HSE closes centre for patients - but retains staff

civis_liberalis

City mental health facility to close for 40 days

Tue 31st March 2009


FOUR training centres in Galway for people living with mental health problems will close for 40 days this year because the Health Service Executive West is ‘penny pinching’ on the cost of transport and meals, the Sentinel has learned.
The HSE West has confirmed that the Galway Training Centre in Merlin Park and three training centres in Ballinasloe, Loughrea and Tuam, which cater for people with mental illness and disability, will close for 40 days this year.
The closures will directly affect 240 clients who depend on the centres’ services every week.
The Sentinel understands that staff at the centres will still be brought into work but the clients will have to find alternative arrangements – in many cases the clients have no family to go to.
The closures – which are designed to save money onthe cost of providing transport and meals – have been described as a “despicable...


Complete disgrace :mad:

Robbo

Reminds me of that Yes, Minister where Hacker visits the most efficient hospital in the NHS. 300 administrators and no patients.

doolox

Guess who?
Would it happen in the private sector? At work but no work to do?
I think not.
Would the customers stand for it?
No.

Zzippy

doolox wrote: »

Who has the union backing and bargaining power?

Guess who?
Would it happen in the private sector? At work but no work to do?
I think not.
Would the customers stand for it?
No.

FFS! Blaming this on the unions? Are you for real, or just jumping on the "bash the public sector" bandwagon?
This is a HSE money-saving decision, do you for one second think the unions want patients or services affected by cutbacks? This is nothing to do with unions. In my experience the frontline staff in the HSE - those nurses and doctors who would be working with these mental health patients - are dedicated professionals. You think they want to come into work and have no patients to help?
Grow up and educate yourself so you can form informed opinions, don't spout some secondhand anti-PS bull that you read in the Sun...

doolox

doolox wrote: »

Guess who?
Would it happen in the private sector? At work but no work to do?
I think not.
Would the customers stand for it?
No.

I suppose it fair that hard working doctors and nurses are paying a fortune in a pension levy to fund the dole money of the private sector who were making a fortune during the good times while nurses earned the same and now that they have lost their jobs the already underpaid nurses have to hand over their very hard earned money.

Its a disgrace and they should have gone on strike. I'm not standing up for all the public sector but Doctors, nurses and teachers etc are being treated very poorly.

I would be working in the private sector myself if I could have got a job but couldnt so I am doing a phD now instead so I am not saying there was anything wrong with people making lots of money during the good times.

jasonh

I think those private sector ppl who have lost there jobs - would have rather taken a 10% pay-cut than queing at the dole office.
And this business of 'private sector who were making a fortune during the good times' - i certainly didn't make a fortune - in fact i would have probably got paid more (or at least on par) working for the university.

diverdriver

Just to give another example. The HSE sent out certain lab work that used to be done in UCHG to save money. None of the staff were made redundant, just sent to other labs which are now overstaffed. None of these people earn less than 50K a year.

I suppose it fair that hard working doctors and nurses are paying a fortune in a pension levy to fund the dole money of the private sector who were making a fortune during the good times while nurses earned the same and now that they have lost their jobs the already underpaid nurses have to hand over their very hard earned money.

That's total billox. Every penny paid to nurses and doctors comes from hard working private sector worker's taxes. There are no underpaid Doctors and Nurses. Most people on the dole were lower paid workers. In my last private sector job on three and six month recurring contracts. I was paid less than a tenner an hour and I earned every last cent of it and I could have been let go at a minutes notice. Name a public sector job where that happens?

Really people need to get it into their heads. The money isn't there anymore to pay this huge bloated public service. It simply isn't there!

jasonh

jasonh wrote: »

I think those private sector ppl who have lost there jobs - would have rather taken a 10% pay-cut than queing at the dole office.
And this business of 'private sector who were making a fortune during the good times' - i certainly didn't make a fortune - in fact i would have probably got paid more (or at least on par) working for the university.

I admit I probably made a bit of a generalisation regards people making lots of money but their was up-roar when their was talk of strikes with regards to the pension levy with people saying it was a disgrace for them to be going on strike so in effect they are happy for the public sector to be punished.

I will make the point again, Personally I have always preferred the idea of working in the private sector and it is where I will probably end up at least for a while but people cannot expect public sector workers to hand over large amounts of their wages either. I would also agree that their is massive waste in the public sector and lot of office jobs that shouldn't exist in the first place.

diverdriver

diverdriver wrote: »

There are no underpaid Doctors and Nurses.

Granted doctors are paid enough but for the work they do, responsibility and hours every single Nurse is underpaid. Both my mother and sister are nurses and I know how hard they work and the pressure they are under so don't come out with a load of bollix that you know absolutely nothing about!

There are plenty jobs in the HSE that need to go but these are people in the offices etc not the nurses(or nurses working in nurse management etc which also play a vital role in running a hospital), doctors, porters, health care assistants who try their best to keep hospitals functioning every day.

EDIT: I forgot to say that I agree that the mental health clinic should not be closed its not right at all and it is a disgrace but that is the HSE's fault. The other points I have made have been off topic so sorry about that OP.

civis_liberalis

Robbo wrote: »

Reminds me of that Yes, Minister where Hacker visits the most efficient hospital in the NHS. 300 administrators and no patients.

Ya, and they ended up housing assylum seekers there. Great show. Amazing how current the topics they covered in it are still, considering it's over a quarter of a century since it first aired.


Back to the present... What about the poor souls in need of care that don't have family that could fill the void while it is closed.:mad:

Mrs OBumble

Miah Gigantic Talker wrote: »

and lot of office jobs that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Please name some.

Mrs OBumble

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Back to the present... What about the poor souls in need of care that don't have family that could fill the void while it is closed.:mad:

The places involved are training centres, not places offering residential care. I'd imagine some clients will spend their days hanging around Eyre Sq and the like. Others will stay at home and watch TV, or whatever else it is for the time each day that they don't spend at the centres.

Mrs OBumble

doolox wrote: »

Guess who?
Would it happen in the private sector? At work but no work to do?
I think not.
Would the customers stand for it?
No.

I would imagine that the majority of the staff will be on enforced annual leave (whether or not their kids have school holidays at the time), or undertaking training or other non-patient-contact activity that they need to do in the course of a year anyway.

Don't get me wrong: I think closures for this long are stupid, because the clients will relapse because of gaps in their programmes, and then the health-service will have to spend resources sorting out their medication and behaviours again. But thoughtless sensationalist reporting and knee-jerk reactions are equally silly.

Oh: and things like this do happen in the private sector. Parents who have kids in a creche typically have to pay the creche fees even on the weeks the place is closed or the child is away, just to keep the place available for the child. (Justified by the fact that the staff still need to be paid, even if the place is closed.)

axiom32

having not yet read the full article can anybody tell me what day is ear marked for the unions to head to the streets to highlight this outrage against the patients

Sconsey

This thread has veered off into political generalisations but what the hell?

Health service is probably one of the most inefficient organisations in the country...I don't think nurses are overpaid at all, it's a sh1tty job for most of them, they deserve to be well paid....most public service workers are deluded idiots if they think they are going to get away with the overpayment they've managed to get the last few years....pension levy was a good idea badly implememnted...putting patients out on the street for 40 days will not solve anything.

Sconsey

JustMary wrote: »

I would imagine that the majority of the staff will be on enforced annual leave (whether or not their kids have school holidays at the time

Doubt it, don't think you can force an employee to change the terms of their contract. Depends on the type of contract I guess but in most cases it has to be volountary.

Mrs OBumble

Sconsey wrote: »

Doubt it, don't think you can force an employee to change the terms of their contract. Depends on the type of contract I guess but in most cases it has to be volountary.

Annual leave.

Some contracts say that it has to be taken at mutually agreed times. However most have the provision for employers to direct that it is taken as times to suit them. I'm not sure if the HSE contracts are like this, but would expect them to be.

Now forcing staff to take unpaid leave would be a whole different ball game.

Zzippy

Joy Unsightly Joyrider wrote: »

EDIT: I forgot to say that I agree that the mental health clinic should not be closed its not right at all and it is a disgrace but that is the HSE's fault. The other points I have made have been off topic so sorry about that OP.

Yes it went way off topic. Yes the clinic should not be closed, but your original post blamed it on unions - its not the unions fault, nor ordinary workers in the PS, its management and govt you should be blaming.
Other people going off topic and laying into PS workers is just getting boring at this stage. Cop on and start putting the blame where it lies - FF.

jasonh

i've heard a few stories about married couples arguing over this private vs public (mainly because one of them is in the public sector and the other one is in private).
But, it would be interesting to hear from a couple who, one was originally in private and the other in public, and the private one has lost their job. I wonder what the one in the PS thinks now??

I do agree that nurse's get paid feck all for what they have to deal with - maybe an exception should be made with them re: pension levy?

Teachers, the thing that always sticks with me on this one, is the amount of holidays they get.

JustMary

JustMary wrote: »

Please name some.

I have a fair idea of the workings of the hse and their are plenty of people on big money but doing very little. I am not talking about nursing support, nurse management and other jobs that deal with organization of facilities etc etc the jobs I'm talking about have nothing to do with the actual health care aspect and some are just made up jobs with nothing really to do. Actually nurse managers are very poorly paid and people with equivalent levels of responsibility etc in the private sector would be earning 3 times as much.

Zzippy wrote: »

Yes it went way off topic. Yes the clinic should not be closed, but your original post blamed it on unions - its not the unions fault, nor ordinary workers in the PS, its management and govt you should be blaming.
Other people going off topic and laying into PS workers is just getting boring at this stage. Cop on and start putting the blame where it lies - FF.

I didnt blame it on unions . I was defending ordinary workers, I even thanked your post! Are you confusing me with another poster?

Zzippy

Joy Unsightly Joyrider wrote: »

I have a fair idea of the workings of the hse and their are plenty of people on big money but doing very little. I am not talking about nursing support, nurse management and other jobs that deal with organization of facilities etc etc the jobs I'm talking about have nothing to do with the actual health care aspect and some are just made up jobs with nothing really to do. Actually nurse managers are very poorly paid and people with equivalent levels of responsibility etc in the private sector would be earning 3 times as much.



I didnt blame it on unions . I was defending ordinary workers, I even thanked your post! Are you confusing me with another poster?

Oops sorry, it was doolox, not yourself! My bad! :o

Zzippy

Zzippy wrote: »

Oops sorry, it was doolox, not yourself! My bad! :o

No problem!:)

doolox

AS one of the unfortunates excluded from Social partnership not through my own choice I stand by what I said in my original post on this subjects.
HSE are out to save money.
The clients in this case have no political strength and no bargaining power so they are the ones to suffer.
The staff in question are in a union and so have some element of political bargaining power.
They will be paid and kept on because of this power.
Their clients lose out because of their lack of power.
It is not a pleasant situation but I would love to be a member of a union. I would love to have the power, but as an employee of two different U.S multinationals operating in this country we were told Unions are not recognised and pay agreements are strictly on a one to one basis between each worker and the management.
Needless to say under this very one sided arrangement our bagaining power was weak and our wages have become eroded when compared to SOME
members of the public sector.
This doesn't mean I am anti-union.
This doesn't mean I am anti-public sector.
I would love to have my share of the power they have to leverage a better wage and more job security for myself.
I also recognise in myself a certain level of flexibility and willingness to change that is sometimes lacking in the public service. Unfortunately this did not stop me losing my jobs each after 14 years or so of service.Also unfortunately some people in the public sector will have a big shock when practices and methods now used in the private sector get copied over into the public sector in the search for more efficiencies.
Expect skin and hair to fly as battle-lines are drawn up and war is declared on the last bastions of traditional trade unionism.
It won't be pleasant and I won't be gloating as more people join the ranks of the servile, compliant and disposable wage-slaves in the comtemporary private sector.

gaeilgegrinds

Regarding teacher's holidays, I know nobody in my school who take those 11 weeks, I work 8 of them between Irish college or reader in school and correcting. Just so ye see how most of us work that.

Head The Wall

Gaeilgegrinds I presume you get paid for that work you do during your holidays. So you are getting paid twice, the point still stands!!!

Most people when they get holidays take them because they need them but ye get so much holidays that ye can take on another job to pass the time

Zzippy

doolox wrote: »

AS one of the unfortunates excluded from Social partnership not through my own choice I stand by what I said in my original post on this subjects.
HSE are out to save money.
The clients in this case have no political strength and no bargaining power so they are the ones to suffer.
The staff in question are in a union and so have some element of political bargaining power.
They will be paid and kept on because of this power.
Their clients lose out because of their lack of power.
It is not a pleasant situation but I would love to be a member of a union. I would love to have the power, but as an employee of two different U.S multinationals operating in this country we were told Unions are not recognised and pay agreements are strictly on a one to one basis between each worker and the management.
Needless to say under this very one sided arrangement our bagaining power was weak and our wages have become eroded when compared to SOME
members of the public sector.
This doesn't mean I am anti-union.
This doesn't mean I am anti-public sector.
I would love to have my share of the power they have to leverage a better wage and more job security for myself.
I also recognise in myself a certain level of flexibility and willingness to change that is sometimes lacking in the public service. Unfortunately this did not stop me losing my jobs each after 14 years or so of service.Also unfortunately some people in the public sector will have a big shock when practices and methods now used in the private sector get copied over into the public sector in the search for more efficiencies.
Expect skin and hair to fly as battle-lines are drawn up and war is declared on the last bastions of traditional trade unionism.
It won't be pleasant and I won't be gloating as more people join the ranks of the servile, compliant and disposable wage-slaves in the comtemporary private sector.

You've gone completely off topic, turning the issue of a clinic closing down which has nothing to do with the union into a rant about the public sector. If the staff were not in a union they would still be kept on during a temporary closure because the HSE cannot afford to lose those staff and have to rehire and retrain more staff.

Head The Wall wrote: »

Gaeilgegrinds I presume you get paid for that work you do during your holidays. So you are getting paid twice, the point still stands!!!

Most people when they get holidays take them because they need them but ye get so much holidays that ye can take on another job to pass the time

You're assuming that GG is in a permanent post. There are huge numbers of teachers in temporary posts, who get no pay when schools close for summer holidays, Christmas, Easter, etc. Thats why the numbers on the dole rise so much at those times.

Mrs OBumble

Zzippy wrote: »

If the staff were not in a union they would still be kept on during a temporary closure because the HSE cannot afford to lose those staff and have to rehire and retrain more staff.

Rubbish: if it were not for the union power, the HSE would do exactly what the private sector do, and tell the staff to take unpaid leave, or put them on a three-day week. The bit about not being able to afford to lose them would be true only if there were so many other jobs out there that this treatment would make the staff leave, which isn't the case in the current environment.

I've worked in both the public and private sectors overseas, and am firmly of the opinion (there) that public-sector workers are no better off. Here, I suspect that the same is true in terms of workloads and stresses. But they are better off because they don't seem to ever face redundancy and they have guaranteed, increasing-with-salary-changes-even-after-they've-retired pensions.

Mrs OBumble

Joy Unsightly Joyrider wrote: »

I have a fair idea of the workings of the hse and their are plenty of people on big money but doing very little. I am not talking about nursing support, nurse management and other jobs that deal with organization of facilities etc etc the jobs I'm talking about have nothing to do with the actual health care aspect and some are just made up jobs with nothing really to do.

Please quote some job-titles.

JustMary

JustMary wrote: »

Please quote some job-titles.

I'm not going to start naming positions on a public forum, Galway is too small a place for that.

Zzippy

JustMary wrote: »

Rubbish: if it were not for the union power, the HSE would do exactly what the private sector do, and tell the staff to take unpaid leave, or put them on a three-day week. The bit about not being able to afford to lose them would be true only if there were so many other jobs out there that this treatment would make the staff leave, which isn't the case in the current environment.

I've worked in both the public and private sectors overseas, and am firmly of the opinion (there) that public-sector workers are no better off. Here, I suspect that the same is true in terms of workloads and stresses. But they are better off because they don't seem to ever face redundancy and they have guaranteed, increasing-with-salary-changes-even-after-they've-retired pensions.

Yeah, what a wonderful way to treat our doctors and nurses, put them on a 3 day week. Guess what, there aren't that many trained psych doctors and nurses out there that will take that treatment.

Instead of focusing on unions that represent workers, how about talking about the disregard for patients lives and health that the HSE has shown? Oh no, you wouldn't be able to get your bitter post about PS workers in then, would you?

daithi1970

..just to correct Diverdiver, 7 temporary scientists were let go when the cytology lab closed,and to say that all staff were on >50k is factually incorrect.Moreover, of those staff that were redeployed, not all have been given permanent contracts.

daithi