Asking parents/fathers permission to marry

Silverfish

partyguinness wrote: »

So exchanging Apple hardware is symbollic of a "modern relationship" in your eyes?

Oh **** that sounds awesome, he could propose with a macbook air and I could get him a new macbook pro....

Oh wow.

Or whatever Apple have out in twenty odd years time. Netbooks hopefully.

coffee_cake

CiaranC wrote: »

Presumably all you ladies would strongly object to that other backward tradition of your father contributing or paying for the wedding?

The question isn't fully relevant for me, but assuming you mean my mother, I would indeed object unless she offered part payment as her gift and could well afford it. Short of that, it's our wedding, we pay for it. If we can't, we cut expenses.

I really find it amusing how an objection to this asking permission business brings up a crop of smug "oh well I'm sure you'd object to x tradition then too eh?" posts expecting to be able to paint me a hypocrite :rolleyes:

God forbid I have a problem with someone going behind my back on such a personal matter! And god forbid I object to that but am happy with other customs for completely different reasons!

It's actually starting to get irritating that my/other people's objections to asking permission are dismissed as "oh you just don't like tradition", when I have imo very valid reasons for the objection.

Scarinae

Even though it is veering off-topic, I just have to say that I agree with all the other people who aren't expecting their parents to pay for their wedding - I will be paying for my future hypothetical wedding with my future hypothetical fiance, unless my parents decide to contribute towards it as my wedding gift

RacoonQueen

Now there are two threads, with the same subject, that are going to be getting me very angry when people say the parents should be asked first. Well done OP.

Dudess

partyguinness wrote: »

So exchanging Apple hardware is symbollic of a "modern relationship" in your eyes?

I would see that as "gimmicky" and crass consumerism and a sad symptom of what has gone wrong with Ireland. I have no interest in slating your views or ideas. Each to their own.

And yet you've made snide reference to the Apple software a number of times...
The Apple software is a great idea when it's something both parties would love and wouldn't ordinarily be able to afford - AND neither was bothered with getting jewellery. The fact iguana and her now husband decided to splash out a bit indicates they were treating the event as special, not treating it as "renting a movie" as you say.
Beats a ring worth a few grand that neither party particularly wants but feels they "should" get... Now THAT is crass consumerism and a sad symptom of what has gone wrong with Ireland.

You said it isnt real?

So is it only real when the answer is in doubt..say 50-50? when one doesnt know the answer?? You cant be serious.

Although I have no figures to back this up, I think it is safe to assume that 90-95% of marriage proposals are accepted.

Where did you get that from? A proposal when both parties have already decided to get married is not real, as in, it's not spontaneous/unexpected... and frankly, where's the good in that? "Ooh, I can't wait for tomorrow at 7pm - my husband is getting down on one knee and proposing..."

I guarantee that hundreds/ thousands of couples would say that the day they got engaged was wonderful blah blah etc etc.

If it was unexpected, obviously.

Just becuse both parties know the question/have discussed it doesnt mean its a charade. It is a formal offer and acceptance.

If a couple have already discussed the question of marriage, a proposal can still be unexpected.
What's being referred to here is when marriage is definitely on the cards yet a forced proposal is still insisted on (by the woman) - definitely gimmicky.

Sure, have a party with friends and family to mark an engagement... but the guy getting down on one knee to hand her the ring, like they do in the movies, when both know they're getting married anyway and they're at home and nobody else is there to witness it... god, it's so cheesy.

partyguinness wrote: »

Life is so short and full of bad days that such a life altering decision should be welcomed and celebrated even if some find it corny or gimmicky.

But the decision has already been made...

Reducing down such a decision/event to being the same as renting film is just sad.:(

Yeah, a forced proposal "to keep the missus happy" - that is pretty sad all right.

would hardly condemn anyone who does as acting out a charade

You'd condemn people for buying Apple software instead of wedding/engagement bands when that's what they want to do though...

and so what if it is to an extent..what harm is being done?

Because god forbid people would treat marriage as something individual and sincere and a sign of profound love... rather than do what everyone else is doing. Some people here think that's a shame and are merely expressing that opinion.

Silverfish

Its kinda like this.

If you're with someone long enough to be proposing, you should kinda have an idea what type of person they are. If they're a complete and utter traditionalist, they'll want the parents asked beforehand.

If they are fiercely against that, then they won't want them asked.

If you're going to be popping the question, its a good idea to be sounding it out a year, or months, beforehand, even asking the question generally, 'What do you think of people who ask parents for their daughters hand in marriage' or whatever.

So then you know. Simple. But if you're with a person long enough, like I said, then you'd generally have a very good gist of what they want or don't want anyway.

Once in the long long ago, I was going out with this bloke. He decided unbeknownst to me, that he wanted to marry me. He asked my parents first, and they said 'Ehh, hmmm, its up to her'.
Then they ran to me and said 'Don't ****ing marry him, he's a louser, he's a total waste'. They were grand with us going out, but the idea of anything more serious coming of it panicked them, and made them tell me what they REALLY thought. Since they weren't blinded by love, and whatnot, and could see through him, whereas I could not.

After they pointed it all out to me, suddenly I saw all the trees in that wood, and was gone shortly after.

Dudess

bluewolf wrote: »

The question isn't fully relevant for me, but assuming you mean my mother, I would indeed object unless she offered part payment as her gift and could well afford it. Short of that, it's our wedding, we pay for it. If we can't, we cut expenses.

I really find it amusing how an objection to this asking permission business brings up a crop of smug "oh well I'm sure you'd object to x tradition then too eh?" posts expecting to be able to paint me a hypocrite :rolleyes:

Heh, I know. There's been a glut of them. "I'm sure you'd have no problem so with no white dress, no first dance, no hen night...?" Eh, yeah, I'd absolutely have no problem with that. I love the way it's presumed I (or others here) would. Anyway, I don't think there's any wedding tradition I like, but what's wrong with liking some and disliking others? It's hardly hypocritical to have preferences.

shellyboo

I think it's a nice gesture of respect - but that's just me. I have a great relationship with my parents, my Dad especially, and I'd be chuffed that a future partner had thought to seek his blessing before asking me to marry him.

Perhaps this makes me stupid or something, but my father's opinion matters to me. I certainly wouldn't be marrying anyone he didn't approve of. I know that if he had objections, they'd be valid ones, and worth listening to... and those objections would be expressed early in the relationship, well before marraige was on the cards. So any guy I've been with long enough to marry would know in advance that my Dad would of course be delighted to have him marry me - and given those conditions, I think it's a lovely gesture of respect between the man who's looked after me my whole life so far, and the man who will be looking after me for the rest of my life.

And that's not in a possessive way.... my Dad takes care of me the way he takes care of my mother and brother, the way I take care of all of them in return. Same with a partner - they take care of me, I take care of them.

Does this make me old-fashioned or backwards? Perhaps. But in my case, I'd like it. And nobody else's opinions or situation matters in a case like this.

Pythia

If my OH asked my dad he'd be like "wtf, why are you asking me and not her". He's not the meddling kind so he wouldn't really want to be asked, he'd see it as my business and not his. The OH gets on well with him, so he'd probably take that as 'permission' enough.

SeekUp

shellyboo wrote: »

I think it's a lovely gesture of respect between the man who's looked after me my whole life so far, and the man who will be looking after me for the rest of my life.

And that's not in a possessive way.... my Dad takes care of me the way he takes care of my mother and brother, the way I take care of all of them in return. Same with a partner - they take care of me, I take care of them.

And to me, that last bit the crux of the issue . . . If one's mother has looked after the family as well, and has looked after her daughter, the same as she's looked after the dad and he's looked after her and the daughter as well, and everyone has looked after each other, why does the dad get all the credit? Why is he the only one to get asked/told/requested/etc.?

dotsman

Dudess wrote: »

Don't see why people feel they HAVE to follow that particular one just because it's tradition. And yes, it is indeed backward.

But, don't you think that the whole concept of marriage is based on tradition? Ultimately, the original reasons for marriage are both sexist and no longer necessary.

On topic, I never thought about it until my brother-in-law asked my dad first. Obviously, he had discussed it with my sister over the years (going out for 7 years, living together for the previous 4 and had bought a place the year before), but rang my dad the night before they were going on a romantic (dirty:eek:) weekend away and asked him for his blessing (knowing full well my dad would give it).

I can't imagine any situation where the father refuses (unless either the father or the suitor is a complete a$$hole). It's more a symbolic gesture. Regardless of changes in society, (most) dads are extremely protective of their daughters (it's a natural instinct, not just something they decide to do). Similar to the whole "giving her away at the alter", it is a symbolic gesture that the father is happy to take a back seat and have this new guy be the most important man in his daughter's life and that this new man will love and protect (physically and emotionally) his daughter just as much as the father did (and still does, but from afar!)

shellyboo

SeekUp wrote: »

And to me, that last bit the crux of the issue . . . If one's mother has looked after the family as well, and has looked after her daughter, the same as she's looked after the dad and he's looked after her and the daughter as well, and everyone has looked after each other, why does the dad get all the credit? Why is he the only one to get asked/told/requested/etc.?

Because that's the tradition? You might as well ask get snotty about someone wearing a white dress "just because it's tradition". Yes, it's tradition - what exactly is wrong with that? If everyone involved knows that the dowry/possession shlte is just that, shlte - then where exactly is the harm in indulging in a little traditional gesture that shows respect for my Dad? I just don't get all the outrage. Fair enough, it's not for you. It IS for me... each to their own.

I also don't think it has anything to do with 'getting the credit' for anything. It's to do with another man - a future husband - assuming the same male protector role that my father has done, and asking my father's blessing for that. He wouldn't ask my mother because I don't have that kind of relationship with her.

SeekUp

shellyboo wrote: »

Because that's the tradition? You might as well ask get snotty about someone wearing a white dress "just because it's tradition". Yes, it's tradition - what exactly is wrong with that? If everyone involved knows that the dowry/possession shlte is just that, shlte - then where exactly is the harm in indulging in a little traditional gesture that shows respect for my Dad? I just don't get all the outrage. Fair enough, it's not for you. It IS for me... each to their own.

I also don't think it has anything to do with 'getting the credit' for anything. It's to do with another man - a future husband - assuming the same male protector role that my father has done, and asking my father's blessing for that. He wouldn't ask my mother because I don't have that kind of relationship with her.

Hey hey, I'm not getting snotty! Let's order a beverage or two, shall we?

As far as tradition goes, I like tradition -- I'd actually see myself as fairly traditional (although over the past few years, I've noticed that I do question some things that I never would've thought twice about before).

I'm just saying that if choosing to keep in tradition with the whole asking beforehand, why does the mom get left out? It's not outrage, I'm not outraged or pissed or affronted . . . I'm just making a point by asking about what's wrong with keeping tradition, but at the same time, extending a hand to the first lady of the family. That's all. Nothing against Dads!

Now, fair enough, you said you don't have the same kind of relationship with your mom -- that's one thing that's particular to you, and that's cool, I was saying in general (hence my use of the phrases 'one's mother,' etc. ).

SeekUp

shellyboo wrote: »

It's to do with another man - a future husband - assuming the same male protector role that my father has done, and asking my father's blessing for that.

And furthermore, I was thinking about the tradition more from a 'parent seeing child get married' point of view than a 'husband-to-be becoming the most important man in the woman's life instead of her father' point of view.

Now that seems perfectly reasonable to me (if, of course, it's applicable to their particular situation).

iguana

dotsman wrote: »

But, don't you think that the whole concept of marriage is based on tradition? Ultimately, the original reasons for marriage are both sexist and no longer necessary.

No. A marriage is a legal contract whereby two unrelated people become each other's next of kin. You can't become the closest family to a non-relative unless you both decide to, it doesn't matter how long you live together. And that is what a marriage (and in some countries civil union/partnership) results in. As people get married out of love they usually decide to make a big celebration of it, which is cool, it's a massive life moment. But ultimately it's a legal change of status, still very relevant and not remotely sexist in what it means.

JC 2K3

As a guy, the thought of asking a potential wife's parents' permission wouldn't even occur to me, I'd just ask her (if I randomly happened to be the one to ask).

shellyboo

SeekUp wrote: »

Hey hey, I'm not getting snotty! Let's order a beverage or two, shall we?

Let's! I wasn't calling you snotty though, I chose my language badly there. I meant, I don't see the point in picking on one particular tradition to object to within marriage as being old-fashioned or sexist... since, traditionally, the whole concept of marriage was rooted in possession. That's not the case any more. So the traditions associated with it, they've lost those connotations too, and now they just exists as nice traditions that can be kept or dumped depending on what they mean to you personally.

I could come on here and say "oh I think it's terribly sexist and appalling that women even conceive of wearing white wedding dresses since none of them are really virgins anymore and it's a symbol of sexual oppression"... but that would be silly. It's just a dress. And asking someone's father - it's just a gesture. And as has been pointed out, you should know the person you're marrying well enough to know if they'd have a problem with it or not.

SeekUp wrote: »

And furthermore, I was thinking about the tradition more from a 'parent seeing child get married' point of view than a 'husband-to-be becoming the most important man in the woman's life instead of her father' point of view.

Now that seems perfectly reasonable to me (if, of course, it's applicable to their particular situation).

See, I wouldn't see it as that. I would see it as my partner stepping into that male role that my father holds, but that's purely because of the relationship I have with my Dad.

It's all so subjective, that I'm not sure there's even a debate in this topic at all. It's like arguing over what are the best kind of eggs... everyone has their own ideas!

dotsman

iguana wrote: »

No. A marriage is a legal contract whereby two unrelated people become each other's next of kin. You can't become the closest family to a non-relative unless you both decide to, it doesn't matter how long you live together. And that is what a marriage (and in some countries civil union/partnership) results in. As people get married out of love they usually decide to make a big celebration of it, which is cool, it's a massive life moment. But ultimately it's a legal change of status, still very relevant and not remotely sexist in what it means.

OK, 2 points - firstly, the original roots behind the concept of marriage (we're talking about the days when our ancestors lived in caves and there were no formal marriages) were based on very specific gender roles that no longer necessarily apply in today's world.

Secondly, I guess I'm more aiming this at weddings and how the vast majority of people view them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against marriage, and probably will get married some day. But it will only be for legal (ie tax/parental/immigration etc) purposes, and/or as a "traditional" expression of my love for the girl. If there had never been a marriage before and up to this point we all just lived life as one big orgy - if we were to sit down and draw up a "plan" for how weddings should occur (from the engagement all the way through to the honeymoon), it would look very different to the majority of today's weddings.

SeekUp

shellyboo wrote: »

It's all so subjective, that I'm not sure there's even a debate in this topic at all. It's like arguing over what are the best kind of eggs... everyone has their own ideas!

Large brown free range -- and scrambled, thank you for asking. :P

kizzyr

shellyboo wrote: »

Because that's the tradition? You might as well ask get snotty about someone wearing a white dress "just because it's tradition". Yes, it's tradition - what exactly is wrong with that? If everyone involved knows that the dowry/possession shlte is just that, shlte - then where exactly is the harm in indulging in a little traditional gesture that shows respect for my Dad? I just don't get all the outrage. Fair enough, it's not for you. It IS for me... each to their own.

I also don't think it has anything to do with 'getting the credit' for anything. It's to do with another man - a future husband - assuming the same male protector role that my father has done, and asking my father's blessing for that. He wouldn't ask my mother because I don't have that kind of relationship with her.

A male protector role?? No one needs a male protector role in their life. What about all the women who never get married or aren't in a long term relationship with a man, are they making their way through life unprotected?

I love my Dad to bits and have a great relationship with him, however that said I would still be appalled if my boyfriend undermined me so much if he spoke to either him or my mother to ask for permission / blessing.

Whispered

K asked me, then asked my Dad for his blessing. To which he answered "whats the f'n point of asking me when she's the one who'll have to put up with ya" but I think the idea of asking permission is the same as asking for your fathers blessing. It's a sign of respect, it's traditional, it's sweet and it's thoughtful. I don't see it as being about "ownership" at all.

kizzyr

helena.ryan wrote: »

K asked me, then asked my Dad for his blessing. To which he answered "whats the f'n point of asking me when she's the one who'll have to put up with ya" but I think the idea of asking permission is the same as asking for your fathers blessing. It's a sign of respect, it's traditional, it's sweet and it's thoughtful. I don't see it as being about "ownership" at all.

I'd see it as being disrespectful towards me and as I am the one that would be marrying the man in question surely my respect and feelings are more important that those of my father? Just because its traditional doesn't make it sweet or thoughtful, many traditions are in fact anything other than this.

stovelid

When I think of a man asking another man for permission to marry his daughter, I'm always immediately put in mind of horse trading for some reason.

shellyboo

kizzyr wrote: »

A male protector role?? No one needs a male protector role in their life. What about all the women who never get married or aren't in a long term relationship with a man, are they making their way through life unprotected?

I love my Dad to bits and have a great relationship with him, however that said I would still be appalled if my boyfriend undermined me so much if he spoke to either him or my mother to ask for permission / blessing.

I never said I or anyone else NEEDS that. I certainly don't, I'm very independent. However, am I going to tell my Dad to fcuk off and stop caring about me? No I am not. Neither am I going to tell a partner that.

I would get on perfectly well without any men in my life. As it stands, I have men in my life... so that's the role my Dad assumes. I never said it was like that for everyone, in fact I went to great pains to point out that this is MY situation and I am well aware that it's not the same for everyone. So kindly don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said, I didn't even IMPLY that we all need a man to look after us.

kizzyr

shellyboo wrote: »

I never said I or anyone else NEEDS that. I certainly don't, I'm very independent. However, am I going to tell my Dad to fcuk off and stop caring about me? No I am not. Neither am I going to tell a partner that.

I would get on perfectly well without any men in my life. As it stands, I have men in my life... so that's the role my Dad assumes. I never said it was like that for everyone, in fact I went to great pains to point out that this is MY situation and I am well aware that it's not the same for everyone. So kindly don't put words in my mouth. That's not what I said, I didn't even IMPLY that we all need a man to look after us.

I wasn't putting words in your mouth. However, when you use phrases like "male protector role" how am I (or anyone else) expected to read that?

iguana

shellyboo wrote: »

That's not what I said, I didn't even IMPLY that we all need a man to look after us.

The phrase "male protector role" certainly implied that to me.

allabouteve

iguana wrote: »

The phrase "male protector role" certainly implied that to me.

All I would infer from the phrase above is that some men would assume that role.

Not that anybody particularly needs one.

iguana

allabouteve wrote: »

All I would infer from the phrase above is that some men would assume that role.

Not that anybody particularly needs one.

But the context it was used in, that the husband will be taking that mantle from the father, certainly implied this was a given. Not that it was the (arrogant - imo) way some men think.

the_syco

Ask the woman, and then if you want, the parents, but IMO, you're getting married to her, so ask her first.

Oh, and do you really care what the parents think?

Hagar

Ask her first, then the father, otherwise you're going to look an absolute tool if she says no.
I asked my wifes's father, it's about respect. I don't know what I, or the missus, would have done if he had said no.