Jenson Button...Why?

Bernard Black

Granted he won the first race of the season yesterday and perhaps will end up winning the championship because of his car but why has this journeyman of F1 been hyped up so much in the past?Surely the Christiano Ronaldo of F1. This is a guy who was the fourth highest paid driver last year yet has only won two races since 2000(including yesterday)Sure you can blame the car for his previous poor performances eventhough he was at williams and renault in the past!He surely underachieved!It was clear to see even Fernando Alonso was destined for greatness racing for Minardi of all teams but has this ever been the case with Button?This man has probably received more hype than fellow countryman and actual world champion Lewis Hamilton. However this could be the year he finally lives up to his press,with the car making everyone elses look like nissan micras surely even Jenson Button cant bottle this one?

Running Bing

Bernard Black wrote: »

Granted he won the first race of the season yesterday and perhaps will end up winning the championship because of his car but why has this journeyman of F1 been hyped up so much in the past?Surely the Christiano Ronaldo of F1.

Thats wrong on so many levels I dont even know where to start.

This is a guy who was the fourth highest paid driver last year yet has only won two races since 2000(including yesterday)Sure you can blame the car for his previous poor performances eventhough he was at williams and renault in the past!He surely underachieved!

Yeah he underachieved then because he was a mediocre driver but he is achieving now because of the car:rolleyes:

This man has probably received more hype than fellow countryman and actual world champion Lewis Hamilton.

No he has'nt. You watch F1 on a British broadcaster. Prior to Hamilton he was probably GB's best chance of having a winning driver so the channel talked about him. If you want to see hype watch any boxing match on RTE....Its only natural broadcasters will pander to the dominant audience and in ITV's case that was an English audience.

However this could be the year he finally lives up to his press,with the car making everyone elses look like nissan micras surely even Jenson Button cant bottle this one?

Yep all the car:rolleyes:


Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton all only won because of the car too though correct? I mean once Renault went downhill Alonso stopped winning races.

Tbh I dont know why I even bothered replying to this. You would've been quicker just posting "I dislike Jenson Button" and leaving it at that.

Dcully

Give the guy a break.
Any car he drove in the past were a work in progress.
Now that hes in a good car and has won the first race of the season you come out sneering the guy?
Open your eyes,the guy is a talented driver and one of the smoothest racers on the grid.
Yesterday he kept a cool head and never put a wheel wrong in the whole race despite the pressure he was under.

The tone of your post suggests one just has to sit in the cockpit of the car to win :rolleyes:

Machman

Button is the real deal. Maybe not in the top 3/4 drivers on the grid, but bloody good nonetheless. He drove Honda pigtrucks for the last couple of years, and hardly said a bad work about his team, only encouraged them to do better. It's hard to like any British drivers due to the famed Brit press, but Jenson Button deserved this win, and I hope he continues this form as it will shake things up and have a few more vying for wins.

amacachi

I've been hoping at the start of the last few seasons that Button would finally have a good car under him and I'm glad he now does. Say what ya like but he's had little to no experience of leading Formula 1 races for extended periods of time and yet he led from lights to flag yesterday, an immaculate drive.

I honestly think in equal cars he would be at the top with Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonnen and Vettel.

jusk

Babybing wrote: »

You would've been quicker just posting "I dislike Jenson Button" and leaving it at that.

Agreed.

The Christiano Ronaldo comparison makes no sense, on any level.

I don't think Button is over-hyped. He's a solid, unspectacular, above average F1 driver in my opinion, capable of doing very well in the right car.

thegoth

I used to feel like you OP, but I have gained alot of respect for Button over the last few years. Granted he isn't of the same level as Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel, who I believe are the top 3 in F1 at the moment, but neither is he a sloutch. He has performed well against Rubens, who has beaten all his teammates except Schmuacher.

Just one comment regarding this "Schumacher, Raikkonen, Alonso, Hamilton all only won because of the car too though correct? I mean once Renault went downhill Alonso stopped winning races."

Schmuacher and Alonso have also won world championships in cars that were not the best in the field. I know you might say Raikkonen did, but his win was more like Lewis throwing it away.

Jensen is a faster driver than some previous world champions and slower than others.

Things could be alot worse. It could be Scott Speed in the Brawn !!! Imagine having to listen to that for a year !!!

amacachi

thegoth wrote: »

Schmuacher and Alonso have also won world championships in cars that were not the best in the field. I know you might say Raikkonen did, but his win was more like Lewis throwing it away.

Bull****. By that logic any championship that was a close finish was "thrown away" by the driver or drivers who didn't win it.

smooch71

amacachi wrote: »

Bull****. By that logic any championship that was a close finish was "thrown away" by the driver or drivers who didn't win it.

Quite true.

If you're to believe that logic then Massa should be the 2008 champion. It just doesn't work that way.

Dcully

thegoth wrote: »

Schmuacher and Alonso have also won world championships in cars that were not the best in the field. I know you might say Raikkonen did, but his win was more like Lewis throwing it away.

Putting it mildly this is simply so not true.

RayM

I like Jenson Button. At the start of his career, I found him a bit over-hyped and irritating in interviews (not unlike Hamilton), but his years in the wilderness have helped turn him into a much stronger character. Hopefully, Hamilton will similarly learn a bit of humility this year.

His driving style is always nice to watch, and very reminiscent of Damon Hill, so if he wins the Championship - even if it is in the best car - I'll not be complaining.

dsmythy

If you want to judge a driver, compare his results with his team-mates. Works most of the time.

thegoth

"Schmuacher and Alonso have also won world championships in cars that were not the best in the field. I know you might say Raikkonen did, but his win was more like Lewis throwing it away."

Let me explain in detail what I mean

With 2 races to go, Lewis was leading the world championship in the best car by 12 points. All he needed was 2 good points scoring places and the championship was his. He manages to loose the championship by taking silly risks. It was Lewis's and McLarens mistake i.e silly tyre choices that allowed Kimi the world title. That's just a fact, and I'm NOT a Lewis fan. I am a fan of Kimi's, but facts are facts.

amacachi

thegoth wrote: »

"Schmuacher and Alonso have also won world championships in cars that were not the best in the field. I know you might say Raikkonen did, but his win was more like Lewis throwing it away."

Let me explain in detail what I mean

With 2 races to go, Lewis was leading the world championship in the best car by 12 points. All he needed was 2 good points scoring places and the championship was his. He manages to loose the championship by taking silly risks. It was Lewis's and McLarens mistake i.e silly tyre choices that allowed Kimi the world title. That's just a fact, and I'm NOT a Lewis fan. I am a fan of Kimi's, but facts are facts.

Raikkonnen was still the best driver and deserving winner that year When the results happen are irrelevant. With that logic Massa threw last year's title away, all he needed was a decent finish in Japan or Singapore and he'd've won the title

vectra

thegoth wrote: »

Things could be alot worse. It could be Scott Speed in the Brawn !!! Imagine having to listen to that for a year !!!

You think that would be bad
Could you imagine if Hamilton had landed that seat this yeat.
GOD HELP US...!!! :eek:

thegoth

"With that logic Massa threw last year's title away, all he needed was a decent finish in Japan or Singapore and he'd've won the title"

No. It is not a fair comparsion. Last year Massa drove a similar race as Kimi the year before. The only difference was Kimi was luckier. Things in the race went his way, i.e Lewis had car trouble. In 2008, Lewis had trouble, but he managed to just get away with it. My point is that both Kimi and Massa both drove the races in 2007 and 2008 very well, yet things outside their control in those races decided the championship, i.e in 2007 Lewis had gear box problems that cost him the race, in 2008 Lewis had the wrong tyre and had the rain held off for 20 more seconds, Massa was world champion

This is what I mean when I say that Kimi winning the title is 2007 was really more of Lewis throwing it away with a silly tyre choice in the second last race of the year

Famous45

Sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder.

I've backed him at 66/1 to win the F1 Drivers Championship - he's an awesome driver.

thegoth

Are you talking about me with a chip on my shoulder ? I can assure you I don't. I think that Kimi is a legend. F1 needs more guys like him

I have backed Button and Rubens at 20-1 and 33-1 :-)

To be clear. I am a fan on Kimi's. I'm not a Lewis fan.

"Things could be alot worse. It could be Scott Speed in the Brawn !!! Imagine having to listen to that for a year !!!"

No, sorry. I still think Speed would be worse !!!

Alun

RayM wrote: »

His driving style is always nice to watch, and very reminiscent of Damon Hill, so if he wins the Championship - even if it is in the best car - I'll not be complaining.

I thought the same thing ... a very smooth driving style just like Hill. I seem to remember one of the commentators on Saturday (or maybe it was on the red-button coverage after the event) calling it the "Jackie Stewart" style of formula one driving.

Oblomov

Jensen Button arrived on the F1 scene with an absolute avalanche of publicity, and with the same lack of panache achieved nothing... the scandal of who stays where, the influence of Bernie Ecclestone, the bad publicity over the Williams farrago all contributed to a playboy image of somebody believing their own publicity.

The same arrogance that people are decrying Hamilton for was there in bucket loads... and unfortunately his driving suffered.... one good result in the rain, a almost constant falling further behind from an average grid position, again, creating more damage to the perceived image of Jensen Button.

A change of agent with more control over his public speaking and image has assisted in moving away from the brash newcomer to the seasoned race driver.

Hopefully, he can go on the justify the earlier PR and not squander the opportunity.

Running Bing

Oblomov wrote: »

Jensen Button arrived on the F1 scene with an absolute avalanche of publicity, and with the same lack of panache achieved nothing... the scandal of who stays where, the influence of Bernie Ecclestone, the bad publicity over the Williams farrago all contributed to a playboy image of somebody believing their own publicity.

The same arrogance that people are decrying Hamilton for was there in bucket loads... and unfortunately his driving suffered.... one good result in the rain, a almost constant falling further behind from an average grid position, again, creating more damage to the perceived image of Jensen Button.

A change of agent with more control over his public speaking and image has assisted in moving away from the brash newcomer to the seasoned race driver.

Hopefully, he can go on the justify the earlier PR and not squander the opportunity.

I think your right about the public image thing. I think in the earlier days he came across as the quintessential F1 playboy, who didnt really care about driving and was more interested in living the lifestyle and looking after his hair than putting in the hours.


I think its clear to most F1 fans now that this is actually completely not true....quite the opposite I think he is a very committed driver, who has really worked hard at Honda and I dont think he is even much bothered with the glamour and lifestyle of the sport (no celebrity friends or pop star girlfriend;)).

shamwari

In 1999, the Prost GP team gave Button a test in their car and after his first run in an unfamiliar car, his times matched those of Jean Alesi. No mean feat for a first timer! Afterwards, Alain Prost commented that on the basis of that test, he felt that "Button is something very special" Indeed Prost is supposed to have commented to Button that if he [Button] was serious about being competitive in F1 then he was better off looking elsewhere for a drive than Prost GP. IIRC button finished 6th in his first race for Williams BMW in 2000.

Personally I don't mind Button. He thankfully lacks the in-your-face smarminess of the current world champion, and my only fear is that the British media start waxing lyrical about him in the same nauseating way they do about Hamilton.

eoinbn

I don't think he has underachieved but he is also overrated mainly because he is english. He is a good driver, nothing more. He is more in the Damon Hill, Kimi Raikkonen moled than the Schumacher, Alonso, Hamilton one where he can win a title if it's handed to him but isn't really capable of going out and winning it for himself.
If the other teams close up on Brawn then he will struggle as the guy isn't a racer.

amacachi

How did Hamilton win the title while Raikkonnen had it handed to him? Sounds like BS to me.

Slutmonkey57b

Jenson Button and the grand massive U-Turn of opinion in the minds of fans and media following the last GP is evidence of an inherited fallacy in everyone's minds:

The idea that there are bad drivers in F1. "Bad" drivers simply can't control an F1 car - you can see that whenever a seat-buyer has made his way into a small team and ended up in the wall every other race. It's not a case of gifted genius at the front, hapless monkeys at the back. Even the worst of F1 drivers is still bloody good. Drivers like Damon Hill who were written off as hopeless journeymen can be World Champion.

What this proof of is that success is determined in F1 by the following weighted scale
1: Team Principal (See Ross Brawn)
2: Money
3: Car
4: Luck
5: Driver

People don't like to admit it, but it's true. F1 is a numbers game.

Running Bing

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Jenson Button and the grand massive U-Turn of opinion in the minds of fans and media following the last GP is evidence of an inherited fallacy in everyone's minds:

The idea that there are bad drivers in F1. "Bad" drivers simply can't control an F1 car - you can see that whenever a seat-buyer has made his way into a small team and ended up in the wall every other race. It's not a case of gifted genius at the front, hapless monkeys at the back. Even the worst of F1 drivers is still bloody good. Drivers like Damon Hill who were written off as hopeless journeymen can be World Champion.

What this proof of is that success is determined in F1 by the following weighted scale
1: Team Principal (See Ross Brawn)
2: Money
3: Car
4: Luck
5: Driver

People don't like to admit it, but it's true. F1 is a numbers game.

I suppose its not that much different to other sports. I mean there are no bad footballers in the premier league and even a pretty mediocre player like John O'Shea (lets not debate it, just an opinion and there are plenty of other examples) can play for a great team and win things.

Of course like football, if your not a very accomplished (or at least a very promising) driver in the first place its going to be difficult to race for a top team.

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

What this proof of is that success is determined in F1 by the following weighted scale
1: Team Principal (See Ross Brawn)
2: Money
3: Car
4: Luck
5: Driver

People don't like to admit it, but it's true. F1 is a numbers game.

i would have said

1. car
2. driver
3. team
4. money
5. luck

riemann

amacachi wrote: »

Bull****. By that logic any championship that was a close finish was "thrown away" by the driver or drivers who didn't win it.

I'm sorry so halminton didn't throw it away?

Actually your right he pressed it away:

amacachi

My point was that Hamilton's mistake happened to be in the last race. Massa/Ferrari's last year happened to be in Singapore.

riemann

shamwari wrote: »

Personally I don't mind Button. He thankfully lacks the in-your-face smarminess of the current world champion, and my only fear is that the British media start waxing lyrical about him in the same nauseating way they do about Hamilton.

Waaay to late dude.

I believe plans are already underway for a statue....;)

riemann

amacachi wrote: »

My point was that Hamilton's mistake happened to be in the last race. Massa/Ferrari's last year happened to be in Singapore.

Dont worry dude i'm on your side raikkonen deserveed to win it and it was all the more sweet for me that he got it thanks to an fatal error from hamster.

Hell, he nearly ~loved~ it up last year as well.

amacachi

riemann wrote: »

Dont worry dude i'm on your side raikkonen deserveed to win it and it was all the more sweet for me that he got it thanks to an fatal error from hamster.

Hell, he nearly ~loved~ it up last year as well.

Aye, but last year he got the most points and hence deserved to win. I don't mind people saying that he threw it away in 2007, unfortunately it implies that Kimi lucked into it, which isn't true.

riemann

amacachi wrote: »

unfortunately it implies that Kimi lucked into it, which isn't true.

Far from it

Slutmonkey57b

EvilMonkey wrote: »

i would have said

1. car
2. driver
3. team
4. money
5. luck

As the demise of all the "small" teams in F1 lie Jordan proved, No Money, No Progress, No Car.
As the rise of Button has proved, a Driver is a nobody without a good Car.
As Ross Brawn proves by moving Benetton-Ferrari-Brawn, you don't get Car or Money without Team Principal (or Head Engineer).
As the end of multiple world championships shows, Luck trumps all at the vital moment (ask Mansell).

The only time Drivers really come into play is when you have a really incredible driver dealing with adverse conditions (Schumacher driving in the rain), or when they're in a position to "influence" the result (Schumacher driving people off the road).

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

As the demise of all the "small" teams in F1 lie Jordan proved, No Money, No Progress, No Car.

True but look at Honda, Toyota throwing money at the car.

As the rise of Button has proved, a Driver is a nobody without a good Car.

Agreed good driver and good car combo needs to come along together.

As Ross Brawn proves by moving Benetton-Ferrari-Brawn, you don't get Car or Money without Team Principal (or Head Engineer).

Yes but i would include this with car. You don't get a good car without a good designer/engineer

As the end of multiple world championships shows, Luck trumps all at the vital moment (ask Mansell).

You need to be in a position to take advantage of luck, ask Hamilton.

The only time Drivers really come into play is when you have a really incredible driver dealing with adverse conditions (Schumacher driving in the rain), or when they're in a position to "influence" the result (Schumacher driving people off the road).

I don't think a bad driver(relatively speaking) has won a world driver championship recently.

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

True but look at Honda, Toyota throwing money at the car.

Most of the money-throwing in both cases was for this year's car, which is why both teams were poor last year compared to excellent this year.

Firewalkwithme

amacachi wrote: »

Most of the money-throwing in both cases was for this year's car, which is why both teams were poor last year compared to excellent this year.

I have to laugh whenever that Honda ad is on TV these days and they show their old F1 car - they must be feeling sick. Then again - maybe the Merc engine has made a big difference for Brawn despite having to be shoe-horned in?

amacachi

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

I have to laugh whenever that Honda ad is on TV these days and they show their old F1 car - they must be feeling sick. Then again - maybe the Merc engine has made a big difference for Brawn despite having to be shoe-horned in?

I thought the Merc engine was only average for the grid.

Honda must've demanded a fairly high price for the team, surely they knew that they were going to be pacy this year.

Firewalkwithme

amacachi wrote: »

I thought the Merc engine was only average for the grid.

Honda must've demanded a fairly high price for the team, surely they knew that they were going to be pacy this year.

Maybe the Honda was just pretty average too?

They sold the team for a quid and gave Brawn something like 70 million to run the team this year!

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

Most of the money-throwing in both cases was for this year's car, which is why both teams were poor last year compared to excellent this year.

I'm talking about the money spent since the came in to F1 Honda obviously didn't think the breakthrough was going to come, which makes it all the better for me to see Brawn GP doing well. I hope they are watching and the bigwigs are sick, although i wonder is the Mercedes engine a factor too. Toyota are just getting on top now with no guarantees of staying there

How would you rank the factors to F1 success?

amacachi

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

Maybe the Honda was just pretty average too?

They sold the team for a quid and gave Brawn something like 70 million to run the team this year!

I wasn't sure if they gave him money for the year. Jesus they really must've wanted shot of the company!
Aye, from what I gather the engine isn't anything amazing. They wouldn't have had much time after the sale to improve the car, so it will have had to have been good beforehand.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I'm talking about the money spent since the came in to F1 Honda obviously didn't think the breakthrough was going to come, which makes it all the better for me to see Brawn GP doing well. I hope they are watching and the bigwigs are sick, although i wonder is the Mercedes engine a factor too. Toyota are just getting on top now with no guarantees of staying there

How would you rank the factors to F1 success?

True enough it's taken a while. I would say though that last year and probably most of 2007 they had more or less given up on serious development. They were still learning to run a team properly up til then and then decided to focus on the long term rather than get competitive for a season or two.

I would rank the factors to success in an individual season as follows:
1: Car.
2: Driver.
3: Team tactics.

Everything else contributes towards the car.

However I will say that 9 times out of 10 the best driver gets the best car, or he makes the best car. It's very rare for an average driver to get a top car. Which is why I reckon Kovalainen mustn't have been looking for much money to drive for McLaren. Can't see why else McLaren would've hired him, unless it was just to make sure there was no friction in the team and everyone knew their place.
Kimi is a good example actually, good ol' Sauber spotted his potential and it shone through straightaway.
Kimi doesn't strike me as a great development driver, unlike, say, Schumacher.

Slutmonkey57b

As the demise of all the "small" teams in F1 lie Jordan proved, No Money, No Progress, No Car.
True but look at Honda, Toyota throwing money at the car.

What was #1 on my list? Team Principal/Engineer. Honda had loads of money but their engineers weren't up to the job (not relative to the competition anyway). Likewise, a great engineer is going nowhere without a lot of exotic equipment, supercomputer time, and wind tunnels.

Quote:
As the rise of Button has proved, a Driver is a nobody without a good Car.
Agreed good driver and good car combo needs to come along together.

Wrong. A good car makes up for an average driver (Change in Button's fortunes). A great driver can only do so much with a poor car (Hamilton made up 8 places and was gifted another 8, but was still no threat to Button).

Quote:
As Ross Brawn proves by moving Benetton-Ferrari-Brawn, you don't get Car or Money without Team Principal (or Head Engineer).
Yes but i would include this with car. You don't get a good car without a good designer/engineer

And a good engineer won't always produce the #1 car every year - not even Brawn.

Quote:
As the end of multiple world championships shows, Luck trumps all at the vital moment (ask Mansell).
You need to be in a position to take advantage of luck, ask Hamilton.

Sort of the definition of Luck is that it finds you....

Quote:
The only time Drivers really come into play is when you have a really incredible driver dealing with adverse conditions (Schumacher driving in the rain), or when they're in a position to "influence" the result (Schumacher driving people off the road).
I don't think a bad driver(relatively speaking) has won a world driver championship recently.

At the start of last year, pundits were describing Massa as a bad (messy, accident-prone) driver. At the end of the year they were describing him as a wonder. As I said, there ARE no "bad" drivers. But the drivers in the cars only actually make a difference in a very small number of cases - the rest of the time, Engineer, then Money, then Car, then Luck are responsible.

Firewalkwithme

If we had this discussion a couple of years ago I think the brand of tyres you were running would have been up near the top of all of the lists we are seeing here.

EvilMonkey

amacachi wrote: »

I thought the Merc engine was only average for the grid.

I thought its one of the best.

amacachi wrote: »

I would rank the factors to success in an individual season as follows:
1: Car.
2: Driver.
3: Team tactics.
Everything else contributes towards the car.
However I will say that 9 times out of 10 the best driver gets the best car, or he makes the best car. It's very rare for an average driver to get a top car.

I would go along with that.

Which is why I reckon Kovalainen mustn't have been looking for much money to drive for McLaren. Can't see why else McLaren would've hired him, unless it was just to make sure there was no friction in the team and everyone knew their place.

That and it got rid of Alonso without a breach of contract settelment. Who is Kovalainen agent? Is it Flavio?

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

What was #1 on my list? Team Principal/Engineer. Honda had loads of money but their engineers weren't up to the job (not relative to the competition anyway). Likewise, a great engineer is going nowhere without a lot of exotic equipment, supercomputer time, and wind tunnels.
Wrong. A good car makes up for an average driver (Change in Button's fortunes). A great driver can only do so much with a poor car (Hamilton made up 8 places and was gifted another 8, but was still no threat to Button).

Hamilton's cars is not the worst car, its still ahead of the cars at the back not sure where it is exactly yet.

And a good engineer won't always produce the #1 car every year - not even Brawn.

You don't need the best car but you need a good car to have a chance.

Sort of the definition of Luck is that it finds you....

You make your own luck

At the start of last year, pundits were describing Massa as a bad (messy, accident-prone) driver. At the end of the year they were describing him as a wonder. As I said, there ARE no "bad" drivers. But the drivers in the cars only actually make a difference in a very small number of cases - the rest of the time, Engineer, then Money, then Car, then Luck are responsible.

Massa has always been a quick driver

I would rank driver more than you anyway.

Cartoon_Head wrote: »

If we had this discussion a couple of years ago I think the brand of tyres you were running would have been up near the top of all of the lists we are seeing here.

I think tyre management will be a big factor this year but we can lump that in with car if the car is good the tyreware should be better.