How do you judge a forwards performance?

therecklessone

I can't remember the exact quote, but former Spurs manager Bill Nicholson is supposed to have said of Jimmy Greaves:

All Greaves did today was score four goals

There's been a couple of comments here recently that got me thinking back to that quote, and motivated me to ask:

How exactly do you measure the role a forward player performs, either in an individual match or over time?

Are forwards judged on goals alone?
Do you provide allowances for a lack of creativity from the rest of the team?
Do you consider the forwards contribution in other areas, and do you allow for a reduced rate of goals because of that?

I think it's tough to provide an objective guide to judging a players performances, but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say.

Zatman

In order

Goals
Workrate
Holding the ball up
Build up play
Assists

Goals is always number 1

PHB

It depends on the forward.

Rooney I think goals are pretty much last in what I want from him. Van Nist you could judge entirely on his goals. It just depends on the forward.

Fratton Fred

I don't think you can judge a conventional forward alone. Was Niall Quinn a great forward? Did he score many goals? Did Kevin Phillips score many goals without him? Individually they were both good, together they were great. it's a teamm game so why judge an individual on one aspect? Drogba used to get stick for not scoring enough, but I don't think it is a coincidence that now he is scoring, Frank Lampard doesn't get as many. To me, you judge a forward on their contribution to the team as a whole, I would not say that one forward is better than another because they score goals, work rate and link up play is just as important.

GuanYin

Zatman wrote: »

In order

Goals
Workrate
Holding the ball up
Build up play
Assists

Goals is always number 1

Lots missing from that list.

Movement being the important omission imho. A good forward will open up space and move defenders for their team.

Positioning is pretty important too, people always overlook how important it is that a forward take up good positions, both to stress the defense and to get into scoring positions.

I think you underestimate workrate too. Most poor forwards don't work off the ball. Pressuring the defense is the best way to get the ball back and all the best teams have forwards that press.

In order for me.

Workrate (everything comes from this)
Goals
Assists
Movement
Positioning
Holding the ball

yahoo_moe

Zatman wrote: »

Goals is always number 1

I think blanket statements like this are just wrong - I know you're also including other factors but by this logic, the forward who scores 3 goals in a season is automatically better than the guy who provides 30 assists but never scores (or at least way ahead beacuse they're leading on the number 1 factor). Alright, it's an extreme example but it illustrates the point.

As PHB said, it all depends - personally I look for someone who's performing their role well within the team. That role can change from day to day, or from season to season as the players around him change and my judgment of him will change accordingly. Look at Bergkamp - didn't break double figures in the league for his last 7 seasons but was still awesome.

pierrot

The term forward is a bit too vague imo. You've got the out and out striker, old fashioned centre forward, deep lying striker, poacher/foxinthebox, trequartista and on and on.
What all of these can be judged on is basically, if they play well or if they play poorly. This can't be summed up with stats like goals or yards covered, varies from game to game depending on conditions, form and opposition. However, if somebody plays well, most people watching will be in agreement.
Playing well, consistently, for a prolonged length of time, is what players should be judged on.

eZe^

It's not all solely about goals, that's why I still maintain the fact that Villa is a better striker than Eto'o.

LeixlipRed

Robbie Keane does nothing on that list but score goals when he's playing for Ireland. And generally against inferior sides. I'd deem that nowhere near good enough. But some think he's fantastic. It's all subjective. I do really dislike Keane though, doesn't do a tap when he puts on the green jersey

Bubs101

Zatman wrote: »

In order

Goals
Workrate
Holding the ball up
Build up play
Assists

Goals is always number 1

You can't specify like that because there are at least two different molds of strikers. For the Bents and old school Owens holding up the ball is irrelevant whereas for the Crouch's and Ibra's it's near the top. Also, if every assist leads to a goal then it should be just as important. For me it's

1. Goals/Assists
2. Holding the ball up (for tall and strong guys)/Chance conversion (for the little ones)
3. Consistency (you need to rely on your forwards)
4. Positioning

As for the poster who says everything comes from workrate two words prove that wrong. Oliver Beirhoff. Man was a lazy bastard yet a great striker

redout

I would would add Precision/Accuracy to the above lists. Some strikers/attacking midfielders have abismal Precision/Accuracy. Take Frank Lampard for example - He is currently the player with the most shots this season in the premiership with 87 shots yet his goal return is just 10. A player who 9/10 blasts he ball as hard as possible and usually misses the target. Now compare that to Kevin Davies who is by no means a prolific goalscorer yet who has 11 goals in 41 shots.

Anelka 15 goals in 71 shots
Gerrard 13 goals in 81 shots
Ronaldo 13 goals in 81 shots
Robinho 11 goals in 61 shots
Davies 11 goals in 41 shots
Lampard 10 goals in 87 shots

So statistically Kevin Davies is the premierships most clinical finisher this season up as far as 23rd March.

dyl10

I think positioning and movement are by far the most important attributes to see in a centre forward of any type.
Naturally if you can get two strikers who will score you 20+ goals a season, then that's more important than any other statistic. That rarely happens, so at the end of the day I think you need to watch a centre forward to really judge his contribution.

You can't truly take in the full role of a player, without watching him live. Remember the camera follows the ball, not what's going on off it.

redout

dyl10 wrote: »

Naturally if you can get two strikers who will score you 20+ goals a season, then that's more important than any other statistic. That rarely happens, so at the end of the day I think you need to watch a centre forward to really judge his contribution.

Keane and Berbatov done it.

Cole and Yorke done it.

Any other pair of forwards ?

mike65

I judge a forward like I judge any player - is the team better or worse with him in it.

Smegball

Agree completely with PHB, really depends on the type of forward.

Inzaghi/Nistelrooy - Expect goals, and to hold the ball up.

Rooney/Tevez - Work rate, creativity, fluid movement and some degree of goals/assists.

Personally I think Etoo is the best forward out there, he combines both of these, with Torres being up there aswell.

dyl10

redout wrote: »

Keane and Berbatov done it.

Cole and Yorke done it.

Any other pair of forwards ?

Exactly, two pairings in 10 years. Doesn't happen much, but when it does you're laughing

anonymous_joe

It used to be goals, but these days I think football's moved beyond the goal-scoring forward.

In this day and age, a footballer has to be part of the team, much as I loved Van Nistelrooy, you need a footballer who can defend if needed, create if needed, and obviously, score if needed.

Goals are a result of a team's attacking, the team with the most attacking is usually the one dominating, and in these days that often requires strikers who are an integral part of the team, rather than a poacher, etc.

Hence Michael Owen being considered a less valuable player for England than Heskey.

eZe^

dyl10 wrote: »

Naturally if you can get two strikers who will score you 20+ goals a season, then that's more important than any other statistic.

Guess Barca are lucky that they have three forwards this year with over 20+ goals so far this season. Henry, Eto'o and Messi. :pac::pac:

Boskowski

Goals.
If a guy does nothing at all but somehow keeps scoring he mightn't be the most complete player in the world but nobody's going to take him off either. He's gonna be a hero.
On the other hand if you look brilliant on the ball and run your arse off every game but never score you gonna get axed eventually. Unless you have 3 assists per game or so then they just gonna stick you into midfield. A striker must score, period.

kinaldo

redout wrote: »

Keane and Berbatov done it.

Cole and Yorke done it.

Any other pair of forwards ?

Shearer and Ferdinand

Beardsley and Cole

_blank_

Ultimately a forward is judged on goals.

Here's an example from the team I manage.

I have a strike partnership, one lad holds the ball up unbelievably, hardly ever gets knocked off it, is always moving and showing for a pass, sets up a fair few goals, and scores a good few.

The other guy finished top scorer in our division this past season, scores about a goal a game, and does a bit of tracking back when the team needs it, but is all about the goals.

In my opinion, you can't have one without the other.

So both types are equally as important to the team.

What you don't want is some goon who plays off the shoulder, but misses more chances than he scores, never tracking back, and adding nothing to the team.

Zatman

Should have made clearer. The list i made was for number 9 like Van Nistelrooy or a Batistuta not a number 10 like Del Piero or Baggio

ditpoker

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I do really dislike Keane though, doesn't do a tap when he puts on the green jersey

grrr @ keane... i dislike him too... how dare he be our nations most successful goalscorer ever ever ever... almost zero contribution.... :p

odd that this topic be posted by a spurs fan.... i can never make up my mind on darren bent, he's by no means a pretty footballer, and often looks lost/confused... but works hard and has an impressive goals:games ratio... so must be good!

ditpoker

PHB wrote: »

It depends on the forward.

Rooney I think goals are pretty much last in what I want from him. Van Nist you could judge entirely on his goals. It just depends on the forward.

i think generally i speaking it shouldnt depend on the forward, and possibly what the OP is hinting at...

i.e. if you rate rooney at what he's good at it, then you'll think he is good. likewise with van nist... as an extreme example to highlight my point, based on this thought process i would argue shay given is the best striker then, not based on the goals he scores or the chances he creates but on the shots he stops at the other end cos "it depends".

IF you judge all forwards by the same criteria you start to see the differences, for me the likes of ronaldo (the fat one) and van nist have to be considered to be MUCH better forwards than the likes of rooney. now if you want to rate players independently, yes rooney is very good, but a brilliant striker he is not.

think it was gerry armstrong said of Raul - "no pace, poor first touch, cant head a ball, no right foot, bad communication.... greatest striker in the world"

dyl10

Zatman wrote: »

Should have made clearer. The list i made was for number 9 like Van Nistelrooy or a Batistuta not a number 10 like Del Piero or Baggio

Well then goals is clearly the most important contribution a goalscorer can make...