suspend our overseas aid and spend the money in Ireland

edanto

ynotdu wrote: »

I also hear through folklore that a native American tribe heard about the Irish famine and sent to Ireland what little they could send.Does Anybody know if this is true ? Logisticly how did they do it ? Fascinating if true.

Irish Times - Wed 05 May 2007
Native Americans remember Irish famine donation
Descendants of a native American tribe who raised funds for Irish famine victims visited Ireland this week, rekindling an unlikely relationship forged 160 years ago.In 1847 a group of impoverished Choctaw native Americans collected $710 and sent it to a famine relief fund for Ireland.

funky.monkey wrote:

Why not temporarily stop the overseas aid which seems to be hundreds of millions of euros, and use that money to sort out the Irish economy first.

Because people living in poverty need our help. It doesn't sound like you have any notion of global poverty or the relative difference in need between Malawi and Malahide.

People in Ireland will lose their jobs, maybe I will, and I'll be a bit worse off. I'll have to live on the dole maybe, but I'll survive.

There is no social welfare in most African countries. 1 in 6 people in the world are hungry right now. Of course, we could get into a long debate about why the world is so unfair, but cleverer people than us have had that debate before. So you can look it up instead of just mouthing off.

P. Breathnach

ynotdu wrote: »

... I also hear through folklore that a native American tribe heard about the Irish famine and sent to Ireland what little they could send.Does Anybody know if this is true ? ...

The Choctaws. See http://newsok.com/article/3216451

Grudaire

Thanks for the link Suas.

Anyone who disagrees with overseas aid sicken me. They probably spend as much on Mocha Choca Uppa Holla Latte in a week as it costs them. What has happened in Ireland - people have become so mindlessly greedy it's sickening. For years the greed that has lead to us being such a rich country has directly caused the poverty in many countries. And yet we're not responsible at all?

I am increasing losing respect for most aspects of Ireland.

Dr Galen

If notions like the OP's and his supporters ever catch on, it will be a very sad day indeed.

That's not to say that how aid cash is distributed and spent couldn't be improved, helping people to help themselves, to coin an already used phrase. Opening up trade links, encouraging education, providing the tools to create incomes and jobs for people in the poorer regions of the world is definitely a moral obligation of those of us far far better off.

In fact, I'd like to hear the OP's views on taking the money we are wasting in this country on dole fraud, disability allowance fraud and other such welfare scams and using that to help out those in genuine need, both home and abroad?

Grudaire

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

That's not to say that how aid cash is distributed and spent couldn't be improved, helping people to help themselves, to coin an already used phrase. Opening up trade links, encouraging education, providing the tools to create incomes and jobs for people in the poorer regions of the world is definitely a moral obligation of those of us far far better off.

Not saying that it's perfect but as far as I know Ireland has one of the better aid systems - avoiding tied aid (the bad kind which basically sends the money all the way to the donor country)

wylo

The people who are on for getting rid of aid are the 'ignorance is bliss' greedy brigade. If they really saw how bad it was in some of them countries Im sure they'd change their minds, I can only hope so anyway.

Dr Galen

in fairness how can they not know how bad it is? All you have to do is switch on the TV and watch a bit of news and it becomes apparent that people are living in total poverty. People living in such conditions would more than likely welcome with open arms the poverty that exists here.

ArphaRima

While I dont agree with suspending our overseas aid programmes, I do believe that our aid given as a percentage of GDP/GNP(can never remember which) should remain constant. Monies given should rise and fall with our economy.

Charities were clamouring for 0.7% of GDP as a standard. I always thought that figure far too high.
However, lets say we were at 0.5% last year, I would be in favour of maintaining that percentage. That is to say I propose we reduce our spending on charity.

Barname

I notice alot of Charity and NGO bloodsuckers have much spare time for posting on their hands.....

the greedy cabal that pays themselves inflated wages in this country all the while pretending to care about the 3rd world so as the unaware continue to line the bloodsuckers pockets...

Dont you just love that oxymoron.... 'Charity CEO'

brianthebard

TomRooney wrote: »

whoa a whole 0.03 of a percent...!!!

aid from ireland should be stopped immediately, we cant fund our own hospitals, infrastructure, or general economy.

i would prefer to see 10 million euro spent on securing anti cancer vaccinations for the youth of today than sent to a foriegn country to be spent on arms by some african warlord.
not to mention what the other many millions could pay for.

You can show that Irish aid is being spent on arms by a warlord?

ArphaRima

I can be 100% certain of the fact that some of Ireland's money has been spent by warlords. It's the nature of charity work in third world countries.

Everybody must get their cut. If money enters an area, the local man(commander/politician/charity head/whatever) gets a percentage.

This is no reason to not give, only a reason to place restrictions and controls in place. This is why I only give to charities on the ground/in situ. Giving from this far away leaves the supply chain too long, with far too many fingers in the pie.
It's also a major reason why I oppose government taxes being used on charities. They mismanage our funds, and have insufficient controls in place to ensure the supply line is ''clean''.

http://www.alertnet.org/thefacts/reliefresources/11315551833.htm

Two case's I saw personally were the Bird Flu payouts in Vietnam and the post-tsunami funds in SE Asia. Many a minister, farmer, and rich-kid were seen with fancy new cars and houses in the wake of those crises.

edanto

Barname wrote: »

Lets set up Water Finders, the army can run it, stop this gap year crap, 18 months compulsary service, Ireland Inc can deliver water sources to drought hit areas.

Water - the key to life.

It would be a superior way for us to aid the world

No more easy cash for NGOs of duplicity

1. What do you know about NGOs that you think they waste money? Put up or shut up. Provide evidence of systematic wastage to support your opinion, one or two examples won't really cut it.

2. Your water idea seems good. I suggest that you write out a detailed application to Irish Aid, complete with 5 year costings, a way of measuring impact and efficiency and a way of securing matching funding. You should also investigate who else is working in that area and if your Irish Army idea is the most efficient way to tackle the problem. For instance, if the project was to cost €6m, perhaps the impact of giving the €6m to playpumps.org or www.charitywater.org/ would be better.

3. I take offense at you calling me and others that are supportive of/working for NGOs bloodsuckers. If you search my post history you'll find me giving out about plenty of other people that are more deserving of the title, wealthy people here that pay hardly any tax, massive corporations that exploit weaker countries to use their resources and labour to make junk products that have fuelled the consumer bust or parasitic derivatives traders that have completely destroyed our financial system. Walk away, have a think and get some perspective mate.

ArphaRima

Do you work with a charity or Irish Aid?

I only ask so as to be able to research anti-coruption measures being taken by our state.
Here's the UK response:
http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/draft-bribery-bill.htm

edanto

I don't think it's relevant who I work for, but as it happens I work for Suas. You're welcome to come in and meet our Financial Controller if you have time to get involved.

Anti-corruption is of huge importance, you won't find anyone in the NGO sector to disagree with that.

What doesn't make the news as much is the other types of criminality contributing to inequality. One good report that I read a year or two was by Christian Aid (btw, they have a great tag line - we believe in life before death) - google Christian Aid tax report

The main point I'd like to make in this thread is that the proportion of the budget being spent on Overseas Aid pales in comparison to the proportion being spent on Welfare for example. People in Ireland have plenty of problems of course, and luckily our government is in a position to spend a third of the budget on Welfare. In many African countries, they have spent more on debt interest than that have received in Aid (Obviously they shouldn't have taken the loans and in many cases wasted the money).

But we have a good welfare system. I would prefer that the government stuck to its guns on the commitment to share 0.7% of GDP with poorer countries and I think that is morally and economically justifiable.

EDIT: I'm not sure what percentage of our budget that 0.7% of GDP would add up to - can anyone find out?

r0nanf

The level of contempt that has been shown for humankind on this thread is quite frankly disgusting. Coupled with the ridiculous claims of everybody from African warlords to the EU fishing cartels (??) getting one over on our good nature, it's hard to see what country some of us think we live in.

Where would anyone of us - no matter our nationality - be without the compassion or help of our fellow man? Those who are better off do have a responsibility to help others, and those who are worse off should have a right to be helped. I'm sickened to see the level of support for this xenophobic, hate mongering bullsh*t. Hopefully those of you who've advocated cutting our overseas aid never suffer anything worse than the dole queue.

P. Breathnach

Barname wrote: »

I notice alot of Charity and NGO bloodsuckers have much spare time for posting on their hands.....

the greedy cabal that pays themselves inflated wages in this country all the while pretending to care about the 3rd world so as the unaware continue to line the bloodsuckers pockets...

Dont you just love that oxymoron.... 'Charity CEO'

That is one of the ugliest posts I have seen in this forum.

ArphaRima

I don't think it's relevant who I work for

Sorry I didnt intend to ask you who you worked for, only if you worked for a charity.

My viewpoint is that with a deterioration in tax income, there should be a proportionate decrease in monies donated.

Separate to that I have always thought controls on corruption have been lax. I've personally seen this corruption first hand. It does exist. It is prevalent. And all charities must downplay it. They (rightfully)do this to keep the contributions coming so they can do their work.
Also to access the areas they want, to bring in equipment and personnel they need to pay.. To hire locally they are restricted to certain companies. The list goes on. Every country is different and the extent of corruption varies greatly.
My question is, to what extent does the irish government put restrictions on the use of Irish taxpayers money? Is the money tracked all the way down the line, and do figures exist for wasteage etc.
I do not condone people blankly refusing to commit because "sure it only goes to the wrong people". A percentage always will. It's our job to ensure that percentage is as small as possible.

TomRooney

livvy wrote: »

I can see where you are coming from and this is certainly not our but as human beings living in a developed country - I do think we have a moral responsibility to assist where possible..... Ensuring a child is fed or has access to basic medical aid surely are higher on the priority list than what ever luxury items we are forsaking at present. We have had a fairly short period of hardship, not many 09 on the road, but are we really starving ?

realy thats all very fine and dandy....but who is going to make sure irish children are fed and clothed, who is going to pay the rent and mortages of thousands of people who cant afford it due to job losses, whos going to pay for thousands of irish loans that just cant be paid back....?

i have no problem with the idea of aid, but i believe our forst priority of this nation is its citizens everything else is second place to that.

TomRooney

Scofflaw wrote: »

If that was even remotely true, then 35 years of EU membership would have made us poorer than when we joined.

regards,
Scofflaw

it is all factualy correct do you have evidence to the contrary...besides your opinion i mean.

Irelands boom had nothing to do with the EU that is pure Myth.
it would have happened anyway, just like the boom in the 70`s the come and they go.

if the EU was so great it would be evident in the bad times, if the EU was so great why then has Ireland been a poor nation for the vast majority of time it has been in the EU, such as all through the 50`s 60`s 80` early 90`s and now we are going back into the bad times again. the EU has done Ireland no favours and never will, there interest in Ireland is purely selfish.

TomRooney

ynotdu wrote: »

Ah sure Irelands famine was no other countries responsibility either,as They saw it !

the "FAMINE" was actualy an attempt at ethnic cleansing by the british, you dont realy believe all the irish people ate was potatoes do you...?

the british took every scrap of food and livestock out of Ireland to feed there colonial armys.
resulting in the mass starvation of our people, which was convineintly and decietfully put down to a widespread potato crop failure

TomRooney

Nodin wrote: »

Well, if the world were to adopt the 'divil take the hindmost' attitude, we wouldn't have gotten into the EU, let alone been given aid.

Theres plenty of money to reward failed Bank executives here....Fingleton alone has a pension of 27.5 million. Then theres Drumm, Fitzpatrick etc. And of course theres the top earners paying less than the top tax rate, and some paying well below the bottom. If you want to wield a hatchet, why not swing it at them, and not the least well off of the world?

hold on there Tonto, i am not a banker and they too should be held accountable i didnt vote for fianna fail the corruption party, who are hand in hand with the ruling classes.
but that is no reason to ignore the fact hundreds of millions of euro of tax payers money is being given away scott free with no real indicatioon that it is having a shred of impact on the nations recieving it, they still remain corrupt and mis ruled why should we throw our money away in such a futile manner.

i am not against aid, i am against giving tax payers money away, when our hospitals are in a drastic state, and when our infrastructure is like that of a third world country, and when thousands of IRISH people face possible homlessness, and thousands of IRISH citizens face real poverty.

ynotdu

edanto wrote: »

Irish Times - Wed 05 May 2007
Native Americans remember Irish famine donation
Descendants of a native American tribe who raised funds for Irish famine victims visited Ireland this week, rekindling an unlikely relationship forged 160 years ago.In 1847 a group of impoverished Choctaw native Americans collected $710 and sent it to a famine relief fund for Ireland.



Because people living in poverty need our help. It doesn't sound like you have any notion of global poverty or the relative difference in need between Malawi and Malahide.

People in Ireland will lose their jobs, maybe I will, and I'll be a bit worse off. I'll have to live on the dole maybe, but I'll survive.

There is no social welfare in most African countries. 1 in 6 people in the world are hungry right now. Of course, we could get into a long debate about why the world is so unfair, but cleverer people than us have had that debate before. So you can look it up instead of just mouthing off.

A quote from the times from 2007 ? No element of sarcasmn here,how did You do it ? I agree with You totally

dan719

TomRooney wrote: »

it is all factualy correct do you have evidence to the contrary...besides your opinion i mean.

Irelands boom had nothing to do with the EU that is pure Myth.
it would have happened anyway, just like the boom in the 70`s the come and they go.

if the EU was so great it would be evident in the bad times, if the EU was so great why then has Ireland been a poor nation for the vast majority of time it has been in the EU, such as all through the 50`s 60`s 80` early 90`s and now we are going back into the bad times again. the EU has done Ireland no favours and never will, there interest in Ireland is purely selfish.

This is absolute rubbish and although it is completely off-topic it has to be refuted. One of the main reasons that Ireland experienced the Celtic Tiger was due to membership of the EU. This was for two main reasons;

The receipt of structural funds for investment.

The increased attractiveness to FDI due to membership of a common trading area.

Source; After the Celtic Tiger, Economy of Ireland (O'Hagan and Newman) and any non-retarded economics book with regard to Ireland.

If you want to be a little more technical about it, and describe Ireland's growth as little more than overdue conditional convergence (countries in similar situations will eventually reach a steady state, with similar standards of living as measured by GDP per capita.) Note, I don't necessarily agree with this, than it suggests that the reason Ireland 'caught up' with richer EU member states was that by joining the EU we were able to recreate similar circumstances with regards to capital formation and so on.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exogenous_growth_model

ynotdu

TomRooney wrote: »

hold on there Tonto, i am not a banker and they too should be held accountable i didnt vote for fianna fail the corruption party, who are hand in hand with the ruling classes.
but that is no reason to ignore the fact hundreds of millions of euro of tax payers money is being given away scott free with no real indicatioon that it is having a shred of impact on the nations recieving it, they still remain corrupt and mis ruled why should we throw our money away in such a futile manner.

i am not against aid, i am against giving tax payers money away, when our hospitals are in a drastic state, and when our infrastructure is like that of a third world country, and when thousands of IRISH people face possible homlessness, and thousands of IRISH citizens face real poverty.

Money given to third world Countries to be subserviant to the erm higher powers on the planet,Never enough for them to be independant,control freakery,dictatorship through donating democracys to try keep them sweet and friendly so they could be exploited for military purposes or their oil reserves ?

TomRooney

livvy wrote: »

We have had a fairly short period of hardship, not many 09 on the road, but are we really starving ?

what do you mean "we" do me a favour and dont speak on my behalf.
YOU may have had a short period of hardship, but most of my life has been struggling and hardship, JUST LIKE MOST WORKING CLASS PEOPLE who actualy make up the majority of this countrys population, just because you are comfortable dont make assumptions that we all are.

i know tonight there are familys in places like Finglas, Ballymun, Coolock, north inner city, south inner city, Ballyfermot, Crumlim and so on that have not got a penny to spare, i mean they havent got 1 penny! and there fridge will be almost empty, there bills overdue and no money for rent.
i know there are familys in Ireland who will have no home next week husband wife and children without a home through no fault of there own.

there are thousands of IRISH people struggling to survive.

now you tell these people and ask them how good they have it.

dont forget this country only had about 10 years of reasonably decent employment that is all gone now and it was realy only big business and people who where already rich who realy profited from the mythical "celtic tiger", before that we had 13 years of absolute poverty in working class areas, and that is what will happen again.

if only people like you and the rest of the people with your view here had the same passion and concern for there fellow citizens as the have for foreign far off countrys then we would have no problems at all.

ynotdu

dan719 wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish and although it is completely off-topic it has to be refuted. One of the main reasons that Ireland experienced the Celtic Tiger was due to membership of the EU. This was for two main reasons;

The receipt of structural funds for investment.

The increased attractiveness to FDI due to membership of a common trading area.

Source; After the Celtic Tiger, Economy of Ireland (O'Hagan and Newman) and any non-retarded economics book with regard to Ireland.

If you want to be a little more technical about it, and describe Ireland's growth as little more than overdue conditional convergence (countries in similar situations will eventually reach a steady state, with similar standards of living as measured by GDP per capita.) Note, I don't necessarily agree with this, than it suggests that the reason Ireland 'caught up' with richer EU member states was that by joining the EU we were able to recreate similar circumstances with regards to capital formation and so on.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exogenous_growth_model

capitilism is and by nature will continue to be cyclical.It conforms closely to human nature,survivol of the fittest at time that suits the enviroment of their day.I dont think Ireland ever got a break for longer than a decade lol

TomRooney

dan719 wrote: »

This is absolute rubbish and although it is completely off-topic it has to be refuted. One of the main reasons that Ireland experienced the Celtic Tiger was due to membership of the EU. This was for two main reasons;

The receipt of structural funds for investment.

The increased attractiveness to FDI due to membership of a common trading area.

Source; After the Celtic Tiger, Economy of Ireland (O'Hagan and Newman) and any non-retarded economics book with regard to Ireland.

If you want to be a little more technical about it, and describe Ireland's growth as little more than overdue conditional convergence (countries in similar situations will eventually reach a steady state, with similar standards of living as measured by GDP per capita.) Note, I don't necessarily agree with this, than it suggests that the reason Ireland 'caught up' with richer EU member states was that by joining the EU we were able to recreate similar circumstances with regards to capital formation and so on.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exogenous_growth_model

what you spout here is absolute tripe, if you want to give the EU credit for a 10 year boom, then you must also attribute the other 25 years of absolute poverty to them you cant pick and choose.

the reason there was a construction boom, is simply because Ireland had a highly skilled workforce and needed housing, the US is more to thank than the EU, the USA IT industry invested heavily in Ireland in the early 90`s. Ireland has gas reserves of the west coast estimated at Millions of sqaure meteres worth of natural Gas, we have hundreds of miles of pristine water for fishing, we have mines that give us all types of ore, we have clay to make blocks and bricks, not every country has these assets

the EU has purely selfish interests in Ireland. you will see in the future.

edanto

fluffer wrote: »

My question is, to what extent does the irish government put restrictions on the use of Irish taxpayers money? Is the money tracked all the way down the line, and do figures exist for wasteage etc.

I can really only speak to what I know well, but you will find a lot of the answers to those questions in reports on the IA website.

In our case, we carry out regular financial audits of our partners overseas, we are regularly audited ourselves by funding bodies as well as the standard company (all charities are companies in Ireland, just nonprofit) audits.

There would be a false economy in establishing a verifiable reporting mechanism for absolutely every cent spent on aid, as who would fund such a scheme and from what monies?

But all aid that I have firsthand experience of is well spent and you can rest assured I wouldn't be working 50 hours a week in a job at half market salary if I thought any of it was wasted. As you can probably tell, I enjoy spending hours researching things that I am passionate about.

There are a lot of steps involved in stamping out corruption. An independent apolitical media, a more educated population, international audits, open elections and a good communications platform in the country. Me, I'm supporting education projects, but there are a long list of ways for people to get involved in providing the other essential ingredients.

ynotdu

Barname wrote: »

I notice alot of Charity and NGO bloodsuckers have much spare time for posting on their hands.....

the greedy cabal that pays themselves inflated wages in this country all the while pretending to care about the 3rd world so as the unaware continue to line the bloodsuckers pockets...

Dont you just love that oxymoron.... 'Charity CEO'

plenty of truth in what You say but dont tar all with the same brush,Many are brave&Idealistic,We dont want to lose that do we ?

ynotdu

TomRooney wrote: »

it is all factualy correct do you have evidence to the contrary...besides your opinion i mean.

Irelands boom had nothing to do with the EU that is pure Myth.
it would have happened anyway, just like the boom in the 70`s the come and they go.

if the EU was so great it would be evident in the bad times, if the EU was so great why then has Ireland been a poor nation for the vast majority of time it has been in the EU, such as all through the 50`s 60`s 80` early 90`s and now we are going back into the bad times again. the EU has done Ireland no favours and never will, there interest in Ireland is purely selfish.

Tomrooney Ireland did not enter the eu until the 1970,s.De Gaulle in France hated England so much He would not let U.K join and Ireland was far too dependant on exports to U.K to rock the boat