Really worried about my mother

midlandsmissus

Okay my mum is a confirmed atheist, you could probably call her a militant atheist. If she came across any one with religious views she would argue and argue with them.

Even though I have different views to her I love her so much,and I can understand how she has formed her opinions because she had a terrible time at the hands of nuns as a child.

Anyway I've never tried to push my views on her cause I'm a live and let live person, and I suppose Im a bit of an a la carte christian - not really sure if I believe in hell and all that, but something has happened recently that has really frightened me.

My mum rang me and said she has been having terrible recurring dreams at night where she felt she was falling down a dark pit and she knew that once she hit the bottom she would be dead. She said she would look up and she could see a tiny bit of light getting smaller and smaller so she knew she was going further and further down. She said she eventually woke up each time struggling to breathe and being really relieved that she was still alive.

She was eventually diagnosed with sleep apnoea, where your airway keeps closing off every few minutes, restricting oxegyn intake. she is on an oxegyn machine at night now, and is having no more dreams.

But Im so worried. If you think about it, techincally she had those dreams when she had stopped breathing so her body was near death before her airway opened again. And she felt herself going down a dark pit. Im just so worried that this was her starting to go down to hell. Im just so worried and confused about religion and everything. She's very old and I definitely wouldnt be happy if I end up anywhere else and I know she is being tortured in an awful place??? She's had such a hard life, it would be so unfair.

I know if any atheists come on here theyll say hell doesnt exist but why did she keep seeing herself going down into a dark pit?

Ive talked to her about it once and shes dead set in her ways, she really doesnt believe in god, though she did say 'why couldnt I have seen myself go to a lovely place'.

This is absolutely torturing me now. She's old and not in the best of heath, and I would be so unhappy if she died and I thought she was scared and in pain anywhere.

This is really making me question everything and im so confused??? Any advice mucho appreciated

prinz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Okay my mum is a confirmed atheist, you could probably call her a militant atheist. If she came across any one with religious views she would argue and argue with them.
I know if any atheists come on here theyll say hell doesnt exist but why did she keep seeing herself going down into a dark pit?
Ive talked to her about it once and shes dead set in her ways, she really doesnt believe in god, though she did say 'why couldnt I have seen myself go to a lovely place'.

That's a terrible situation. You should offer to pray for her. I don't think any atheist could object to someone else interceding on their behalf.

I know you said she is a confirmed and militant atheist but it seems to me she is starting to have doubts, however almost everyone experiences the same kind of doubt and apprehension about death, religious and atheist. it is only natural. Perhaps just stay with her and hold her hand, try to get her to relax and be more comfortable and offer to talk if she wants to.

I believe an atheist facing their own mortality will have a worse reaction than those who a firm believers in an afterlife, perhaps not, but i have known plenty of people who have been relaxed and even welcoming of death as a natural stage of life, soothed by Jesus' message.

preilly79

That's a very common description of what's called a near-death experience. The falling i'm not so sure about, but the imagery has been described as such in many cases.

Indicative of a journey to hell? Hmm, she clearly doesn't believe it, you're not so sure either. I would recommend you comfort her emotionally, but respect her athiest views and not rationalize this experience with religious mumbo-jumbo.

I won't insult you any further with my athiest views, and I hope that your mother gets well soon.

Tusky

Last night I dreamed that I was the King of Kerry. Now Ive never been to Kerry, so this is clearly not true. Dreams are just that, dreams.

Often, my dreams will reflect what is physically going in the room around me. For example, I fell asleep at a party once and dreamed that I was at a comedy gig and everyone was laughing. I then woke up and everyone was laughing. The slipping into darkness that your mother is dreaming about, could simply be her dreams representing her body's struggle to breath at that point.

Ask yourself this : If god is so wonderful, why would he send a good person (like your mother) to hell purely because she doesn't believe in him. Why is the onus on belief rather than being a good person.

Yet a serial murderer/rapist will go to heaven once he changes his ways and repents ? Doesnt make sense to me.

Either way, I'm sorry to hear about your mothers condition. I wish her all the best.

Gambler

You should offer to pray for her. I don't think any atheist could object to someone else interceding on their behalf.

If you want to pray for her then please feel free to but given her feelings I would suggest not "offering" it to her. This would probably only lead to an argument and that doesn't help anyone.

Personally as an atheist I'd prefer people not waste their time praying for me and I definitely would find it annoying if someone kept telling me they were praying for me. If they want to do it for themselves fine but leave me out of it

eamon234

Her body wasn't anywhere near death - sleep apnea rarely causes death directly as a result of the actual apnea occurring it's usually the symptoms (high BP, daily tiredeness leading to accidents/falling asleep at the wheel etc) that cause the problems later.
She's not on an Oxygen machine she's on a CPAP machine which just blows air into her airways when the apnea occurs and while it's uncomfortable at times makes a huge difference in most cases. You're reading way too much into this IMO.

RMD

Being an atheist, I can't offer much help but I wont be a 'militant' athiest.

Instead of going with what I'd consider the 'extremist' view of heaven and hell, look at it this way. It's preached your god loves all and accepts thats sins will be made, and they will be forgiven.

Your mother suffered a terrible time at the 'workers' of god, (the nuns) which drove her to not believing in god, now if god was to reject her from hell as a result of this what kind of god would he be, what justice would this be for his employees to cause?

My view on what is preached, god will accept her into heaven, for his understudies drove her away from him, god pushed her away with the right hand, and will now draw her back with the left. (or visa versa, forget the exact wording)

Relaw as well, if your mother is in poor health, the last thing she needs is someone trying to convert her, god will accept her, I have no doubt. (even this is coming from an atheist)

Galvasean

prinz wrote: »

I believe an atheist facing their own mortality will have a worse reaction than those who a firm believers in an afterlife, perhaps not, but i have known plenty of people who have been relaxed and even welcoming of death as a natural stage of life, soothed by Jesus' message.

Strangely, a study has shown the opposite may in fact be true.

About the dreams depicted in the OP. I've read that when the brain is starved of oxygen it can trigger a sort of 'tunnel vision' which is quite similar to that witnessed by people having near death experiences.
My sympathies to you and your mother.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

she felt she was falling down a dark pit and she knew that once she hit the bottom she would be dead. She said she would look up and she could see a tiny bit of light getting smaller and smaller so she knew she was going further and further down. She said she eventually woke up each time struggling to breathe and being really relieved that she was still alive.

From the rather horrible things you describe, it seems quite likely that your mum is still suffering from oxygen starvation which is known to cause the illusion of being in a tunnel with a strong light at the end of it -- it's quite a common problem. The following page has some more information on how this happens:

http://www.csicop.org/si/2004-05/near-death-experience.html

People who suffer from oxygen starvation frequently also suffer from Sleep Paralysis (which, it's believed, around half the population suffer from at one point or another during their lives). There's more on Sleep Paralysis here:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=9806

All other things being equal, I think it might be worth a trip back to your GP and explain that she still seems to be suffering from symptoms of oxygen-starvation and see what can be done to help.

robindch

prinz wrote: »

I believe an atheist facing their own mortality will have a worse reaction than those who a firm believers in an afterlife

Here's the report that Galvasean was referring to -- in the study, atheists have an easier time close to death, while religious people tend to have higher levels of psychological and physical distress:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7949111.stm

studiorat

Apnoea isn't all that uncommon, everybody knows someone who suffers from it.

The sense of falling while sleeping is generally believed to be the brains misinterpretation of your muscles relaxing just before falling asleep, also fluid in the ear moving will also give this sensation. It is not really a dream in the sense of an REM dream, more of an hallucination as the body is not quite asleep yet.

In the sense of actual REM dreams, just like the dreaming of your teeth falling out, or being chased, persistent dreaming about falling usually indicates stress or fear, if she has apnoea she will not have been sleeping well because she keeps waking and it's natural for these dreams to happen.

Hitting the ground in a dream about falling certainly does not mean you will die during the dream it's just a myth.

There's a good few medical sleep clinics in Dublin anyway, also one in Mullingar (midlands?).

You could also contact the Irish Sleep Apnoea Trust for more information.

Best of luck.

prinz

robindch wrote: »

Here's the report that Galvasean was referring to -- in the study, atheists have an easier time close to death, while religious people tend to have higher levels of psychological and physical distress:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7949111.stm

Thanks for that.Always welcome more info. Like I said personal belief based on personal experiences. Interesting study that though.

Rev Hellfire

You'll be better of dealing with the here and now rather than worrying about what may or may not be.

If you or your mother are concerned about her immediate health then as others have suggested seeking qualified advice from a medical practitioner is what's called for.

philologos

Tusky wrote: »

Ask yourself this : If god is so wonderful, why would he send a good person (like your mother) to hell purely because she doesn't believe in him. Why is the onus on belief rather than being a good person

She has been offered salvation, and has refused it. Hence she has rejected God, so why shouldn't He reject her at the final judgement? Whoever denies Jesus, will also be denied before the Father in Christian teaching.

Makes good sense to me anyway.

prinz

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

You'll be better of dealing with the here and now rather than worrying about what may or may not be.

If you or your mother are concerned about her immediate health then as others have suggested seeking qualified advice from a medical practitioner is what's called for.

Given that the OP said her mother has been diagnosed and is being treated, in accordance with said diagnosis I suggest you offer *helpful* advice in line with the OP's request, as this is the Christianity Forum she is well within the remit of this forum to worry about "what may or may not be".

Rev Hellfire

prinz wrote: »

Given that the OP said her mother has been diagnosed and is being treated, in accordance with said diagnosis I suggest you offer *helpful* advice in line with the OP's request, as this is the Christianity Forum she is well within the remit of this forum to worry about "what may or may not be".

Well since they're obviously worried about the physical symptoms of her condition going to a GP would be the logical course of action to take, perhaps they can recommend something to counter the effects she's encountering.

Once you've dealt with those you can then worry about the 'what may and may not be's.

I don't recall stating they are not permitted to post on the topic, perhaps you'd extend the same curtsey to others :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Okay my mum is a confirmed atheist, you could probably call her a militant atheist. If she came across any one with religious views she would argue and argue with them.

Even though I have different views to her I love her so much,and I can understand how she has formed her opinions because she had a terrible time at the hands of nuns as a child.

Anyway I've never tried to push my views on her cause I'm a live and let live person, and I suppose Im a bit of an a la carte christian - not really sure if I believe in hell and all that, but something has happened recently that has really frightened me.

My mum rang me and said she has been having terrible recurring dreams at night where she felt she was falling down a dark pit and she knew that once she hit the bottom she would be dead. She said she would look up and she could see a tiny bit of light getting smaller and smaller so she knew she was going further and further down. She said she eventually woke up each time struggling to breathe and being really relieved that she was still alive.

She was eventually diagnosed with sleep apnoea, where your airway keeps closing off every few minutes, restricting oxegyn intake. she is on an oxegyn machine at night now, and is having no more dreams.

But Im so worried. If you think about it, techincally she had those dreams when she had stopped breathing so her body was near death before her airway opened again. And she felt herself going down a dark pit. Im just so worried that this was her starting to go down to hell. Im just so worried and confused about religion and everything. She's very old and I definitely wouldnt be happy if I end up anywhere else and I know she is being tortured in an awful place??? She's had such a hard life, it would be so unfair.

I know if any atheists come on here theyll say hell doesnt exist but why did she keep seeing herself going down into a dark pit?

Ive talked to her about it once and shes dead set in her ways, she really doesnt believe in god, though she did say 'why couldnt I have seen myself go to a lovely place'.

This is absolutely torturing me now. She's old and not in the best of heath, and I would be so unhappy if she died and I thought she was scared and in pain anywhere.

This is really making me question everything and im so confused??? Any advice mucho appreciated

I know a lady who suffers from the same condition and yet she doesn't have the same tormenting dreams. Rather than your mother's 'dreams' simply being a function of oxygen deprivation, I'm going to suggest that their nature is really an extension of what is currently playing on her mind - specifically her own mortality and what that actually means. It is neither a evidence for or against the existence of God. That's my theological-pop psychology slot over.

Maybe you and your mum can have a chat about such matters, but it might be best to figure out what it is you believe first.

Tusky wrote: »

Ask yourself this : If god is so wonderful, why would he send a good person (like your mother) to hell purely because she doesn't believe in him. Why is the onus on belief rather than being a good person.

Yet a serial murderer/rapist will go to heaven once he changes his ways and repents ? Doesnt make sense to me.

Then you misunderstand the very basics of the Christian message. We don't believe that God sends a person to hell for the thought crime of unbelief. We can have this discussion at greater length if you are interested.

There is also a debate about what is constituted by the word 'hell'. I personally believe that it is a real place where you are eternally separated from God. This is quite distinct from the notion that you are actively subjected to eternal pitchforked punishment.

robindch wrote: »

Here's the report that Galvasean was referring to -- in the study, atheists have an easier time close to death, while religious people tend to have higher levels of psychological and physical distress:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7949111.stm

No, that's not what the study says, it's what the BBC article says. Besides, we have already had the debate before - all of which included personal inferences beyond the scope of the study. I suggest that your synopsis above falls under this.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516808

MatthewVII

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I know if any atheists come on here theyll say hell doesnt exist but why did she keep seeing herself going down into a dark pit?

well, to start, I'm an atheist so I should probably get that off my chest. Sleep apnoea is an incredibly traumatising time for your body for one, other posters have alluded to the changes in blood pressure, oxygen saturation, heart rate etc which basically equate to having a panic attack whilst you are technically unconscious. the only way that panic can manifest is in your subconscious/dreams. Whilst tormenting dreams are an uncommon way for sleep apnoea to manifest (usually its a bed partner who notices it- heavy snoring or periods of arrested breathing) it's not unreported. The important thing to know is that whilst your mother is in that body state, she is going through physical agony from a bodily point of view. It isn't at all strange that she would have a distressing vision given the amounts of adrenaline, cortisol etc that its taking to keep her systems firing. Dreams are poorly understood but we do know that bad dreams are often linked to stress, such as the extreme stress her body is under during her apnoeic periods

It's important that you and your mother realise that what she experienced was completely physiologically normal. It's also good for her to talk about it and get anything that's in the back of her mind off her chest. And you should relax a bit too, nothing about what she experienced is an indicator that she is going to hell or any such place, no more than a diabetic experiencing a hypo is.

bottom line - physiological disturbances can manifest themselves in strange ways, often to alert the body to problems. Don't be too worried by what happened and be reassured that the immediate threat to your mothers life appears to be under control. If this in any way changes your mother's thoughts on religion, be supportive but not pushy. Hope she does well.

Fanny Cradock

I'd certainly agree with most of what was written above. However, as I already said, it seems important to acknowledge that there may be two issues at play here. Firstly, your mothers medical condition. Secondly, a psychological aspect (existential crisis?) that is connected to - but also independent of - her condition. In other words, maybe your mother is beginning to ask fundamental questions about what it's all about.

studiorat

Existential Crisis? I like that! Existentialism is never without a little humor IMO albeit somewhat dark.

In fairness to MM's mother though, I'd hazard that as a "confirmed atheist" of some experience too, she has already asked some of these fundamental questions. Of course none of this actually speculating, helps the situation.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

She has been offered salvation, and has refused it.

That isn't true, according to the OP she is an atheist. You can't reject something you never believed you were offered in the first place.

As for the OP's question, as a few posters have already said the dreams she is experiencing fit a number of criteria for oxygen starvation. Hopefully now that she has been diagnosed and being treated the experiences will stop.

Slav

Why bother interpreting some dreams (especially if they are known to be caused by certain medical conditions) when the reality and the real world are right here and are much easier to understand and analyse?

Paying too much attention to dreams and other visions is usually a straight path to spiritual deception I believe. For the sake of spiritual health it's much safer to ignore them no matter how tempting it could be to interpret them in one way or the other.

Húrin

Remember that dreams usually have symbloci imagery in them rather than literal imagery.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Anyway I've never tried to push my views on her cause I'm a live and let live person, and I suppose Im a bit of an a la carte christian - not really sure if I believe in hell and all that, but something has happened recently that has really frightened me.

Not believing in hell doesn't make you an a la carte Christian. John Stott doesn't and he could hardly be so described. In my opinion the early churches didn't believe in it either.

Tusky wrote: »

Ask yourself this : If god is so wonderful, why would he send a good person (like your mother) to hell purely because she doesn't believe in him. Why is the onus on belief rather than being a good person.

Yet a serial murderer/rapist will go to heaven once he changes his ways and repents ? Doesnt make sense to me.

That would be grossly unfair. People's behaviour, whether "good" or "bad" is often predetermined by their environment rather than just choice. We are all capable of evil deeds. Most of us are lucky to not live in circumstances that demand that we commit them.

That is why salvation can only come by grace.

MatthewVII

Slav wrote: »

Paying too much attention to dreams and other visions is usually a straight path to spiritual deception I believe. For the sake of spiritual health it's much safer to ignore them no matter how tempting it could be to interpret them in one way or the other.

But doesn't this close the door to all those signs God sends us (the sort that Wolfsbane is so fond of having)? Or are such signs only to be interpreted in retrospect, when they are useless?