

or that there is a problem with the preliminary coat of stain...what type of stain did you use? Was it a ground dye, oil dye, normal woodstain or what? It's quite possible that there is a compatability issue between the stain/dye and the topcoat.

We did the staining with Colron Refined Wood Dye. I'm having problems finding the exact detailed product description online so to give you some of the essentials from the tin:

"...offers the same rich colour as traditional solvent based wood dyes but the waterbased formulation and light fast pigments ensure the colour resists discolouration and fading"

[from Application Instructions after basics about applying stain have been covered] "...Overcoat with Colron Refined Interior Lacquer to protect the surface allowing 1 hours dry time after applying the Wood Dye. If applying on flooring, use an appropriate Floor Varnish"

We didn't apply lacquer - assumed it was an EITHER lacquer OR varnish situation.

Colron and Ronseal products all seem to be owned by the same parent company so I would assume (hope?) they are compatible or at least warn if not!

Any thoughts?

Wertz wrote: »

Also, assuming this is the oil based varnish, personally I'd say that you didn't allow the preliminary varnish coats to fully cure/hard dry before applying the next coat(s).

I really think it was fully dry / cured and certainly left it as long as previous big floor varnishing jobs which I had no problems with. If its dry enough to slide across in socks (if you were so inclined ) I would have thought that was dry enough!

Wertz wrote: »

As for how to fix? Hmmm...usually with substrate problems, you need to strip and refinish...trying to cover over them with further coats is only fooling yourself...

Aaargh!!! :eek:

Thanks for the advice and will update once I have some input from Ronseal customer support.

Wertz

Sorry been offline for a few days....going by your reply you most likley have a compatability issue between the colron wood dye (oil/solvent base) and the water based topcoat. Wasn't aware ronseal did a water based floor varnish. It doesn't necessarily follow that two products form the same company will be suitable for use with each other
I know the last time we did a floor like this we'd to use a ground dye (solvent base) that was specifically compatible with the water based topcoat.
Your problem reminds me of a problem I've seen on cheap veneer top tables, especially darker coloured finishes where any sort of heat or moisture will leave a cloudy mark/ring that may or may not fade with time.
tbh I don't rate water based wood finishes...they are very convenient in terms of drying time and how quickly you can finish a job and they are as tough wearing as oil/solvent finishes but I just don't feel right putting water based products on timber.
Let us know how you get on anyhow.

mad m

Wertz wrote: »

tbh I don't rate water based wood finishes...they are very convenient in terms of drying time and how quickly you can finish a job and they are as tough wearing as oil/solvent finishes but I just don't feel right putting water based products on timber.

Very convenient, and no stinging eyes or coughing your guts up, even with good breathing apparatus. Done this recently on my sitting room floor. It had 3-4coats of two pack cellouse lacquer, sanded the be-jaysus out of it and put on Dulux ten times tougher water based lacquer. Very happy with the results. Floor will mark over a time but what floor doesnt, I know I will get atleast another 6years out of it before I sand it down again.