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Northern Ireland Friends of Israel

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    #62
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How does supporting Israel's existence constitute a stab at nationalists? There is an Irish Friends of Israel down here in the Republic.

    Considering who is involved in this instance, I think it pretty clear what there intent is.


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    #63
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    [sarcasm]Well the Israeli's managed to kick out a whole bunch of pesky Palestinians (despite the fact they were the indigenous people) without too much fuss. That could always be tried, and I am sure the Friends of Isreal, won't mind, as they approve of Israels methods.[/sarcasm]


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    #64
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    wes wrote: »
    Considering who is involved in this instance, I think it pretty clear what there intent is.

    So if you're from NI, and if you are a Protestant and you support Israel's existence, you must therefore have an ill intent. Think for a second about how fallacious that is.


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    #65
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #66
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    As i said i watched a programme (by the BBC if my memory serves me correct) that looked at how being anti-isreal was masking a anti-semetic strain within the left, i did not make the programme, i did not write the programme i merely watched it, so kindly stop trying to jump down my throat, i merely mentioned it as part of this dicsussion about isreal when you asked for prove i did a very quick inter search and it brought up that link i posted which is itself a left wing site. At no point did i say everybody who is left wing is anti-semetic only that some within the left wing umbrella are. As it happens i was a memeber of a left wing party myself. but if you want more links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6270/


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    #67
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So if you're from NI, and if you are a Protestant and you support Israel's existence, you must therefore have an ill intent. Think for a second about how fallacious that is.

    I never said what you seem to think what I am saying.

    Anyway, as I said earlier, considering the people involved, I think my comment is perfectly accurate.


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    #68
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    As i said i (....)t more links

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

    http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6270/

    When somebody starts blaming "Jews", you may cry anti-semite, though the odds are I'll be in before you. Until then, I'd suggest forgetting this kind of nonsense and focusing on the issues.


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    #69
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Nodin wrote: »
    When somebody starts blaming "Jews", you may cry anti-semite, though the odds are I'll be in before you. Until then, I'd suggest forgetting this kind of nonsense and focusing on the issues.

    hardly nonsense when jewish buisness are having anti-isreali graffti painted on them or jewish people are being attacked in the street or jewish graves being vandalised all in the name of being anti-isreali.


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    #70
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Dudess wrote: »
    I'm referring to those who were native to the area prior to colonisation and the influx of settlers - I think you know that too... ;)

    The first settlers in Ireland came from Scotland thousands of years ago. You can see the mountains + hills across the water quite easily on a clear day. It was only natural.

    White man has been in America only in relatively recent times ( Columbus was 1496 as far as I remember ? )


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    #71
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How does supporting Israel's existence constitute a stab at nationalists? There is an Irish Friends of Israel down here in the Republic.

    Under normal circumstances it wouldn't, but because it was created as a reactionary movement to the nationalists who extended solidarity with Palestinians (and rightfully so) - Then it's quite categorically clear that this was created to have a go at the nationalists. These same people try to justify Israel's aggression towards the Palestinians. They are the same loyalist filth who perform Hitler salutes while holding the Israeli flag. Bunch of arse-backwards clowns.


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    #72
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Under normal circumstances it wouldn't, but because it was created as a reactionary movement to the nationalists who extended solidarity with Palestinians (and rightfully so) - Then it's quite categorically clear that this was created to have a go at the nationalists. These same people try to justify Israel's aggression towards the Palestinians. They are the same loyalist filth who perform Hitler salutes while holding the Israeli flag. Bunch of arse-backwards clowns.

    You don't actually know that that is the intention, and even if it was, who says that the Republicans should have the right to have solidarity with the Palestinians and the Unionists shouldn't have the right to have solidarity with Israel? Although, I do think that Unionist attitudes to Israel have been like this for a long time, not just right now.

    Anyhow, as for generalising all Unionists based on a select few, you should really know that that is fallacious by now.

    As for justifying Israel's aggression against Palestinians, couldn't the same be said of the Republicans and Palestinian terror against Israel. Infact IRA operatives even served in Beirut in 1982 with the PLO (read Fisk's Pity the Nation - Lebanon at War. So this could be seen as a lot more than just solidarity of words, they've been involved in it in the past. However, I won't generalise all Republicans based on a few.


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    #73
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    While not excusing those hateful comments, can Israel really play the innocent and deny Zionism has lead directly to this threat from the Arab world?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    It isn't about 'giving Ireland back' its about accepting that the plantation of Ireland was wrong, accepting that most people on this island do not wish to have British influence on our country, which was imposed by force, any longer.

    Simply carving up the country into parts that want to remain British and those who don't will never be a real answer.

    There are parts of the UK where Pakistanis outnumber any other ethnicity. Does that give them the right to declare, say, Bradford as Pakistani and separate from Britain?
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Stay, if you consider Ireland your home. Why do you assume only one culture or people can exist in Ireland?


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    #74
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Svalbard wrote: »
    You're confusing natural migration with invasion.

    The Plantation of Ireland was a planned endeavour to seize the best land in Ireland for British subjects while eradicating native culture.

    I think you'll find that this also happened during the Bronze Age too. The Sandel in Derry is considered to be one of the first landing sites of the "indigenous Irish". Whatever they are... Don't people realise that all people had to come here at one point or another. We're all migrants in the strictest sense of the word.


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    #75
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    junder wrote: »
    hardly nonsense when jewish buisness are having anti-isreali graffti painted on them or jewish people are being attacked in the street or jewish graves being vandalised all in the name of being anti-isreali.

    But nobody has suggested any such thing here, so why, precisely, are you bringing it up....?


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    #76
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    jimmmy wrote: »
    The first settlers in Ireland came from Scotland thousands of years ago. You can see the mountains + hills across the water quite easily on a clear day. It was only natural.

    You're confusing natural migration with invasion.

    The Plantation of Ireland was a planned endeavour to seize the best land in Ireland for British subjects while eradicating native culture.

    Migration has always been a feature of Irelands history; other cultures were assimilated and mixed with the ones present. Centuries after the plantation, however, the descendants of the planters wish to remain completely apart from the other inhabitants of this island.
    They even go so far as to claim there is no such thing as Irish culture to justify their claims.

    Ireland may have been a mix of different cultures and a collection of loosely aligned kingdoms - that did not give Britain the right to impose itself on her.


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    #77
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    As for justifying Israel's aggression against Palestinians, couldn't the same be said of the Republicans and Palestinian terror against Israel. Infact IRA operatives even served in Beirut in 1982 with the PLO (read Fisk's Pity the Nation - Lebanon at War. So this could be seen as a lot more than just solidarity of words, they've been involved in it in the past. However, I won't generalise all Republicans based on a few.

    Hmmmm, I don't really think that supporting the colonised against the coloniser can be compared to the reverse....


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    #78
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nodin wrote: »
    Hmmmm, I don't really think that supporting the colonised against the coloniser can be compared to the reverse....

    So you condone attacks by the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbullah amongst others on Israel?


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    #79
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I think you'll find that this also happened during the Bronze Age too. The Sandel in Derry is considered to be one of the first landing sites of the "indigenous Irish". Whatever they are... Don't people realise that all people had to come here at one point or another. We're all migrants in the strictest sense of the word.

    Absolutely, and we have (for the most part) assimilated and changed what it means to be Irish.
    So why can't the descendants of the planters?

    Partition has driven an unnatural and damaging wedge into Ireland, the likes of which have not been seen before.


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    #80
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    I'm struggling to think of a reason to leave this thread open. It's either going to turn into yet another polarised Northern Ireland row, yet another polarised Israel/Palestine row, or (shudder) both.


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    #81
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Svalbard wrote: »
    Absolutely, and we have (for the most part) assimilated and changed what it means to be Irish.
    So why can't the descendants of the planters?

    Some people decided they felt more affinity with Britain and decided to stay with them of their own free will. Power to them, they are the ones who should decide how they should be ruled. If the demographics change, then it will be the time to reconsider this. I have absolutely no problem with the existence of Northern Ireland, and I would even go as far to say I support their right to be with Britain until there is a clear majority against it.
    Svalbard wrote: »
    Partition has driven an unnatural and damaging wedge into Ireland, the likes of which have not been seen before.

    Please, no nation is "natural". The natural thing to do would be to see the world as the world and not impose borders on it. However since we do live in a world that does this, I think that this is perfectly normal that if there is a sizeable population condensed in a region of a nation that there is a case that they should have self-determination such as in the case of Kosovo, or to defect to another country which they are a part of.


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    #82
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    mrtaylor1981 got decissively pwnd defeated, surely he/she (probably he) knew that he'd get it from all angles posting that kind of thing, be of a troll attempt really :pac:


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    #83
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Some people decided they felt more affinity with Britain and decided to stay with them of their own free will. Power to them, they are the ones who should decide how they should be ruled. If the demographics change, then it will be the time to reconsider this. I have absolutely no problem with the existence of Northern Ireland, and I would even go as far to say I support their right to be with Britain until there is a clear majority against it.



    Please, no nation is "natural". The natural thing to do would be to see the world as the world and not impose borders on it. However since we do live in a world that does this, I think that this is perfectly normal that if there is a sizeable population condensed in a region of a nation that there is a case that they should have self-determination such as in the case of Kosovo, or to defect to another country which they are a part of.

    The expressed will of the people of Ireland was to separate from Britain. Unionists decided to get around this by carving up the country.

    Should we resolve all democratic matters in this way? Simply drawing borders until we have a 'majority'?

    I could draw a border around my house and declare myself Martian.

    Ireland has always been Ireland. Now a fifth is missing.


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    #84
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #85
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Svalbard wrote: »
    The expressed will of the people of Ireland was to separate from Britain. Unionists decided to get around this by carving up the country.

    Should we resolve all democratic matters in this way? Simply drawing borders until we have a 'majority'?

    I could draw a border around my house and declare myself Martian.

    Ireland has always been Ireland. Now a fifth is missing.

    Yes, but a sizeable population dissented clearly, and as such it is only reasonable to be able to accomodate these people as to avoid conflict and tensions. I respect their right to remain a part of Britain if that is indeed what they want. We don't have an automatic claim to a part of an island that doesn't want our effective control over them, it's not reasonable or fair. Kosovo broke away from Serbia because they had a different will to the Serb population yet it was only a part of what was considered to be under Serbian control. Likewise, Northern Ireland had a different will to the rest of the Irish population and as such detracted to British rule instead as they found that more favourable. I consider that the right of the people.

    Imposing rule on an unwilling population certainly isn't the solution to diplomatic issues. Lacking respect for other people isn't a way to be well received either, surely attempting to understand others is preferrable.


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    #86
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So you condone attacks by the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbullah amongst others on Israel?

    Certain of them yes, though more the PFLP. I have major problems with the overtly religous nature of 3 of the organisations you mention. Theres clearly a process of colonisation going on, and as UN sanctions on Israel are blocked by the USA, I see no alternative open to them. This is what happens when people are excluded, unfortunately.


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    #87
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes.

    But the situation in Ireland is not the same. The 'natives' were not largely wiped out.
    If the Native Americans and Aboriginals in modern USA and Australia outnumbered the colonists and wished to rule themselves then absolutely I would agree that they should.
    Should a part of those 2 countries be set aside especially for the descendants of colonists? No. They should respect the will of the majority and try to integrate.

    At least the Australians (not sure about the Americans) apologised for what they did to the indigenous population...


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    #88
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Nodin wrote: »
    Certain of them yes, though more the PFLP. I have major problems with the overtly religous nature of 3 of the organisations you mention. Theres clearly a process of colonisation going on, and as UN sanctions on Israel are blocked by the USA, I see no alternative open to them. This is what happens when people are excluded, unfortunately.

    So you promote the death of innocent Israeli civilians by Palestinians merely for wanting to live in Israel? Or what exactly do you promote?


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    #89
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    Jakkass wrote: »
    So you promote the death of innocent Israeli civilians by Palestinians merely for wanting to live in Israel? Or what exactly do you promote?

    I guess the right of a people to fight for the sovereignty of their state, even if its not recognised by the international community.

    In essence, they're right to wage war.

    It isn't only the US, the UK and Israel who can use their armies to get their own way.


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    #90
    Mad Finn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 366 ✭✭Mad Finn


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    Look at the peace process in Ireland. Is that based on forced expulsion, categorising people according to an analysis of their DNA as to what their distant ancestory might have been or a simplistic "We were here first" nonsensical argument?

    No.

    It is based on common sense, an acceptance that difference is natural but it need not lead to division and a realisation that we're better off getting on together than shooting at each other.

    Of course you'll get a few unionist nut cases who wish they could have replied to every IRA outrage with a helicopter gunship attack on housing estates in Dundalk, just as you get the odd nationalist numbskull who wants to equate the interclan rivalries of the Firbolg and the Tuatha de Danann, or the monarchist antidemocratic cause of Patrick Sarsfield with the notion of universal-suffrage republicanism and civil rights but these are both becoming marginalised figures and thank goodness for that.

    Israel is nowhere near Northern Ireland in terms of sorting out its problems. It puts its faith in its air force rather than its society.

    In a nutshell, if you want to see how to organise an entire society to win a war, you would look to Israel to learn how to do it.

    If you want to see how to win a peace, you would study Israel to learn how NOT to do it. They really haven't a clue.

    Give me Northern Ireland to Israel any day. Northern Ireland can look forward to peace, recent hiccups notwithstanding. Israel only knows how to arm its entire citizenry for war.


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    #91
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    junder wrote: »
    hardly nonsense when jewish buisness are having anti-isreali graffti painted on them or jewish people are being attacked in the street or jewish graves being vandalised all in the name of being anti-isreali.
    Bingo. It's anti-Israeli, not anti-semitic. Yes, the majority of Israelis are Jews, but it's not an attack on the Jewish faith.
    If people spoke out against Apartheid, did that make them anti Christian?


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