what exactly does a 10% cut in standard of living mean?

bobbbb

otwb wrote: »

Hmmm...and the fact that people were lying on mortgage application forms had nothing to do with it (adding bonus's into basic income, renting rooms that they didn't intend to rent....). 100% and higher mortgages were taken out...by people who wanted them, not by people who were forced to buy houses by men with large sticks. The holiday home in Bulgaria was a 'must have' as were the two and three holidays per year and the new car.

Everyone is to blame for the mess that we are in. The bankers practised good business and made money because we demanded higher credit levels. They should have watched their backs and slowed up on lending, but we, the public, got what we demanded, and not what was forced upon us.

We all shouldnt have taken those raises and bonuses at work. Or all those reductions in taxes when they were given. The whole country got used to a much higher standard of living and so prices increased.

Those on minimum wage should have said 'No, dont increase the minimum wage'.

NOBODY can point the finger at anyone else here.

Liam Byrne

Zynks wrote: »

Do you go to your local off-license and give them stick every time you have a hangover?

Well, if you get very drunk in a pub and the barman still serves you another, he can be held liable. Legally he's obliged to say "no".

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

So you propose that the government should borrow money, to be repaid by all taxpayers, and give it to particular individuals to pay off their loans.

At the moment, they're doing this to give money to the banks, who then go on to pay their heads massive bonuses which wouldn't be available if we hadn't bailed them out. Do you prefer that scenario to one where ordinary people get something back ?

My point is that rather than simply accepting this and accepting developer defaulters and bad debts, that the banks should reclaim the developers land (just as they would reclaim stuff from any of us if we couldn't pay) and give it to the Government in return; let the Government then provide recreation areas, etc, to improve the standard of living of EVERYONE.

At the moment, we're paying anyway; let's demand something in return from those who helped land us in this mess.

Yes, some people were idiotic in not saying no....a bank offered me enough to do more to the house, and I turned them down because I would have HAD to rent out a room and maybe even hung myself, but I'm still being screwed by extra taxes and levies and cutbacks, despite being reasonably prudent. Yes, I've a bank loan, but it's half what the bank were happy to offer me...

FFS, whatever about saying that people lied on applications, the financial regulator and the Ministers didn't even read the frigging reports! No-one lied in those, but no-one did their job and read them. Why aren't those people fired ? No, they get bonuses, Fianna Fail style! :mad:

So basically what I'm saying is that if there's a 35% drop in "disposable" income, there should be something done to improve living standards, even if it were non-financial......FF rezoned land without infrastructure planning, developers bought it and built overpriced houses on it, banks ensured those got sold.....

We're already paying to prop up the banks and deserve something back, that's all.

Akrasia

otwb wrote: »

Everyone is to blame for the mess that we are in.

Bollox. I have been warning people about the housing market for years, I don't own a house or have excessive debt, how am I responsible for the mess?

A lot of people here were accusing me of being a loon and a 'doom monger' for pointing out what has since become the bleedin obvious (that the property market was vastly over inflated and would have to come crashing down)

The people who say "everyone is responsible" are only saying that because they are trying to deflect responsibility away from their own greed and stupidity.

P. Breathnach

Akrasia wrote: »

Bollox. I have been warning people about the housing market for years, I don't own a house or have excessive debt, how am I responsible for the mess?

A lot of people here were accusing me of being a loon and a 'doom monger' for pointing out what has since become the bleedin obvious (that the property market was vastly over inflated and would have to come crashing down)

The people who say "everyone is responsible" are only saying that because they are trying to deflect responsibility away from their own greed and stupidity.

So everybody else is to blame for the mess that we are in.

thebman

Akrasia wrote: »

Bollox. I have been warning people about the housing market for years, I don't own a house or have excessive debt, how am I responsible for the mess?

A lot of people here were accusing me of being a loon and a 'doom monger' for pointing out what has since become the bleedin obvious (that the property market was vastly over inflated and would have to come crashing down)

The people who say "everyone is responsible" are only saying that because they are trying to deflect responsibility away from their own greed and stupidity.

I agree with this somewhat although it might be a bit over the top as the majority of people did get us into this mess.

Personally I've been telling my family to feck off and that I don't have the money to buy a house and that the market is inflated since I left college. I was even offered the deposit for one by my mother to help get me on the ladder and I had to tell her that I wasn't going to accept it.

I kept being told the market was going to go higher and I wouldn't be able to afford a house soon. I just replied that wasn't the case and that nobody my age could afford a house and that a lot them buying a house were getting deposits from their parents and that it simply wasn't sustainable.

I begged my mother not to buy another house as an investment for herself just before the market crashed. She didn't and was just saying the other day that thank god she didn't.

It seemed most people a little over my age group had become brainwashed that this was going to go on forever, I guess because it had happened for so long. It was kind of obvious it was just a massive pyramid scheme though. There was a legitimate housing boom (from the baby boom) in the country and then the government and the construction lobby groups worked to create a false market instead of the government developing a proper economy based on being competitive in the international markets.

They have done serious damage to this country and must be punished for their recklessness and for not running the country in the interests of the country.

Akrasia

P. Breathnach wrote: »

So everybody else is to blame for the mess that we are in.

no, there are a lot of people who were prudent during the last few years, and a lot of people who were greedy and short sighted. The people who I blame the most are those who were the most vocal in trying to recruit others to their greed and stupidity through arrogant "how dare you talk down the economy" arguments.

jimmmy

Akrasia wrote: »

The people who I blame the most are those who were the most vocal in trying to recruit others to their greed and stupidity through arrogant "how dare you talk down the economy" arguments.

Did not Bertie Ahern in Letterkenny only last year ( or the year before ) say something about those who tried to talk down the economy should commit suicide ?

Liam Byrne

jimmmy wrote: »

Did not Bertie Ahern in Letterkenny only last year ( or the year before ) say something about those who tried to talk down the economy should commit suicide ?

Yup, ironically the same Bertie who should know what it's like not to be able to afford a house...

And the same guy who's swanning around the world giving talks while we're paying him 100K.

And the same guy who flew out to tonight's match @ the weekend (another 3 days off "work" as a guest of the FAI.......how do you quantify a 10% drop in standards when something's given to you by cronism - for free ?

EDIT : Actually, great thought here; if the plane only flew 90% of the way there, would it land in the sea and rid us of this idiot ?

But yes, we're all guilty - even those of us who were prudent; we're thick as two short planks for putting up with all this "do as I say while I do what I like" crap. :mad:

bobbbb

Akrasia wrote: »

Bollox. I have been warning people about the housing market for years, I don't own a house or have excessive debt, how am I responsible for the mess?

A lot of people here were accusing me of being a loon and a 'doom monger' for pointing out what has since become the bleedin obvious (that the property market was vastly over inflated and would have to come crashing down)

The people who say "everyone is responsible" are only saying that because they are trying to deflect responsibility away from their own greed and stupidity.

Bollox to that too.
You are as responsible as anyone else. Just because someone didnt buy a house or get themselves into debt doesnt absolve them of anything.
Im sure you quite happily took any tax credits you could get and earned as much money as you could.
Did you ever get a taxi, or buy a pint? What about food and clothes. If you bought any of his you fueled the runaway costs in our economy.
All of us in our own ways contributed.

Not having a go at you or anything but dont dare try and absolve yourself of any responsibility just because you didnt buy a house or get a loan. And dont be picking on people who bought houses and got loans were doing what is natural in any economy. They spend the money they have and the borrow as much as they are allowed to. They did nothing wrong at the time.

I have no debts, havent bought a house ... yet.
Im very aware that i did my part in throwing fuel on the fire and am now doing my part in the opposite prolem by starving the fire of oxygen too by saving as much as i can.

NewDubliner

bobbbb wrote: »

Did you ever get a taxi, or buy a pint? What about food and clothes. If you bought any of his you fueled the runaway costs in our economy. All of us in our own ways contributed.

OK, here's what we must do: spend as little as possible & drive down prices.

nice_guy80

well, i'll just cut down the amount of socialising i do

or buy less clothes

or drive round less at the weekend to save petrol

or cook and eat at home more

(no way i'm doing all that)

Hagar

Liam Byrne wrote: »

But yes, we're all guilty - even those of us who were prudent; we're thick as two short planks for putting up with all this "do as I say while I do what I like" crap. :mad:

Tell us how to stop it and we'll do it now.
I can see no way to stop the people in power in Ireland from doing what they do best - fncking us over.

NewDubliner

nice_guy80 wrote: »

(no way i'm doing all that)

Instead of 'buy nothing day, we need 'buy nothing months'. If we can do it for a while, it might get the message across to all the traders who are still charging 'celtic tiger' prices.

I was in the city centre today, they're living in the past.

Liam Byrne

Hagar wrote: »

Tell us how to stop it and we'll do it now.
I can see no way to stop the people in power in Ireland from doing what they do best - fncking us over.

Fair point, Hagar, and that's what I was getting at.

Some (unfortunately enough) people fell hook, line and sinker for the Fianna Fail "you can trust us" approach to the last election.

Maybe the damage was done at that stage, given the waste and mismanagement up to then, and maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.....but the fact is that FF do what they do best : dangle enough carrots to the masses to lure them in, doing just enough to stay in power for their own gain, and to hell with the general public.

And until enough of the public cop that and vote accordingly, we're screwed.

Who'd replace them ? Difficult to tell. FG ain't tarnished to the same degree with the scandals, cronyism and corruption, but they're not the most imaginative either.

If Eamonn Gilmore can tap into the ACTUAL "labour" aspect - where ordinary working people on average wages get the gains, and not corrupt fat-cats and millionaires - then maybe there's a way out that will see a better, more equitable Ireland at some stage in the future.

Greed did indeed lead the way - worldwide......winning €1 million in the Lotto wasn't enough for people; the only way lots of people joined in was when it went to crazy, obscene money, or in the Euromillions....

So my first proposal for the "new Ireland" is that the National Lottery somehow split the top prize between 10 people; improve 10 people's / families lives instead of giving one person 10 million that they would never spend.

I mean, €500,000 is plenty for ANYONE to win.

P. Breathnach

nice_guy80 wrote: »

well, i'll just cut down the amount of socialising i do

or buy less clothes

or drive round less at the weekend to save petrol

or cook and eat at home more

(no way i'm doing all that)

Why not? Unless you dress as I do, you have listed areas where lots of people could cut down and still live comfortably.

thebman

bobbbb wrote: »

Bollox to that too.
You are as responsible as anyone else. Just because someone didnt buy a house or get themselves into debt doesnt absolve them of anything.
Im sure you quite happily took any tax credits you could get and earned as much money as you could.
Did you ever get a taxi, or buy a pint? What about food and clothes. If you bought any of his you fueled the runaway costs in our economy.
All of us in our own ways contributed.

I don't buy your argument.

What should people do not eat, wear no clothes? If everyone else in the economy has driven up costs, all you can do is buy from the cheapest place available. You can't force shops to charge you less, you can't stop the government increasing tax credits. Your listing factors outside peoples control and saying that is how they contributed.

All you could do to effect the above is essentially not vote FF and even then most of the other parties had similar policies. There is nothing you could do about those factors, all you can do is live debt free, modestly and save the rest and hope it sees through the inevitable bad times.

NewDubliner

thebman wrote: »

What should people do not eat, wear no clothes? .

Only buy essentials. Cancel cable & satellite subs. Get rid of the landline. Wait for the house and car market to bottom out. Look for reasonably priced Irish products. Stop buying Chinese manufactured stuff.

Akrasia

bobbbb wrote: »

Bollox to that too.
You are as responsible as anyone else. Just because someone didnt buy a house or get themselves into debt doesnt absolve them of anything.
Im sure you quite happily took any tax credits you could get and earned as much money as you could.
Did you ever get a taxi, or buy a pint? What about food and clothes. If you bought any of his you fueled the runaway costs in our economy.
All of us in our own ways contributed.

you're taking the piss right?

so the homeless person who bought a cup of tea in Bewleys is responsible for the collapse of the irish economy?

You're talking utter ****e. If I buy bread and milk from my local shop i'm complicit in the property/banking binge of the last decade? I suppose it;s as coherent as anything FF have come up with recenty

Not having a go at you or anything but dont dare try and absolve yourself of any responsibility just because you didnt buy a house or get a loan. And dont be picking on people who bought houses and got loans were doing what is natural in any economy. They spend the money they have and the borrow as much as they are allowed to. They did nothing wrong at the time.

So its natural to borrow as much as you're allowed??????? what are you talking about? So if you get a credit card with a 10k limit, your natural response is to borrow 10k asap?
Buying houses and taking out loans is not 'natural'. How could anyone say that. Its a decision that people make, and in many cases, a very bad decision. And now people like you are trying to pretend like you are not responsible for those decisions, that you were only following 'natural instincts' and everyone else is to blame, especially the people who tried to warn you not to

I have no debts, havent bought a house ... yet.
Im very aware that i did my part in throwing fuel on the fire and am now doing my part in the opposite prolem by starving the fire of oxygen too by saving as much as i can.

how did you fuel the economy? why do you feel so determined to accept responsibility for the destruction other people have caused through reckless greed and borrowing,

mikemac

NewDubliner wrote: »

Only buy essentials. Cancel cable & satellite subs. Get rid of the landline. Wait for the house and car market to bottom out. Look for reasonably priced Irish products. Stop buying Chinese manufactured stuff.

To save money, then buying cheap imports over Irish goods is the first thing you do.
And if Irish companies can't compete, their loss.
Sure aren't your posts telling us to spend as little as possible?

For example, I spend hundreds on DVDs but they aren't bought here. I'd happily buy in an Irish store and pay my 21.5% VAT if they could or would compete but they won't or can't so it's online from a foreign country all the way until they do.

Akrasia

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Why not? Unless you dress as I do, you have listed areas where lots of people could cut down and still live comfortably.

in other words, lots of people are still too well paid and can afford to cut back, but this statement by cowen is universal, 10% less for all.

h
well, i'll just cut down the amount of socialising i do

Don't spend money socialising other than the obligatory unavoidable events, bdays, christenings, weddings, christmas that we all have to participate in on penalty of social ostracism

or buy less clothes

Not possible. I wore shoes that were 2 sizes too small for me at work for 6 months because I couldn't afford to buy my own. I don't have a single pair of pants that can be reasonably described as 'good' because my budget is so tight I have to spend my clothes budget on luxuries like food and utilities instead.

or drive round less at the weekend to save petrol

this is something that is really hard to accept. I work hard, my girlfriend works hard, at the weekend we have no money, she wants to go for a drive, I don't want to because it costs 20 quid everytime the car pulls out of the driveway. I go for the drive anyway because I love her and what kind of life is it to spend our time together sitting on the couch saving money....

or cook and eat at home more

I have a voucher for a restaurant in Limerick that I haven't used because I can't afford the petrol to get there and back. The last time I ate 'out' was at a sunday lunch carvery when we were away for the day. we cook at home all the time, and we certainly know how to stretch a bag of spuds.

Where do we save our 10%? We have no savings, no extravagant outgoings, we shop around whenever possible. We are penniless at the end of a normal month, this does not include provisions for 'extras' like medical/dental costs.

The 'sacrifices' we are supposed to make can not be compared with others who are simply going to have less surplus wealth to squirrel away to invest in the 'upturn'

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

jimmmy

NewDubliner wrote: »

Instead of 'buy nothing day, we need 'buy nothing months'. If we can do it for a while, it might get the message across to all the traders who are still charging 'celtic tiger' prices.

I was in the city centre today, they're living in the past.

Unfortunately we are living in a high wage economy, with high vat rates. Most of the shopkeepers and shopworkers I know make well below the average industrial wage, and certainly less that the wages of those whom they pay their taxes to. If people boycott Irish shops, more will close, there is nothing more certain than that.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

If people boycott Irish shops, more will close, there is nothing more certain than that.

Not boycott Irish shops, nobody said that. Just don't buy foreign goods and products that we can do without.

BTW how many of the shop workers are tax-exempt?