Northern Ireland Friends of Israel

The Saint · 31-03-2009 10:51am

Jakkass wrote: »

You should be addressing both evils in this case. If the separation barriers weren't up there would be a lot more death in Israel, both you and I know that if you just compare the figures pre 2002 and now.

I'll just deal with this. As was already said, if the wall was along Israels legal borders then this would be fine. However, the ICJ has ruled where the wall snakes into Palestinian territory, including around East Jerusalem then this is in violation of international law. I think one could legitimately argue that Israel is creating facts on the ground in order to strengthen its bargaining position in any negotiated settlement. Also this wall in the Occupied Territories is being built in violation of the Geneva conventions and affects people who have Geneva convention protection to protect people who do not have Geneva Convention protection or any legal protection under international law.

Soldie · 31-03-2009 11:14am

I often wonder why those who are left-leaning tend to dogmatically support the plight of Palestinians. Not to sound insensitive, but it's not like there's a shortage of conflicts and boundary disputes in the world. I can't help but think it's related to Israel being an ally of America, the so called bastion of capitalism.

Nodin · 31-03-2009 11:27am

Soldie wrote: »

I often wonder why those who are left-leaning tend to dogmatically support the plight of Palestinians. Not to sound insensitive, but it's not like there's a shortage of conflicts and boundary disputes in the world. I can't help but think it's related to Israel being an ally of America, the so called bastion of capitalism.

More to do with the idea that Israel is supposed to be "respectable" and American efforts to make it appear so.

Permabear · 31-03-2009 11:42am

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Kev_ps3 · 31-03-2009 11:43am

Soldie wrote: »

I often wonder why those who are left-leaning tend to dogmatically support the plight of Palestinians. Not to sound insensitive, but it's not like there's a shortage of conflicts and boundary disputes in the world. I can't help but think it's related to Israel being an ally of America, the so called bastion of capitalism.

Well im right-leaning and I support the Palestinians.

Macha · 31-03-2009 11:46am

donegalfella wrote: »

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A swallow does not a summer make.

Quoting one leftist, who happened to have a pretty negative opinion of all religions, (oh, did you forget to mention that?) does not make anti-semitism inherent to left-wing politics.

Boston · 31-03-2009 11:47am

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

The great pity was that the British government did not the hard line with the terrorists like the Israeli's.

Why a great pity, there is now peace in Northern Ireland. Whatever approach the british took, seems to have worked, the same can't be said for the israeli approach.

Nodin · 31-03-2009 11:49am

donegalfella wrote: »

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..conveniently ignoring the contribution of Jews to leftism in Europe over the decades, and indeed the context that Marx was himself Jewish......None of which has much to do with the OP.

lkj · 31-03-2009 11:53am

Jakkass wrote: »

The political structures in Israel, if Palestinians were allowed to run for Knesset seats in Israel, and if the Palestinians were allowed to live anywhere within the State of Israel like their Israeli Arab counterparts the problem would be for the most part alleviated.

could you explain that statement.....
The 'israeli arabs arent allowed to live anywhere in israel/palestine.not forgetting that 2 isreali-arab palestinian parties where banned 2-3 months ago from running for the israeli parliamnent...
you give the impression that israel is a liberal and democratic state.they fail to be democratic by their use of racist laws and apartheid... and so forth

Permabear · 31-03-2009 12:22pm

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The Saint · 31-03-2009 12:28pm

That is one of the most idiotic nonsensical posts I've seen on the subject. It's not even worthy of a serious response.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Nodin · 31-03-2009 12:57pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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And behold, the race to get away from dicussion of the facts is in full swing....

lkj · 31-03-2009 1:21pm

must agree ..to say communists/marxists/leftists and karl marx himself where anti-jewish is ridiculous.yes marx was not a religious jew but he was jewish.
this thread was about israel,not marx,race or religion.

philologos · 31-03-2009 1:25pm

lkj wrote: »

could you explain that statement.....
The 'israeli arabs arent allowed to live anywhere in israel/palestine.not forgetting that 2 isreali-arab palestinian parties where banned 2-3 months ago from running for the israeli parliamnent...
you give the impression that israel is a liberal and democratic state.they fail to be democratic by their use of racist laws and apartheid... and so forth

The statement explains itself. Note the word "if". I'm not discussing what is currently reality but what should be an ideal.

Palestinians should be able to live anywhere they want in Israel, and likewise any Israeli should be able to live anywhere within the Occupied Territories. Knocking down the wall and organising Israel as a state of equals would improve the situation greatly. I for one acknowledge the current Israeli state has issues, but I'm not going to let the Palestinians off the hook either. We need to be honest about both sides.

lkj · 31-03-2009 1:34pm

lkj wrote:

could you explain that statement.....
The 'israeli arabs arent allowed to live anywhere in israel/palestine.not forgetting that 2 isreali-arab palestinian parties where banned 2-3 months ago from running for the israeli parliamnent...
you give the impression that israel is a liberal and democratic state.they fail to be democratic by their use of racist laws and apartheid... and so forth

Jakkass wrote: »

The political structures in Israel, if Palestinians were allowed to run for Knesset seats in Israel, and if the Palestinians were allowed to live anywhere within the State of Israel like their Israeli Arab counterparts the problem would be for the most part alleviated.

you 'implied that israel arabs had equal rights under israeli laws..and that the opalestinians in the westbank and gaza would also be able to enjoy those rights ..
israeli arabs have not equal rights nor can they live anywhere...
and with a more far-right view coming from israelis it could get worse

Permabear · 31-03-2009 1:40pm

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wes · 31-03-2009 1:46pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Israel considers anyone Jewish as long as you have one Jewish grand parent. In fact thousands of Russian Jewish immigrants are actually Christians. So by Israels standards he would qualify.

lkj · 31-03-2009 1:54pm

lkj wrote: »

must agree ..to say communists/marxists/leftists and karl marx himself were anti-jewish is ridiculous.yes marx was not a religious jew but he was jewish.
this thread was about israel,not marx,race or religion.

.

Can'tseeme · 31-03-2009 2:03pm

junder wrote: »

As i said i watched a programme (by the BBC if my memory serves me correct) that looked at how being anti-isreal was masking a anti-semetic strain within the left, i did not make the programme, i did not write the programme i merely watched it, so kindly stop trying to jump down my throat, i merely mentioned it as part of this dicsussion about isreal when you asked for prove i did a very quick inter search and it brought up that link i posted which is itself a left wing site. At no point did i say everybody who is left wing is anti-semetic only that some within the left wing umbrella are. As it happens i was a memeber of a left wing party myself. but if you want more links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/6270/

Lol. I watched that documentary, it was by Kelvin feckin' MacKenzie on channel 4:rolleyes:

Can people stop dragging this into the left being anti-semitic. Anti-semitism is wrong and abhorant. There's people from all walks of life, creeds (including judaism http://jfjfp.com/) and political persuasions absolutely opposed to what the Israeli state has been doing since it's formation.

Permabear · 31-03-2009 4:16pm

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FTA69 · 31-03-2009 4:21pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Perhaps that fact would be more pertinant if she emigrated here, kicked a native family off the land they've been on for thousands of years.

wes · 31-03-2009 4:32pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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The main difference is that the Grand parents in the Israeli example I gave, in most cases, have never set foot there and there ancestral claims is over 2000 years old. Which is pretty crazy imho.

You see Israel see's being Jewish as a racial identity as much as a religous one. There is more information on Israel "Law of Return":

Law of Return 5710-1950

So the 2 examples could not be more different, as I am sure if someone claimed Irish citizenship on the basis of a 2000 year old land claim, they would be laughed at.

**EDIT**
Forgot to add this also includes Jewish converts, who can go to Israel. So the 2000 year old land claim is even more absurd due to this, as it doesn't even apply in all cases. It shows that Zionism is built on a deck of poorly stacked cards and the claims can easily be shown to be nonsense, by referring to Israels own laws.

Nodin · 31-03-2009 8:19pm

FTA69 wrote: »

Perhaps that fact would be more pertinant if she emigrated here, kicked a native family off the land they've been on for thousands of years.

...and cited "Wanderly Wagon" as evidence that its her 'ancestral homeland'.

brianthebard · 31-03-2009 8:53pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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It appears that you have left out a crucial line at the end of that paragraph;

'Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.'

Furthermore your suggestion that social emancipation is in any way comparable to the third reich is deliriously deluded. What exactly, do you imagine social emancipation means? It refers to a society which sees jews as equals, which does not discriminate as was the norm at the time Marx was writing.

Judaism is in this context no different from any other article against religious fundamentalism.

If anyone wants to read the real article, they can see it here; http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/index.htm

Also, you left out this rather important section at the start that sets the scene for the reader;

'By its very nature, the Christian state incapable of emancipating the Jew; but, adds Bauer, by his very nature the Jew cannot be emancipated. So long as the state is Christian and the Jew is Jewish, the one is as incapable of granting emancipation as the other is of receiving it.

The Christian state can behave towards the Jew only in the way characteristic of the Christian state – that is, by granting privileges, by permitting the separation of the Jew from the other subjects, but making him feel the pressure of all the other separate spheres of society, and feel it all the more intensely because he is in religious opposition to the dominant religion. But the Jew, too, can behave towards the state only in a Jewish way – that is, by treating it as something alien to him, by counterposing his imaginary nationality to the real nationality, by counterposing his illusory law to the real law, by deeming himself justified in separating himself from mankind, by abstaining on principle from taking part in the historical movement, by putting his trust in a future which has nothing in common with the future of mankind in general, and by seeing himself as a member of the Jewish people, and the Jewish people as the chosen people.

On what grounds, then, do you Jews want emancipation? On account of your religion? It is the mortal enemy of the state religion. As citizens? In Germany, there are no citizens. As human beings? But you are no more human beings than those to whom you appeal.'

Its very easy to paint someone as anti-Semitic if you quote them out of context. And even easier to make a comparison to Nazism if you ignore what their words mean. Unfortunately for you, it doesn't stick. What Marx is calling for is not the annhilation of Jews, if that were not obvious, but the ending of religious oppression and fundamentalism as a tool of othering sections of society. Basic humanity towards all people in other words.

Sand · 31-03-2009 9:51pm

The first obvious fault with this argument is that you've given the wrong title to the piece you are quoting from. Its actually called "On the Jewish Question". If you can't even get the article right, then what hope have we that you can represent the writer accurately? It appears you haven't, you left out a crucial line at the end of that paragraph;

'Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Judaism, would be the self-emancipation of our time.'

Furthermore your suggestion that social emancipation is in any way comparable to the third reich is deliriously deluded. What exactly, do you imagine social emancipation means? It refers to a society which sees jews as equals, which does not discriminate as was the norm at the time Marx was writing.

Judaism is in this context no different from any other article against religious fundamentalism.

If anyone wants to read the real article, they can see it here; http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx...tion/index.htm

I deeply admire the reaching in this post. Keep it up.

brianthebard · 31-03-2009 9:58pm

Stunning rebuttal.

paulaa · 31-03-2009 11:55pm

Soldie wrote: »

I often wonder why those who are left-leaning tend to dogmatically support the plight of Palestinians. Not to sound insensitive, but it's not like there's a shortage of conflicts and boundary disputes in the world. I can't help but think it's related to Israel being an ally of America, the so called bastion of capitalism.

Nonsense!! It's to do with Israel's land theft, refusing to define her borders, mass murder, appalling Human Rights record and occupation to name but a few things. It's not just "left-leaning" people who are sickened by the fact that Israel has been carrying out an ethnic cleansing policy against the indigenous people of Palestine for over 60 years and the US and UK has constantly shielded them from censure in the UN.

It has nothing to do with capitalism and thankfully things are starting to change.
After the latest slaughter in Gaza many countries, who have previously supported Israel have been speaking out against her.
The EU have suspended talks with Israel on preferential trade agreements. The UK have backtracked on a proposal, pushed by Israel, to change their laws on preventing war crimes charges against IDF.
The US is talking to Iran, much to the disgust of Israel, who have been doing their level best to drag the US into another pointless war against Iran.
Things are not looking good for Israel and it's her own fault for thumbing her nose at the world community for so long.

As to your point about other conflicts, how do you know what else people discuss ? This is a thread about Israel and NI not Darfur or anywhere else.

philologos · 01-04-2009 12:03am

brianthebard wrote: »

'By its very nature, the Christian state incapable of emancipating the Jew; but, adds Bauer, by his very nature the Jew cannot be emancipated. So long as the state is Christian and the Jew is Jewish, the one is as incapable of granting emancipation as the other is of receiving it.'

A pretty absurd assumption. Jesus was Jewish, the Apostles were Jewish. It was through Israel that Christianity spread to the world. If anything the Christians have a lot to thank the Jews for receiving their Scriptures and the revelation through Christ that happened amongst them. I've never understood Christian anti-Semitism or how it could be even based on Christianity.

paulaa · 01-04-2009 12:40am

Jakkass wrote: »

A pretty absurd assumption. Jesus was Jewish, the Apostles were Jewish. It was through Israel that Christianity spread to the world. If anything the Christians have a lot to thank the Jews for receiving their Scriptures and the revelation through Christ that happened amongst them. I've never understood Christian anti-Semitism or how it could be even based on Christianity.

Are you confusing "anti-semitism" with anti-Zionist policy ?

IRISH RAIL · 01-04-2009 4:04am

I have to step in now after the thread has been derailed worse than the buttevant crash
Israel has f@ck all to do with northern Ireland
Likewise Ireland has f@ck all to do with palestine
Republicans have a lot more in common with Israel then they would like to believe
and Ive seen those pictures of rangers fans and "unionists" if you will giving nazi salutes.
You ask the majority of Irish people what they would want with northern Ireland they will tell you to cut it off and push it to the sea a similar answer would be got from people in mainland England.

each country is entitled to have its supporters which it does

why is there always a few who try to shove there point down everyone elses necks and ruin what could have been a perfectly good thread about a support group for Israel without bringing up right or wrong or whos dna was what or who supports terrorism against Israel the most.

Northern Ireland Friends of Israel

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