Dogma, orders and irrationality

nyarlothothep

Why are people so willing to accept ideological doctrine whether it be political or religious? I fail to understand this, when such doctrines can cause or increase suffering or blatantly ignore reality.

Secondly I think its important to question orders. That saying, "there are times when people of good consciousness stand aside" etc comes to mind. For example nuclear war. I remember reading about a soviet naval officer refusing to launch a missile attack at the behest of his commander, can't remember the period, could have the Cuban Missile Crisis. Now I think this is a good example of human nature, of standing back and thinking why am I doing this, realizing that following this instruction will is completely illogical and then simply saying no. But so often people will row in and support a system of injustice by following orders, eg concentration camps.

I think rationality and long term thinking would benefit everyone and the adoption of the fundamentals of the scientific thinking, to question and subject everything to rational inquiry.

time lord

In the U.S.A. after the war some simple test were carried out on joe public volunteers.

You would be given a dial and a button and could literally shock someone with electricty.

Unbeknown the wires were not actually attached to the receiver person. Who were all actors.

When ordered all people gave their first dart of electricity. Some actors said ouch! etc.

Then the people were told to add more juice. They duly did and the actors reactions were stepped up a small bit.

As it got worse and the doses got higher. At this stage some but very few opted out of the experiment. Actors were crying and beginning to beg for them to stop.

It progressed to a level where the people volunteers knowingly gave lethal doses. Some even continued after they believed the receivers to be dead on the instruction of the supervisors.

The medical people were really taken aback. The results aparently were never released as it would of clouded the issue of accountability with the ammount of ex-Nazis being tried, camp guards, ss etc.

I guess overall, people can be just so differant in fundenmental behaviors to each other.

Offalycool

Why are people so willing to accept ideological doctrine whether it be political or religious? I fail to understand this, when such doctrines can cause or increase suffering or blatantly ignore reality.

It is complex I suppose, but a good question none the less. I think people need some kind of certainty in life. Some people go further and convince themselves that doubt is a demon to be exercised, through a conviction in a black and white world view.

Secondly I think its important to question orders.

Spot on. Unfortunately, most people have a natural tendency to follow orders, social convention for example.

But so often people will row in and support a system of injustice by following orders, eg concentration camps.

Anti Semitism existed long before Nazi Germany. The Nazi's just exploited superstition surrounding the Jews and there relationship with the emerging European states. It was easy to point at an ethnic minority (Jews in particular) and hold them accountable for all societies problems. German society rallied to the call and collectively persecuted the Jews, they wanted to do it! The thing is, the Nazi's felt it was their duty to do it once and for all (final solution), for their own people and to put the Jews out of there misery so to speak.. the hopelessly sinister conspirators that they supposedly were. Its a common tactic dictatorships employ to unite the mob against the people, rally behind the great man and all that sh*t.

I think rationality and long term thinking would benefit everyone and the adoption of the fundamentals of the scientific thinking, to question and subject everything to rational inquiry.

Problem is, people are not consistent in their thinking, or social relations. Perhaps if people were encouraged to be a lot more honest, we could keep our dark irrationality at bay more effectively. We all could use a healthy history lesson. The answers to most our problems lie in our past, not in an uncertain future.

nyarlothothep

Good points. Even with internet debates like here on boards, you'll have one side or the other or both adhering to the party line or being willfully obtuse in the face of logic and facts. Its not that people should unanimously agree on anything, just to consider the flip side of the coin and conclude whether it makes sense or not. Interesting article but this part stood out most.

http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/edge207.html#zimbardo

wrote:

An army reserve MP – a private at the bottom of the ladder in the military – named Joe Darby saw the horrendous images of the abuse at Abu Graib, that his buddy Corporal Charles Graner gave him on a CD that was circulating among soldiers in that facility. Darby looked at the hundreds of images of abuse and degradation of Iraqui detainees, and said, “this is horrible – this is immoral. I have to turn these in to authorities; this should not be allowed to continue.”

It was his act that stopped the abuses. It was especially heroic because, being a lowly private army reservist, he had to take it to a senior officer in the investigating unit, and that took a lot of guts. He also knew that his buddies in his unit were going to get in trouble, and that if they got in trouble, there could be serious consequences. Namely, they might harm or even kill him. But he did it anyway; he did the right thing. In the end, he had to be put in protective custody for three years because everybody wanted to kill him – not only the people in his unit, but the people in his home town. The military also had to hide his mother and sister to protect their lives. Darby was seen as a traitor to America, to the honor or the military and to the Bush administration because he exposed the abuses and thus became an enemy of the people.

It sums up for me the idea that just because the majority of people think a certain way doesn't mean they're right, especially if whatever they think hasn't been subjected to scrutiny. This is why I like scientific method, if something is wrong or just plain stupid it will be pointed out.

orestes

time lord wrote: »

In the U.S.A. after the war some simple test were carried out on joe public volunteers.

You would be given a dial and a button and could literally shock someone with electricty.

Unbeknown the wires were not actually attached to the receiver person. Who were all actors.

When ordered all people gave their first dart of electricity. Some actors said ouch! etc.

Then the people were told to add more juice. They duly did and the actors reactions were stepped up a small bit.

As it got worse and the doses got higher. At this stage some but very few opted out of the experiment. Actors were crying and beginning to beg for them to stop.

It progressed to a level where the people volunteers knowingly gave lethal doses. Some even continued after they believed the receivers to be dead on the instruction of the supervisors.

The medical people were really taken aback. The results aparently were never released as it would of clouded the issue of accountability with the ammount of ex-Nazis being tried, camp guards, ss etc.

I guess overall, people can be just so differant in fundenmental behaviors to each other.

That was a pretty famous experiment carried out by Stanley Milgrim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Horrifying thought, normal people are capable of nasty stuff if directed to do so by a person in a position of authority.

Nevyn

'Normal' people ?
He was using phyc students as test subjects they aren't normal.

Offalycool

Fair play to Darby, a great example of an independently minded person who listens to his conscience.

Milgrim's experiments were revealing because it demonstrates our weakness for authority, but many of his subjects did not continue with it.

I think it is easer to persecute somebody if you have an ideological belief in what you are doing. It comes from a will to see your designs through, to prove that what you say will happen does happen. To be redeemed because the end justify the means.

It's total crap though.. The belief that everybody should not only see it one way, but interpret it one way. The moral high ground is the only place ideology can legitimately claim to judge us from, but morality imply's universality. You can't be moral about anything that's exclusive. And even if an ideology proclaims that it is for everyone, why must it insist everyone profess the same ideology? Ideolobots insist on the moral high ground which supposedly apply to all to justify the means, because the end hasn't happened yet.

Húrin

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Why are people so willing to accept ideological doctrine whether it be political or religious? I fail to understand this, when such doctrines can cause or increase suffering or blatantly ignore reality.
....
I think rationality and long term thinking would benefit everyone and the adoption of the fundamentals of the scientific thinking, to question and subject everything to rational inquiry.

We all accept doctrines: you need to do it in order to have a liveable worldview. You invest in these ideas that we should benefit collectively; that this would be best done by rationality and long term thinking, science, and justice.

nyarlothothep

I try not to subscribe to any political world view. In the respect that yes, those fundamentals you mentioned would be part of my thinking also, but I don't subscribe to any one way in achieving those aims. The only frameworks would be rational analysis and long term thinking, which would be methodological in nature.

994

time lord wrote: »

In the U.S.A. after the war some simple test were carried out on joe public volunteers.

You would be given a dial and a button and could literally shock someone with electricty.

Unbeknown the wires were not actually attached to the receiver person. Who were all actors.

When ordered all people gave their first dart of electricity. Some actors said ouch! etc.

Then the people were told to add more juice. They duly did and the actors reactions were stepped up a small bit.

As it got worse and the doses got higher. At this stage some but very few opted out of the experiment. Actors were crying and beginning to beg for them to stop.

It progressed to a level where the people volunteers knowingly gave lethal doses. Some even continued after they believed the receivers to be dead on the instruction of the supervisors.

The medical people were really taken aback. The results aparently were never released as it would of clouded the issue of accountability with the ammount of ex-Nazis being tried, camp guards, ss etc.

I guess overall, people can be just so differant in fundenmental behaviors to each other.

They redid the test recently, with 13 men and 13 women. 7 men obeyed right to the end, while 6 called a halt; all 13 women obeyed to the end.