Whats the story with the Irish Anti War Movement?

JonnyBlackrock

The Saint wrote: »

Boyd Barrett is a self promoting twat.

Couldn't have put it better myself. My only worry is that as I live in Dunleary he will turn up on my doorstep looking for votes. I'll have to think up creative ways to tell him to f-off.

Fratton Fred

At risk of repeating myself...if the world was under attack by aliens and the only thing preventing the anhilation of the human race was the US and UK militaries, these guys would be cheering for the aliens.

JonnyBlackrock

lostexpectation wrote: »

who said they're pacifist?

They say they're pacifist by calling themselves the "anti-war movement".

But in reality they're nothing of the kind. At least they should be honest with us (and with themselves) and call themselves the "anti wars we're involved in movement" or the "anti wars that the west is involved in movement" or the "anti wars the Americans are involved in movement". The "anti-war movement" name is by definition a pacifist message.

Scofflaw

lostexpectation wrote: »

the difference is our country is involved thats what i was saying.

I'm asking you why that makes a difference, other than that people feel "our" hands are dirty.

lostexpectation wrote: »

huh passive? we're actively involved to an extent,when you compare it to chechnya, we are, how are we involved in chechnya, i'd love to know, where are the russian troops going through shannon on their way to chechnya?

What relevance does that have?

lostexpectation wrote: »

im still sensing you don't _really_ give a **** about shannon

Don't feel free to project on me, or anyone else. I'm not fixated on it to the exception of other issues, if that's what you mean.

cordially,
Scofflaw

lostexpectation

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm asking you why that makes a difference, other than that people feel "our" hands are dirty.

What relevance does that have?

Don't feel free to project on me, or anyone else. I'm not fixated on it to the exception of other issues, if that's what you mean.

that is the difference.

you clearly don't think its an issue at all

you're comparing non-existent russian military planes and troops with real american planes military planes and troops passing through shannon.

thats pretty dismissive for all your claims to be concerned about the issue.

toiletduck

snollup wrote: »

Aside from what their website says, what's the story with the Irish Anti-War Movement? Are they genuine, heart in right place, etc..., or is there something more sinister to them?

As has been said, they're not anti-war as such merely anti-US/UK/Israeli wars. Our local crowd here in Galway (Galway Alliance Against War) think nothing of manning the usual stands on shop street, protesting visiting Israeli ambassador (to NUIG) etc yet they have invited members of Hezbollah to speak at talks organised by them? I think this is the same kinda tune held by all the fronts. I mean we did have a little tiff between Russia and Georgia during the Summer and no protests.

Woger

toiletduck wrote: »

As has been said, they're not anti-war as such merely anti-US/UK/Israeli wars. Our local crowd here in Galway (Galway Alliance Against War) think nothing of manning the usual stands on shop street, protesting visiting Israeli ambassador (to NUIG) etc yet they have invited members of Hezbollah to speak at talks organised by them? I think this is the same kinda tune held by all the fronts. I mean we did have a little tiff between Russia and Georgia during the Summer and no protests.

To be fair they would have no problem living under a Hezbollah run country.

bobbyjoe

Who are Hezbollah at war with?

astrofool

I always think it's funny when these groups go on about a war being illeeeegal, as if that is something that will stop a war.

OhNoYouDidn't

I hate to bring facts into it, but the article states that he is "of the IAWM", not there in his capacity in the IAWM. My reading of that is that they are his private opinions. So this thread is somewhat disingenious.

IIRC RBB was a zionist and was in a Kibbutz when the first intifada kicked off and the violence he witnessed first hand from the IDF radicalised him.

Scofflaw

lostexpectation wrote: »

that is the difference.

you clearly don't think its an issue at all

you're comparing non-existent russian military planes and troops with real american planes military planes and troops passing through shannon.

thats pretty dismissive for all your claims to be concerned about the issue.

Um, no - it's just that I don't follow the logic whereby the question of whether something is right or not is determined by reference to "military planes and troops passing through shannon".

Surely what makes the planes and troops passing through Shannon a problem is that they are on their way to fight an pseudo-imperial war. Russian actions in Chechnya, I would have thought, remain wrong despite their failure to use Shannon...

slightly mystified,
Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't

Scofflaw wrote: »

Um, no - it's just that I don't follow the logic whereby the question of whether something is right or not is determined by reference to "military planes and troops passing through shannon".

Surely what makes the planes and troops passing through Shannon a problem is that they are on their way to fight an pseudo-imperial war. Russian actions in Chechnya, I would have thought, remain wrong despite their failure to use Shannon...

slightly mystified,
Scofflaw

I would think its quite straightforward. The Irish government and their supporters allowed public infrastructure to be used, at a cost to the Irish tax payer, in the US war effort. Therefore a target for protest that could achieve change and put a dent in that machine was there.

A huge part of the IAWM's stance is Irish neutrality and how we assisted in the Project for a New American Century. 125,000 people on the streets put the fear of god into FF. We will have to wait till the next war to see if it made a difference.

No-one in Ireland was assisting the Russian war effort, or even defending theor actions, so there was less point in mobilising (although there were protests over it IIRC) as there was nothing that could be acheived.

You know all this.

OhNoYouDidn't

toiletduck wrote: »

I mean we did have a little tiff between Russia and Georgia during the Summer and no protests.

Are there any Russian or Georgian targets to protest in Galway? Anyone in government pick a side on our behalf in that spat?

Apples. Oranges.

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I would think its quite straightforward. The Irish government and their supporters allowed public infrastructure to be used, at a cost to the Irish tax payer, in the US war effort. Therefore a target for protest that could achieve change and put a dent in that machine was there.

A huge part of the IAWM's stance is Irish neutrality and how we assisted in the Project for a New American Century. 125,000 people on the streets put the fear of god into FF. We will have to wait till the next war to see if it made a difference.

No-one in Ireland was assisting the Russian war effort, or even defending theor actions, so there was less point in mobilising (although there were protests over it IIRC) as there was nothing that could be acheived.

You know all this.

No, but I was willing to have it explained. Yours is a reasonable explanation, rather let down by the assumption that anyone who asks a question is actually secretly attacking you - something shared by lostexpectation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

IRISH RAIL

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Who are Hezbollah at war with?

ISRAEL
Even though they say they are there to defend Lebannon when Israel left Lebannon they still kept the rockets coming even he other day they were caught by Eygpt trying to launch attacks in the Sinai desert.

Scofflaw

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

ISRAEL
Even though they say they are there to defend Lebannon when Israel left Lebannon they still kept the rockets coming even he other day they were caught by Eygpt trying to launch attacks in the Sinai desert.

Just to make the point that if you want an Israel thread, start an Israel thread - this is not one.

moderately,
Scofflaw

O'Coonassa

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Anyone in government pick a side on our behalf in that spat?

As good 'Yurpeens' we're squarely behind the dictator in Georgia you'll be relieved to hear.

OhNoYouDidn't

Scofflaw wrote: »

No, but I was willing to have it explained. Yours is a reasonable explanation, rather let down by the assumption that anyone who asks a question is actually secretly attacking you - something shared by lostexpectation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Eh?

IRISH RAIL

Scofflaw wrote: »

Just to make the point that if you want an Israel thread, start an Israel thread - this is not one.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I just answered a question.

Scofflaw

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Eh?

Perhaps I took up the "You know all this." the wrong way...? If so, my apologies! I assumed it meant that I knew why IAWM do what they do, and was pretending not to.

cordially,
Scofflaw

IRISH RAIL

Can anyone clarify exactly the links between swp and the anti west group IAWM ? And does the IAWM collect money for support etc?
wouldnt it be akin to political funding under false pretences if there was a link?

OhNoYouDidn't

IRISH RAIL wrote: »

Can anyone clarify exactly the links between swp and the anti west group IAWM ? And does the IAWM collect money for support etc?
wouldnt it be akin to political funding under false pretences if there was a link?

You mean anti-war surely? A freudian slip if I have ever seen one.

The SWP are one of a number of political parties who are founding members of and fund the IAWM. Ditto groups like People Before Profit and the Anti-Nazi League.

If the IAWM raise funds they keep them. At a local level they are well within their rights to donate to individual candidates, but I have not heard of that happening.

Gambit32

Richard Boyd Barrett is a fantastic figurehead for the SWP and the left wing movement in Ireland in general,he epitomises this whole collection to a tee,spoit upper middle class arts students,who come from a wealthy background,and have every ooportunity in life,but choose to be Che Guevara on the weekend,all talk and pie and the sky,no substance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Its funny how these 'anti imperealists and socialists' are so concerned about Iraq and the conflict there,but areant at all bothered about the British occupation of the Northern 6 counties,surely if your a socialist and Irish,that would be your priorty,but it clearly isnt,salmon socialists is a term that springs to mind

OhNoYouDidn't

Gambit32 wrote: »

Richard Boyd Barrett is a fantastic figurehead for the SWP and the left wing movement in Ireland in general,he epitomises this whole collection to a tee,spoit upper middle class arts students,who come from a wealthy background,and have every ooportunity in life,but choose to be Che Guevara on the weekend,all talk and pie and the sky,no substance,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Its funny how these 'anti imperealists and socialists' are so concerned about Iraq and the conflict there,but areant at all bothered about the British occupation of the Northern 6 counties,surely if your a socialist and Irish,that would be your priorty,but it clearly isnt,salmon socialists is a term that springs to mind

You are saying RBB and his party "aren't at all bothered" about the 6 counties?

Hold on. RBB is SWP. The SWP include Eamonn McCann as a member ffs. They argued that the IRA should arm and train everyone in the 6 to fight back. The Shinners counter argued they needed to relax.

Epic Fail.

Gambit32

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You are saying RBB and his party "aren't at all bothered" about the 6 counties?

Hold on. RBB is SWP. The SWP include Eamonn McCann as a member ffs. They argued that the IRA should arm and train everyone in the 6 to fight back. The Shinners counter argued they needed to relax.

Epic Fail.

I never remember hearing anything like this,if they feel so strongly on the matter why didnt they join the IRA(maybe some did,but its highly unlikely)?,and Id hardly hold Eamonn McCann on any sort of pedestal,he wouldnt be regarded high in republican circles,republicans dont want a reformed Northern Ireland,they want a United Ireland

OhNoYouDidn't

Gambit32 wrote: »

I never remember hearing anything like this,if they feel so strongly on the matter why didnt they join the IRA(maybe some did,but its highly unlikely)?,and Id hardly hold Eamonn McCann on any sort of pedestal,he wouldnt be regarded high in republican circles,republicans dont want a reformed Northern Ireland,they want a United Ireland

Eamonn McCann wants a reformed Northen Ireland?

Well you heard it here first folks.....

McCann was a de facto spokesperson for the Provisional movement when they were banned off the airwaves and is held in very high regard by PSF. Look at his work on Bloody Sunday.

I think the reason the SWP didn't join the IRA is because as Trots they oppose vanguard armies and encourage ordinary people to take action.

Claiming the SWP are not anti-British occupation is plain ignorance. You actually couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Gambit32

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Eamonn McCann wants a reformed Northen Ireland?

Well you heard it here first folks.....

McCann was a de facto spokesperson for the Provisional movement when they were banned off the airwaves and is held in very high regard by PSF. Look at his work on Bloody Sunday.

I think the reason the SWP didn't join the IRA is because as Trots they oppose vanguard armies and encourage ordinary people to take action.

Claiming the SWP are not anti-British occupation is plain ignorance. You actually couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

No you think Im wrong mo chara,and maybe it depends who you ask whose right and whose wrong,but from a republican perspective Eamon McCann is not someone who would be regarded highly in republican circles,maybe today,since Provisional Sinn Fein has gone down the reformist path and embraced constitutionalism,maybe now they embrace his reformist moderate nationalist aspirations,but in the republican movements heyday when they held true republican principles,someone like Eamon McCann wouldnt fit the fold,the IRA wanted to destory the Northern state and the Southern state and make way for a federalist sovreign republic,a reformed equal 'Northern Ireland',was not on the card,an in regards the SWP,who cares,what have they ever done to advance anything,other then shout slogans and carry little cardboard signs that say SWP

OhNoYouDidn't

Gambit32 wrote: »

No you think Im wrong mo chara,and maybe it depends who you ask whose right and whose wrong,but from a republican perspective Eamon McCann is not someone who would be regarded highly in republican circles,maybe today,since Provisional Sinn Fein has gone down the reformist path and embraced constitutionalism,maybe now they embrace his reformist moderate nationalist aspirations,but in the republican movements heyday when they held true republican principles,someone like Eamon McCann wouldnt fit the fold,the IRA wanted to destory the Northern state and the Southern state and make way for a federalist sovreign republic,a reformed equal 'Northern Ireland',was not on the card,an in regards the SWP,who cares,what have they ever done to advance anything,other then shout slogans and carry little cardboard signs that say SWP

So to sum up, you were wrong.

Gambit32

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So to sum up, you were wrong.

Probably but whose gonna split hairs here on this issue,every country has there annoying weekend lefties

lostexpectation

Jack Wall (Kildare South, Labour)

Question 72: To ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs his views on reports that a leading Chechen opposed to the current pro-Russian Federation Chechen leader was recently assassinated in Dubai. [15389/09]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Minister, Department of Foreign Affairs; Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)

According to reports available to me, Sulim Yamadayev was killed by a group of men in a parking lot outside his apartment in Dubai on 28 March 2009. I understand that Mr Yamadayev was for several years a military commander in Chechnya and served under Russian federal command, before being relieved of his duties late last year.

On April 5, the Dubai police identified Adam Delimkhanov, a Chechen member of the Russian State Duma, as one of the suspects in his murder. They have indicated that two men are being held in connection with the attack, and that international warrants will be issued for four others, including Mr Delimkhanov, who has denied any complicity in the murder. The Foreign Minister of the Russian Federation, Sergei Lavrov, stated on 10 April that an official report is awaited from the Dubai authorities.

clearly he expresses no view, should i be outraged or not?