Zanu-FF inaction is fatal for Economy

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Have you actually read the details of the recapitalisation? It's not really worth my time debating this if you're basing the rant on a newspaper extract.

You make alot of incorrect assumptions there frenchy

I am not here to debate or like some others am I trying to squash or divert free speech.

I have no fear of calling a Pig a Pig.

Do not attempt to Gild the Lily with me regarding the Bank Bail out.

My statements stand.

Économiste Monétaire

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

Thats only because Zanu-FF were dumb enough to guarantee the debt.

Deposits should have been guaranteed. Debts were another issue and one in which the government were clearly hoodwinked.

I note again your use of personal attacks and assumptions rather than addressing the OP.

(we all know that PS are 'pref' to OS - my point is that in an insolvent company, they are all worthless)

Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)

Do you seriously defend the pricing of these 'preferential' shares at 30 times the O.S. price?

Cannot wait to see how this price is justified by Économiste Monétaire.

Dob74

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

How can you justify this dole payment?
If I run my business stupidly, I go bankrupt.
If banks run there business stupidly, they get bailed out by the taxpayer.
The taxpayer bailed out AIB in 85 and it has failed again!
Time to break up the big banks. We cannot reward failure.

Économiste Monétaire

Barname wrote: »

I note again your use of personal attacks and assumptions rather than addressing the OP.

How ironic:
"Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)"

Barname wrote: »

A FF Gombeen will always have difficulty understanding the most basic of things.

Dont worry, move on Flamed. We will give you a pass.

Barname wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: gombeen for sure

Barname wrote: »

Thats rich coming from a FF gombeen.

Read my OP. I challenge you to contest any fact stated in it.

Are you capable, or will you as usual, crash and burn?

There were no personal attacks, I labelled your idea as stupid. I believe the point on whether you, personally, are to be self-evident; at least to anyone with a clue of economics and/or finance.

Barname wrote: »

(we all know that PS are 'pref' to OS - my point is that in an insolvent company, they are all worthless)

We? Whom do you believe you are speaking for? If you did know the difference I doubt you would try to juxtapose the two considering that the full amount is expected to be repaid within 5 years and with an 8% annual fixed dividend. What's the dividend on BoI shares again?

Barname wrote: »

Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)

Do you seriously defend the pricing of these 'preferential' shares at 30 times the O.S. price?

Cannot wait to see how this price is justified by Économiste Monétaire.

This is hilarious. Maybe because they haven't been priced at that? What is the strike price on the warrants attached to this investment? What value do they place on the ordinary stock of each bank? If you read the details of the recapitalisation then you'd know this.

Économiste Monétaire

Dob74 wrote: »

How can you justify this dole payment?
If I run my business stupidly, I go bankrupt.
If banks run there business stupidly, they get bailed out by the taxpayer.
The taxpayer bailed out AIB in 85 and it has failed again!
Time to break up the big banks. We cannot reward failure.

How can I justify ~€200 a week dole payments? Or, is that supposed to be a metaphor for a transfer payment from the tax payer to the banks?

Dob74

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

How can I justify ~€200 a week dole payments? Or, is that supposed to be a metaphor for a transfer payment from the tax payer to the banks?

a metaphor

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

This is hilarious. Maybe because they haven't been priced at that? What is the strike price on the warrants attached to this investment? What value do they place on the ordinary stock of each bank? If you read the details of the recapitalisation then you'd know this.

So many hypotheticals in a time of such uncertainty what a broth of slop it is in which you place your faith.

Simply put, I admire your faith but it is blind.

Lets roll with your argument for a moment though....

Lets examine the 'Preferential Shares' see what makes them so special...

Fixed dividend of 8%, payable annually. Dividends payable in cash at the discretion of the bank. If cash dividend not paid, then ordinary shares are issued in lieu at a time no later than the date on which the bank subsequently pays a cash dividend on other Core Tier 1 capital.

Right so, if the bank makes a profit (questionable) It may at ITS own discretion choose to pay the taxpayer the fixed dividend.

for example: If the bank chooses to retain a profit for distribution as bonus money and neglects the fixed dividend the taxpayer cannot quibble.

All that will happen is that New OS will be issued as payment (MADNESS) what value is determined for this potential? none stated!

The State will vote no more than 50% of the votes associated with the ordinary shares which it receives through exercise of the Warrants.

Another gem!!! effectively as each year passes and the banks fail to post profits the taxpayers dividend will be paid in O.S.
BUT
These OS become LESS THAN OS when holding of same exceeds 50%

Shall I continue with your enlightenment Économiste Monétaire?

Varkov

I blame it all on Fianna Fail, no one else is to blame for the sham that has been the Irish government for the last 10+ years!!

Économiste Monétaire

Barname wrote: »

Right so, if the bank makes a profit (questionable) It may at ITS own discretion choose to pay the taxpayer the fixed dividend.

for example: If the bank chooses to retain a profit for distribution as bonus money and neglects the fixed dividend the taxpayer cannot quibble.

All that will happen is that New OS will be issued as payment (MADNESS) what value is determined for this potential? none stated!

Payments on the dividends of preference shares transfer from each year. What's the mechanism for the issuance of new shares as a replacement of cash?

Barname wrote: »

Another gem!!! effectively as each year passes and the banks fail to post profits the taxpayers dividend will be paid in O.S.
BUT
These OS become LESS THAN OS when holding of same exceeds 50%

Shall I continue with your enlightenment Économiste Monétaire?

And what happens to the voting rights of the shares when they are sold? Magically, they retain full voting rights, so they aren't "less than OS." They're sold to an amount equivalent to the dividend owed. Of course, what you're saying is that all banks will be making an operating loss and the directors of the banks, with their own interest in dilution, will want to issue new shares as opposed to wanting to pay the government off as quickly as possible. Feel free to continue.

You've also avoided the pricing question I raised. What value does the state place on the ordinary shares of the banks? Is it 30 times the value on 31-03-09?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Payments on the dividends of preference shares transfer from each year. What's the mechanism for the issuance of new shares as a replacement of cash?


And what happens to the voting rights of the shares when they are sold? Magically, they retain full voting rights, so they aren't "less than OS." They're sold to an amount equivalent to the dividend owed. Of course, what you're saying is that all banks will be making an operating loss and the directors of the banks, with their own interest in dilution, will want to issue new shares as opposed to wanting to pay the government off as quickly as possible. Feel free to continue.

You've also avoided the pricing question I raised. What value does the state place on the ordinary shares of the banks? Is it 30 times the value on 31-03-09?

Address the blatant holes as listed by me and I will address your post.

I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect.

ma connaissance est infinie

Just wondering.... Are you Dan McLaughlin?

Économiste Monétaire

So, you are now the crusader for the Irish tax payer? "I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect." :rolleyes: Drama more, please. Your assumption is that they will not pay transferable dividends and that was about all you pointed out. If they refused to pay all preference dividends because they have no money, and by extension bond holders, they would be nationalised. I know of no economists discussing this option, the main fear is that they'll attempt to pay off the debt too quickly to get the government off their back.

Basically: preference shares = ordinary shares. We've paid 30 times over what we should be paying, by using your pricing equivalence method. FF are to blame for everything, including Madonna's obsession with Malawi children. April Fools doesn't exist, Biffo cares what people say about him on a message board. Have I missed anything?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

So, you are now the crusader for the Irish tax payer? "I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect." :rolleyes: Drama more, please. Your assumption is that they will not pay transferable dividends and that was about all you pointed out. If they refused to pay all preference dividends because they have no money, and by extension bond holders, they would be nationalised. I know of no economists discussing this option, the main fear is that they'll attempt to pay off the debt too quickly to get the government off their back.

Basically: preference shares = ordinary shares. We've paid 30 times over what we should be paying, by using your pricing equivalence method. FF are to blame for everything, including Madonna's obsession with Malawi children. April Fools doesn't exist, Biffo cares what people say about him on a message board. Have I missed anything?

You definitely are a pro FF employee of the Dep of Fin. arent you?

Économiste Monétaire

I am Brian Lenihan. Want an autograph?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

I am Brian Lenihan. Want an autograph?

Then Brian, you are excused, I know you are not capable of answering my questions.

Nice lad Brian...

Dublin_Gunner

Wouldn't surprise me if he spent all day on forums actually..........

Économiste Monétaire

Thanks. Any chance you have ~€7bn lying around and are feeling generous?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Thanks. Any chance you have ~€7bn lying around and are feeling generous?

:pac:

thebman

Varkov wrote: »

I blame it all on Fianna Fail, no one else is to blame for the sham that has been the Irish government for the last 10+ years!!

No one else? Not even the people who voted for them again and again?

Or the people that didn't bother voting for anyone at all?

Barname

Barname wrote: »

Purple Gorilla, It is staring you in the face.

It does not add up, the government are ducking the obvious.

Natural Markets do not tolerate manipulation or crutches.

Cowen is playing with our money and I am telling you straight that the 7 Billion is going to be wasted.

(7 Billion should have resulted in Nationalisation but our politicians have not got the required balls to face down the unfortunate shareholders)

17 months later S&P confirm my post

Markets do not tolerate manipulation or crutches

Économiste Monétaire

I really don't know why this wasn't locked the first time around.