Nurturing Irelands young talent

everdead.ie

With the recent talk about our lack of strength in depth and quality in center midfield and obviously our full backs what must we do in the future to insure we nurture talent in Ireland to propell the national team forward.

Is it our leagues lack of strength when compared to englands and other european nations. Or the shambles that is the FAI. I genuinely don't believe it is our relevent size compared to these other countries look at croatia and portugal.

applehunter

Andy Reid, Keith Fahey....both ball playing midfielders not even in the squad...

dsmythy

I think Ireland's problem will always be that football has competition from that other field sport association, the GAA.

IRISHSPORTSGUY

dsmythy wrote: »

I think Ireland's problem will always be that football has competition from that other field sport association, the GAA.

It is a bloody miracle we can be competitive in any sport considering the death hold the GAA has on young kids in this country trying to stifle their potential to represent their country in any other sports. Apart from our relatively small population, this to me explains why we are so average at football - our potential world-class players are mucking about in the "passionate" encounter between two parishes in a godforsaken rural Leitrim field in a pointless grudge match.

bohsman

Between the GAAs stronghold and the willingness on the FAIs part to let English clubs nurture our better young players are the main reasons its gone so bad imo. Not sure on the numbers but say 100 16 years are going across annualy at the moment, Id say that that should actually be the best 10 going across with the other 90 getting into proper youth academies here.

everdead.ie

I'm very surprised that the FAI Dont have past players with summer soccer schools set up?

redout

dsmythy wrote: »

I think Ireland's problem will always be that football has competition from that other field sport association, the GAA.

Aye, totally agree. I reckon the Gaa has robbed us of a few good players over the years. Gaa is immensely popular in this country and probably deprives us of players although I wouldnt criticise the Gaa as I think its great that we have a huge interest in our national games. Other european countries dont have this problem. They dont have sports that can actually compete with football.

everdead.ie

Also forgot to mention you never hear of scouts going to anywhere but Dublin and Cork.

pablomakaveli

If Blatters 5 + 6 rule is ever brought in our national team is screwed.

Regardless i think it's important to have options for young players to develop in Ireland rather than going to England. For that to happen the FAI and LOI will need to develop an infrastructure for this.

therecklessone

From what I can see, there are too many people involved in the game in this country trying to protect their own little patch, and too few interested in an integrated approach to developing young talent.

Is there any joined up thinking between schoolboy and league levels?

There should be root and branch reform of the game in this country, starting at a very young age we should be concentrating on developing skills not fitness levels. Kids should not be afraid of having a ball at their feet, and we should stop glorifying the role of "the big lad up front", and the obsession with "win at all costs".

I remember talking to a few English mates after Spain beat England in their recent friendly. They wondered why they couldn't develop a Xavi or Villa, I pointed out that when they were 12rs old their English equivalents were marginalised, in favour of the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Davies of this world.

The money isn't there, but I'd like to see a centre of excellence established. Pay for the best in coaching, nutrition, medical cover, but provide an education as well. Say 50 kids in every year from 14-17. For the year from 17-18 I'd farm the kids out to LOI sides, have a draft system to allow the lowest ranked sides get the better players. Let the FAI pay their wages, put them all on the same salary, and continue to provide support to the players through the centre. Having served their year each player would be free to do their own thing.

LuckyLloyd

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

It is a bloody miracle we can be competitive in any sport considering the death hold the GAA has on young kids in this country trying to stifle their potential to represent their country in any other sports. Apart from our relatively small population, this to me explains why we are so average at football - our potential world-class players are mucking about in the "passionate" encounter between two parishes in a godforsaken rural Leitrim field in a pointless grudge match.

Yeah, much worse use of their time than sending them over to an English youth academy so that they can probably return with their tail between their legs a few years later huh?

LuckyLloyd

therecklessone wrote: »

From what I can see, there are too many people involved in the game in this country trying to protect their own little patch, and too few interested in an integrated approach to developing young talent.

Is there any joined up thinking between schoolboy and league levels?

There should be root and branch reform of the game in this country, starting at a very young age we should be concentrating on developing skills not fitness levels. Kids should not be afraid of having a ball at their feet, and we should stop glorifying the role of "the big lad up front", and the obsession with "win at all costs".

I remember talking to a few English mates after Spain beat England in their recent friendly. They wondered why they couldn't develop a Xavi or Villa, I pointed out that when they were 12rs old their English equivalents were marginalised, in favour of the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Davies of this world.

The money isn't there, but I'd like to see a centre of excellence established. Pay for the best in coaching, nutrition, medical cover, but provide an education as well. Say 50 kids in every year from 14-17. For the year from 17-18 I'd farm the kids out to LOI sides, have a draft system to allow the lowest ranked sides get the better players. Let the FAI pay their wages, put them all on the same salary, and continue to provide support to the players through the centre. Having served their year each player would be free to do their own thing.

Ding Ding Ding

Of course, things have improved to some extent over the past few years. I remember playing U9's 11 - a - side football on the very same pitch we played on as U14's - the same team the Men's team used. :rolleyes:

These days, kids aren't playing on full size pitches until much later, and it helps some. Also, the increase in UEFA licensing and other coaching courses will be sure to seep down the ranks over the coming years. And a friend of mine who recently got his B license has had nothing but good things to say about the ethos behind the courses (i.e. worry about making them better rather than making them win).

But of course, there is a long, long way to go. Marginalizing the influence of the mouthy, bullying parents and 'coaches' living their lives through their 12 - 15 kids from the sideline is a necessity. And something that is very difficult to do.

micks

therecklessone wrote: »

From what I can see, there are too many people involved in the game in this country trying to protect their own little patch, and too few interested in an integrated approach to developing young talent.

Is there any joined up thinking between schoolboy and league levels?

There should be root and branch reform of the game in this country, starting at a very young age we should be concentrating on developing skills not fitness levels. Kids should not be afraid of having a ball at their feet, and we should stop glorifying the role of "the big lad up front", and the obsession with "win at all costs".

I remember talking to a few English mates after Spain beat England in their recent friendly. They wondered why they couldn't develop a Xavi or Villa, I pointed out that when they were 12rs old their English equivalents were marginalised, in favour of the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Davies of this world.

The money isn't there, but I'd like to see a centre of excellence established. Pay for the best in coaching, nutrition, medical cover, but provide an education as well. Say 50 kids in every year from 14-17. For the year from 17-18 I'd farm the kids out to LOI sides, have a draft system to allow the lowest ranked sides get the better players. Let the FAI pay their wages, put them all on the same salary, and continue to provide support to the players through the centre. Having served their year each player would be free to do their own thing.

There is a lot of reasons why we have the exodus of talent annually across the water. There is little alternative at the moment the LOI clubs are too far behind for them to be the elite schoolboy clubs, LOI clubs should of had youth set-ups in place decades ago not trying to catch up in the last few years, maybe if this happens staying at home with Bohs etc would be a viable option to going to lower clubs, obviously wouldn't compete with EPL clubs but might stem the tide
The FAI for their part have set up a centre of excellence of sorts - the Emerging Talents Programe - not sure how many but there's 3 in Dublin and I think at least 1 in every county so they are looking around the country it may not be up there with the english or french but its a start, I believe they aim to have a full time academy in Abbotstown not sure though.
The GAH has little or no impact on soccer if anything the reverse is true!
Underage teams now have a much greater spread across the country than previously facilities of some clubs down that country are on a par or surpass the GAH neighbours.

Lastly for a country of our size we're punching above our weight for years compared to similar populations

micks

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Ding Ding Ding

Of course, things have improved to some extent over the past few years. I remember playing U9's 11 - a - side football on the very same pitch we played on as U14's - the same team the Men's team used. :rolleyes:

These days, kids aren't playing on full size pitches until much later, and it helps some. Also, the increase in UEFA licensing and other coaching courses will be sure to seep down the ranks over the coming years. And a friend of mine who recently got his B license has had nothing but good things to say about the ethos behind the courses (i.e. worry about making them better rather than making them win).

But of course, there is a long, long way to go. Marginalizing the influence of the mouthy, bullying parents and 'coaches' living their lives through their 12 - 15 kids from the sideline is a necessity. And something that is very difficult to do.

Had to laugh recently when sky spoke about improving the grassroots in england and thought it would be a good idea to have kids playing 7-a-side, the 9-a-side then 11-a-side which the FAI brought in about 10-15 years ago!

bohsman

Great post therecklessone, fully agreed.

Lloyd as far as Bohs go that seems to be the new ethos aswell, play football not win. We are also advertising for a Youth Development Officer at the moment, candidate needs a minimum of UEFA A license, if the right person comes in and utilises DCU it would be brilliant.

LostinBlanch

therecklessone wrote: »

From what I can see, there are too many people involved in the game in this country trying to protect their own little patch, and too few interested in an integrated approach to developing young talent.

Is there any joined up thinking between schoolboy and league levels?

There should be root and branch reform of the game in this country, starting at a very young age we should be concentrating on developing skills not fitness levels. Kids should not be afraid of having a ball at their feet, and we should stop glorifying the role of "the big lad up front", and the obsession with "win at all costs".

Nail on the head here. It's all about developing the skills from about age 8 - 12 or so. As a united supporter I listen to Renee Meulensteen former Ajax youth coach now No 3 at United. For him it's about giving kids the ball, showing them how to do tricks and have fun while learning techniques and hardly realising they are learning at the same time. The physical development comes later, this is the time for fun and skills. If you don't get them at this age, it's often too late by the time you do get them. In one interview a couple of years ago Ferguson mentioned this and talked disparagingly of skills development in Ireland at the time.

luckylloyd wrote:

Of course, things have improved to some extent over the past few years. I remember playing U9's 11 - a - side football on the very same pitch we played on as U14's - the same team the Men's team used.

These days, kids aren't playing on full size pitches until much later, and it helps some. Also, the increase in UEFA licensing and other coaching courses will be sure to seep down the ranks over the coming years. And a friend of mine who recently got his B license has had nothing but good things to say about the ethos behind the courses (i.e. worry about making them better rather than making them win).

But of course, there is a long, long way to go. Marginalizing the influence of the mouthy, bullying parents and 'coaches' living their lives through their 12 - 15 kids from the sideline is a necessity. And something that is very difficult to do.

That is the big thing. It's the fcuking selfish a**holes of parents or coaches* living vicariously through their kids because they couldn't make it that are the problem. They are doing as much, if not more damage to kids as going away to England and coming back a couple of years later with their tail between their legs. That's why the likes of Leinster junior league etc are more likely to produce more Gary Dohertys than Damien Duffs. I'm using an extreme example here but I think you get what I mean. FWIW I think it's fair to say that Duff developed in spite of any system, his innate skills would have come out anyway. But how many players nearly as good as Duff are / were lost to the game because of undue pressure from selfish adults?


*Not all of them are but there are enough bad ones out there doing damage.

anonymous_joe

therecklessone wrote: »

From what I can see, there are too many people involved in the game in this country trying to protect their own little patch, and too few interested in an integrated approach to developing young talent.

Is there any joined up thinking between schoolboy and league levels?

There should be root and branch reform of the game in this country, starting at a very young age we should be concentrating on developing skills not fitness levels. Kids should not be afraid of having a ball at their feet, and we should stop glorifying the role of "the big lad up front", and the obsession with "win at all costs".

I remember talking to a few English mates after Spain beat England in their recent friendly. They wondered why they couldn't develop a Xavi or Villa, I pointed out that when they were 12rs old their English equivalents were marginalised, in favour of the Kevin Nolans and Kevin Davies of this world.

The money isn't there, but I'd like to see a centre of excellence established. Pay for the best in coaching, nutrition, medical cover, but provide an education as well. Say 50 kids in every year from 14-17. For the year from 17-18 I'd farm the kids out to LOI sides, have a draft system to allow the lowest ranked sides get the better players. Let the FAI pay their wages, put them all on the same salary, and continue to provide support to the players through the centre. Having served their year each player would be free to do their own thing.

Good post.

Kids shouldn't be playing to win so early, they should be trying to have fun. Skill should be more important than anything else until their teenagers.

LuckyLloyd

The interesting thing is that whenever the topic gets brought up on here or amongst my friends people can see the light. They understand that the time to improve their technical skills is before they are 14 or 15. That if you get an older teenager who is comfortable controlling, dribbling, passing and shooting the ball but poor athletically and clueless tactically, it is an infinitely preferable situation to having a kid who is on the opposite end of the scale in terms of strengths and weaknesses.

And yet, the problem is who jumps first? If Lourdes or Crumlin or whoever decided tomorrow that they were going to completely change the way they train and prepare kids from age 8 to 16 the quality of kids they get to work with would nosedive dramatically. Why? Because their teams would be getting smashed in terms of results. And parents would send their kids elsewhere because the culture we are raised to understand is one of winning, and parents (and kids don't forget!) would find it impossible to buy into the idea that their kids are in better shape for the long haul of their footballing careers when they are losing 6 - 0 every week!

micks

The thing about these sort of posts is that they always go down the FAI should do this,that etc
Take a look at
THIS The FAI program emphasises all that is being posted fun skills etc
But its not the most important thing for managers unfortunately

The FAI has also brought in 2 concepts that will help a huge amount if kept going - the Futsal winter leagues for small sided teams and the new innovation "Dont X the line" where team get more points for sportsmanship and spectator behaviour than winning the game.
Many efforts have been made to remove competitiveness but none have been implemented successfully
My son play U10 9 a side SDFL and his team has a squad of 16 which is huge for that size team. But he manager in fairness tries to give every child at least 15-20 minutes a game. It was interesting to play the runaway league leader who had onl brought on 1 sub when they went 3 goals clear with 5 min left and they left 3 others on the line!

whatawaster

every league of Ireland club should have an academy of some sort. Better links with schoolboy clubs. Better links with schools. Bottom line is we need to keep most of the talent here, at least until they're 20/21. Not the Damien Duff's or Robbie Keane's. That's probably unrealistic. But the Kevin Doyle's, Shane Long's etc.
It's a bit of a chicken/egg situation, but the league simply has to make itself more attractive to kids, obviously in the long term an improved product will achieve this, but i believe something can be done in the short term too:
Each club should have links with the local primary and secondary schools. The players, certainly the professional ones, should be MADE visit them as part of their contracts. Work with the kids, train them, get them excited. They will nag their parents who will bring them along to games (i believe it should be free for U-16s).

I believe an American-style scholarship system would be good. Clubs could have links with third level institutions, whereby players could go to college between the ages of 18 and 21, and play and train with the clubs in their spare time. Most clubs have a reasonably nearby third level institute and it would be a fantastic incentive for talented footballers to stay here rather than risk it all in England. I'm not sure how much this scheme would cost, but perhaps the FAI/Government/Clubs could share the burden. Everyone would benefit from it. Most of these kids, even the ones who eventually make it in England, will never make a fortune from the game. It would be wonderful for them then to have a qualification to fall back on when they hang up their boots.

Everything that has been said before - improved coaching, improved facilities, focus on the technical rather than the physical, and a move away from the "results culture" are all crucial. Long term every LOI club need to improve their facilities, become more family friendly.

I have absolutely no faith that any of this will happen in the forseeable future. I don't think there is a real will to change things from those at the top. But i'm 100% certain that this country can sustain a good, solid professional league if it is planned, marketed, organised and regulated correctly. Marketing may be the most important factor of all.

everdead.ie

I think we should have an under 21 rule like the spl where 3 players in the matchday squad must be under 21 thus encouraging clubs to train younger players and give them actual experience.

LostinBlanch

Waster,

re the links with 3rd level institutions scholarships etc this was the kind of thing I heard Brian Kerr talk about in 97 after we had won two European Championships. He was all for following the Norwegian model* of development; and while small steps have been made, there's still a lot more to do. Sectional interests and the win at all costs mentality in meaningless underage league games work against this.

*i.e. keep the youngsters in Ireland until they are at least 18 if not 20, concentrate on skills and then let them go abroad. If they went abroad before that they weren't picked for the national team.

redout

whatawaster wrote: »

every league of Ireland club should have an academy of some sort.

Put simply man they dont half the money to fund it. I had a friend with Bohs youth teams a few years back and they got rid of the youth teams if I remember because they couldnt keep them going.

whatawaster

redout wrote: »

Put simply man they dont half the money to fund it. I had a friend with Bohs youth teams a few years back and they got rid of the youth teams if I remember because they couldnt keep them going.

i'd love to know how much it costs to run one. It doesn't have to be like a top european one with all the trimmings. It can be as simple as just an astroturf pitch and the right coaches.
Taking Drogheda United, my local team as an example, i'd rather they had pumped their money into such a system rather than paying the likes of Ollie Cahill several grand a week to laze around the pitch. I think most clubs could do it if it was made a priority.

micks

redout wrote: »

Put simply man they dont half the money to fund it. I had a friend with Bohs youth teams a few years back and they got rid of the youth teams if I remember because they couldnt keep them going.

Yet schoolboy clubs up and down the country can run them? There at least 10
full size artificial pitches in Dublin - not one owned by an LOI club. At the very least the LOI clubs could try get affiliated to these clubs with the facilities. There is a lot of clubs in and around Dublin with the facilities and infrastructures to run successful academies and who knows in time the easy thing will be for them to progress thru the A championship and beyond. Several teams in the LSL senior division - Crumlin, Malahide, Wayside etc could easily make the "jump" to A Championship and would have a top level conveyor belt from Under 7 to LOI.Maybe I'm wrong but I reckon that's what the FAI are looking for is a League system similar to non-league in England where there's a promotion route to the top. All the Dublin LOI clubs AFAIK have no real say in "their" schoolboy set up and none that I'm aware of have their own training facilities and definitely not of the standard of the 3 above mentioned LSL clubs. The LOI clubs are decades behind the main players in the DDSL and that the main problem - there is no real option for these kids to stay at home for.

bohsman

micks wrote: »

All the Dublin LOI clubs AFAIK have no real say in "their" schoolboy set up and none that I'm aware of have their own training facilities and definitely not of the standard of the 3 above mentioned LSL clubs.

Not sure what you mean by that, Bohs have a youth director and are looking for a youth development officer who will work with Pat Fenlon on the youth teams. 100% their own youth set up.

And again I really dont know why you feel so strongly about clubs owning their own facilities, around Europe plenty of huge teams play in stadiums not owned by them.

micks

bohsman wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by that, Bohs have a youth director and are looking for a youth development officer who will work with Pat Fenlon on the youth teams. 100% their own youth set up.

And again I really dont know why you feel so strongly about clubs owning their own facilities, around Europe plenty of huge teams play in stadiums not owned by them.

Yet in Ireland we have LOI clubs who are in existance for decades and don't own anything?
How many teams were in Bohs youth teams 20 years ago?
I am talking about training facilities, not stadia. Bohs and other LOI clubs are around decades yet for a peanuts (in terms of long term spending) they could of had some sort of academy set up. If you dont own the facilities you cant have a longterm plan can you? The DDSL has been one of the top schoolboy league in Europe and should be dominated by the likes of Bohs etc A bit of thought and insight would have set up the few Dublin based LOI clubs with a very bright future producing players for them selves and "exporting" to the EPL and getting well paid for it. How much is this use of DCU going to cost annually ? How much have LOI clubs spent down through the years on training facilities? They seem too interested in getting through each season and not looking around the corner. I am not just hung up on owning the facilities but IMO with the LOI it always seems to be someone else's fault Nurturing Irelands talent seems to be the FAI's problem yet very few LOI clubs had a schoolboy set up before it became a licensing requirement.

bohsman

From what I gather the schoolboys could still be run at a profit after the DCU linkup, I say linkup and not rental btw - DCU logos on all bohs schoolboy jerseys etc, scholarships available, not easy to find room for training grounds and youth academy in Phibsboro.

SectionF

Good to see this depth of discussion on the forum. The lack of quality that we are seeing in the international team is directly related to our system, unchanged in essence since the 1970s, of sending children to England to 'make it big'.

This hit and hope culture, with dozens if not hundreds of failures for every Duff, Reid and Ireland, and hopelessly outdated now that there is global competition for places on EPL teams, still pervades all of Irish football. It is a large part of the reason for the invisibility of LoI on most football people's radars: domestic football simply isn't seen as a progression from schoolboy level, and often is represented as a graveyard for failed players.

And it completely warps competition at schoolboy level. Schoolboy football in Ireland is a quite insanely vicious, cannibalistic system where for many coaches ultimate success is a kid being sent across the water and where, apparently, the interests of the players as a group come last. Go to any of the 'top' schoolboy clubs' games and take in the atmosphere. It's not pretty, and you wonder if anyone is actually enjoying it apart from a handful of burly bruisers each of whom is convinced they are the next Rooney.

Most coaches are unsung heroes who make huge sacrifices, but some are selfish ego-trippers whose fantasies feed those of the kids in their charge. It is sad seeing our football role models and leaders in Ireland wearing Liverpool, ManU and Celtic tracksuits and reinforcing dreams doomed to failure.

The game in Ireland has been committing, and continues to commit, slow suicide, with pointless animosity between schoolboy and senior levels. As long as we continue to play this stubborn and ignorant game we will deserve to be also-rans playing the ugliest football on the world stage and hoping for the rub of the green every time we encounter opposition with a bit of class.

whatawaster

How are clubs now compensated for losing players young? Is it a percentage of every transfer, or just the first transfer? Or decided by a panel?

LightningBolt

I'd be in favour of a system whereby players are grouped into teams geographically. 12 academy teams throughout the country, each with a squad of 15-20 players. Split off into groups of six and play each other twice. The top three from each league go into a new group with the other division and and play each other once more. That'd be 15 games at every single age level from U-14's - U18's and would involve the best of the best playing against each other. You'd presume a fair number of them would be gone for youth internationals so could tailor the league fixtures around them. Once they finish U-18 they'd go to LOI clubs where they'd join their A squad (U-21) and spend the next three years playing ball/going to college etc. If they're any use they'll be kept on. Would leave them much better prepared for life after football if they all managed to get a worthwhile education out of it.

It'd be a kick in the teeth for the schoolboy clubs but players need to kept here instead of being farmed off to England.

el rabitos

everdead.ie wrote: »

what must we do in the future to insure we nurture talent in Ireland to propell the national team forward..

maybe some of our "talent" should learn a language and move abroad, try being one of the nasty foreigners that are infultrating the premiership and thus, our's and england to a lesser extents national team.

the premiership is home to the best of the best in european football, the odds of a player of such calibre coming from a country our size is not great. thats not to say we cant produce a number of good players.

however, if some promising youngsters were to take a chance and move to say portugal, holland, some of the lower leagues in spain, i think the chance to progress to a better level would be more achievable than sitting on the bench or in the reserves.

just my 2c

whatawaster

LightningBolt wrote: »

I'd be in favour of a system whereby players are grouped into teams geographically. 12 academy teams throughout the country, each with a squad of 15-20 players. Split off into groups of six and play each other twice. The top three from each league go into a new group with the other division and and play each other once more. That'd be 15 games at every single age level from U-14's - U18's and would involve the best of the best playing against each other. You'd presume a fair number of them would be gone for youth internationals so could tailor the league fixtures around them.

It'd be a kick in the teeth for the schoolboy clubs but players need to kept here instead of being farmed off to England.

Would it not be easier to have each club designated their own geographical/population area. That way there could be a natural feeder system from youth to domestic league level.

Either way i think the current schoolboy system needs a kick. I'm sure there's been great work done at that level, but it's not really helping Irish soccer the way it should.

Each clubs academy should be able to select the best from the schools and clubs in their designated area, while maintaining links with each of them. There must be clear links from top to bottom.

whatawaster

el rabitos wrote: »

maybe some of our "talent" should learn a language and move abroad, try being one of the nasty foreigners that are infultrating the premiership and thus, our's and england to a lesser extents national team.

the premiership is home to the best of the best in european football, the odds of a player of such calibre coming from a country our size is not great. thats not to say we cant produce a number of good players.

however, if some promising youngsters were to take a chance and move to say portugal, holland, some of the lower leagues in spain, i think the chance to progress to a better level would be more achievable than sitting on the bench or in the reserves.

just my 2c

Why would that be desirable in any way? Why not let them stay here until they're 21, learn the right skills here with the right coaches and the right system, get an education, and stay with their family until they are mature enough to move on? I'm not unrealistic, the best are still going to go abroad.

But moving to Spain or Portugal would be an even greater culture shock. They'd also be found out technically there in a way they probably won't in England.

el rabitos

whatawaster wrote: »

Why would that be desirable in any way? Why not let them stay here until they're 21, learn the right skills here with the right coaches and the right system, get an education, and stay with their family until they are mature enough to move on? I'm not unrealistic, the best are still going to go abroad.

But moving to Spain or Portugal would be an even greater culture shock. They'd also be found out technically there in a way they probably won't in England.

poor lambs. what about messi moving to barcelona at like 13 or countless other "foreigners" moving all over the place to learn the game and progress.

if your not willing to make the sarcrifices then whats this thread all about? to compete with the best you have to prepare like the rest. hey, that rhymes.

whatawaster

el rabitos wrote: »

poor lambs. what about messi moving to barcelona at like 13 or countless other "foreigners" moving all over the place to learn the game and progress.

if your not willing to make the sarcrifices then whats this thread all about? to compete with the best you have to prepare like the rest. hey, that rhymes.

Why would we want our best players to go to Barcelona? The only way our League is ever going to get better is if our best young players at least develop here. To sustain a professional league in which they can thrive we'll need money. This money has to come from increased attendances (probably a function of better facilities and a better football product) and transfer fees (which will increase if we nurture and sell on our best players). It is a bit of a catch 22 situation, but we have to start somewhere.
To be honest, even though i wouldn't call myself a great loyal supporter of the league of Ireland, it would give me more satisfaction for it to be succesful
than to see Ireland reach a world cup. Though i do believe if the league improves IN THE RIGHT WAY, then the national team will be better off in the long run.

SectionF

el rabitos wrote: »

try being one of the nasty foreigners that are infultrating the [geography]English[/geography] premiership

This is irony, right?

el rabitos

SectionF wrote: »

This is irony, right?

did the word nasty give it away

SectionF

el rabitos wrote: »

did the word nasty give it away

It did rather suggest that, but then your analysis continued, seemingly on the level!

Xavi6

I joined my local team aged 7 and stayed there until I was 20. In that time I learned a lot of things about junior football in Ireland, and I'm sure everyone else has experienced the same -

1. Kids should not play on a full size pitch until they are at least 14. There was no such thing as 7 a side football until the year below me so consequently I never got to play it, and it would have benefitted me massively.

2. Being 'trained' by Dads/volunteers is simply not acceptable. Every coach should have even a basic qualification. I learned more from watching tv than I did at training for the first 6 or 7 years. Also, more emphasis needs to be placed on proper drills. Showing up and just playing an all-in game for an hour benefits no one.

3. Lose the 'winning' mentality. Over here in Oz they are putting a massive emphasis on kids playing simply for fun. There are leagues and they are graded, but results aren't kept on record. While managers still want to win, they don't do it at the expense of good football or enjoyment. The standard is really picking up as a result.

4. Facilities need to be better. My junior club still doesn't have a club house, despite being in existence for 25 years. Granted, they did get an all weather pitch about 4 or 5 years ago but that is a luxury most clubs don't have. No team should have a weekend off due to bad weather if possible. If pitches are unplayable have interclub friendlies or extra training on the all weather pitches.

They might sound like basic things but to me they are simple fundamentals that aren't being done. If they were then you might notice gradual improvements without having to do anything massively drastic.

el rabitos

look, at the end of the day, there is no absolute right answer here.

there are 2 issues, in my opinion.

1. the league needs promotion, to increase crowds, money, infrastructure. all of these go hand in hand and serve to help the national team in the long run.

2. developing players.

the problem lies in finding a balance. you want the players to reach their potential, while not taking away one of the potential attractions of the league itself.

the league itself needs investment and maybe restructuring. but thats a whole other issue i'd leave to more invested people.

purely from a players perspective at the moment, as i suggested above, moving to another country as many kids all over the world do right now is the best option. there are better coaches, better facilitys.

obviously the premiership or scottish prem are the nicest options geographically, but in terms of improving and getting real opportunitys to play and develop, the best idea would be to move futher a field to some of the leagues i mentioned.

anyway, its not a black & white situation, theres a balance to be found and i dont think its an overnight fix.

DSB

The future of the international team, lies in the future of the League Of Ireland, so if anyone has an interest in the national team and Irish footballers, and don't already go to games, they should stop moaning as to the great training Irish players need, and start help with creating the facilities to do so. Schoolboy clubs will never again create a great Irish team, the Premierships muliticulturalism will ensure that. And watching Liverpool and United on tv week only, will never fix the problem either.

micks

SectionF wrote: »

Good to see this depth of discussion on the forum. The lack of quality that we are seeing in the international team is directly related to our system, unchanged in essence since the 1970s, of sending children to England to 'make it big'.

This hit and hope culture, with dozens if not hundreds of failures for every Duff, Reid and Ireland, and hopelessly outdated now that there is global competition for places on EPL teams, still pervades all of Irish football. It is a large part of the reason for the invisibility of LoI on most football people's radars: domestic football simply isn't seen as a progression from schoolboy level, and often is represented as a graveyard for failed players.

And it completely warps competition at schoolboy level. Schoolboy football in Ireland is a quite insanely vicious, cannibalistic system where for many coaches ultimate success is a kid being sent across the water and where, apparently, the interests of the players as a group come last. Go to any of the 'top' schoolboy clubs' games and take in the atmosphere. It's not pretty, and you wonder if anyone is actually enjoying it apart from a handful of burly bruisers each of whom is convinced they are the next Rooney.

Most coaches are unsung heroes who make huge sacrifices, but some are selfish ego-trippers whose fantasies feed those of the kids in their charge. It is sad seeing our football role models and leaders in Ireland wearing Liverpool, ManU and Celtic tracksuits and reinforcing dreams doomed to failure.

The game in Ireland has been committing, and continues to commit, slow suicide, with pointless animosity between schoolboy and senior levels. As long as we continue to play this stubborn and ignorant game we will deserve to be also-rans playing the ugliest football on the world stage and hoping for the rub of the green every time we encounter opposition with a bit of class.

Yes there is too much win at all costs attitude and get players to england at the top table, but I still think that the LOI clubs should be doing more to entice players to them. There is no reason why the top DDSL leagues shouldn't be made up of Pats,Rovers,Bohs,UCD,Bray,Drogheda etc every age group. Take Bohs not far from Kevins - Kevins have 4 or 5 U10 teams Bohs have 1, Kevins have 3 teams in highers leagues than Bohs 1 team why?

Every schoolboy club should have a progression/route to its nearest LOI Club and then EPL if necessary. All you have to do is look at the EPL to see the benefits of a successful academy then there is Ajax yet until recent years majority of LOI clubs didn't bother. No point blaming the DDSL clubs or FAI the top level domestically took underage football for granted for decades and now are trying to catch up .

anonymous_joe

micks wrote: »

Yes there is too much win at all costs attitude and get players to england at the top table, but I still think that the LOI clubs should be doing more to entice players to them. There is no reason why the top DDSL leagues shouldn't be made up of Pats,Rovers,Bohs,UCD,Bray,Drogheda etc every age group. Take Bohs not far from Kevins - Kevins have 4 or 5 U10 teams Bohs have 1, Kevins have 3 teams in highers leagues than Bohs 1 team why?

Every schoolboy club should have a progression/route to its nearest LOI Club and then EPL if necessary. All you have to do is look at the EPL to see the benefits of a successful academy then there is Ajax yet until recent years majority of LOI clubs didn't bother. No point blaming the DDSL clubs or FAI the top level domestically took underage football for granted for decades and now are trying to catch up .

Football's conservative, and no-one was arsed, in case it effected them negatively.

micks

whatawaster wrote: »

How are clubs now compensated for losing players young? Is it a percentage of every transfer, or just the first transfer? Or decided by a panel?

There is a formula - and a term, cant remember but basically there is compensation and a percentage of future transfer fees dependant on age/time with club.

micks

LightningBolt wrote: »

I'd be in favour of a system whereby players are grouped into teams geographically. 12 academy teams throughout the country, each with a squad of 15-20 players. Split off into groups of six and play each other twice. The top three from each league go into a new group with the other division and and play each other once more. That'd be 15 games at every single age level from U-14's - U18's and would involve the best of the best playing against each other. You'd presume a fair number of them would be gone for youth internationals so could tailor the league fixtures around them. Once they finish U-18 they'd go to LOI clubs where they'd join their A squad (U-21) and spend the next three years playing ball/going to college etc. If they're any use they'll be kept on. Would leave them much better prepared for life after football if they all managed to get a worthwhile education out of it.

It'd be a kick in the teeth for the schoolboy clubs but players need to kept here instead of being farmed off to England.

There is the Emerging talent programme
which caters for kids up to U16 or 17, you have Fas soccer courses which have been around donkeys (I think Roy Keane done one) and these are linked/sponsored by LOI clubs

Again as i said earlier the LOI clubs have to be more involved in schoolboy football

PHB

There's no way you can ever stop the best of the best going abroad. If we have a Messi in Ireland, United and Liverpool and others will get them. But the fact of it is that 5/6 of the kids who join United/Liverpool/Arsenals youth academies at the age of 13 fail.

When they fail, they come back to Ireland, and give up. Some players will be good enough to make it, but the 5/6, who are probably better than the vast majority of players who don't go abroad but work their way up through the ranks in Ireland, end up massively wasted. Sure some of them will go back into LoI but not a huge amount.

IMO the first thing the FAI need to do is set up a proper system of how the exodus to England will be managed. Ensure that those who are returning home have a fantastic chance at re-integration.

Then after that, they need to create a situation where a player would actually want to stay in Dublin, like in Holland. The majority of Ajax's players come from Utrecht and Amsterdam, and they have a total of 1 million population to choose from, the same amount as in Dublin. We need to establish a youth academy that can actually compete.

But to actually create a youth academy where players can develop, not just up to the age of 16-17, you need a league where they can compete at a fairly high competitive level.

---

I think the point you'd make about Ireland right now is that we do fairly well for a nation of our size of producing top players. Our first 11 for example is a pretty darn good team if you ask me. However our squad depth is utterly utterly shocking. That's because the 1/6 that are making it are getting into top quality systems, and everyone else is getting hugely wasted. The 1/6 is enough to maintain the national team at its current level, but to move on, we need to do better with the 5/6.

Also we need to better steal players from the north. Johnny Evans for example.

micks

Xavi6 wrote: »

I joined my local team aged 7 and stayed there until I was 20. In that time I learned a lot of things about junior football in Ireland, and I'm sure everyone else has experienced the same -

1. Kids should not play on a full size pitch until they are at least 14. There was no such thing as 7 a side football until the year below me so consequently I never got to play it, and it would have benefitted me massively.

Currently in Dublin its 7 a side up to U9, 9 a side for U10 and 11 a side onwards but introduced this year was 5 rolling on/off subs for U11. Defo could do with expanding small sided game. But there is already a drop off in participation levels after U13 or so having small sided games to U14 may see teams not coping with the extra players required if you get what i mean.

Xavi6 wrote: »

2. Being 'trained' by Dads/volunteers is simply not acceptable. Every coach should have even a basic qualification. I learned more from watching tv than I did at training for the first 6 or 7 years. Also, more emphasis needs to be placed on proper drills. Showing up and just playing an all-in game for an hour benefits no one.

While the "unqualified Dad" is almost a thing of the past its almost impossible to get coaches unattached to teams to commit the required time yes for some teams but not for all. We have 28 teams in our club all are qualified, some with KS1 most with at least KS2 and some up to UEFA A, currently 3 UEFA A coaches in the club.

Xavi6 wrote: »

3. Lose the 'winning' mentality. Over here in Oz they are putting a massive emphasis on kids playing simply for fun. There are leagues and they are graded, but results aren't kept on record. While managers still want to win, they don't do it at the expense of good football or enjoyment. The standard is really picking up as a result.

Very difficult to do we have a rule in the club that every kid has to play every game up to U10, they cant be left on the line no matter what the score. We also plan to have bigger 7 a side squads ( 12-14) so they have the numbers when they go 11 a side. One year we didn't give out player of the year trophies, just a medal and a cert to all kids - the kids went mad. Its not just parents and coaches that are competitive.Its ridiculous when U8's beaten 10 -0 and the leagues dont re-adjust the teams to their correct level. The "dont X the Line" is good and hopefully will be rolled out to more leagues after this year. Ideally tournaments between clubs that mean nothing would be great

Xavi6 wrote: »

4. Facilities need to be better. My junior club still doesn't have a club house, despite being in existence for 25 years. Granted, they did get an all weather pitch about 4 or 5 years ago but that is a luxury most clubs don't have. No team should have a weekend off due to bad weather if possible. If pitches are unplayable have interclub friendlies or extra training on the all weather pitches.

They might sound like basic things but to me they are simple fundamentals that aren't being done. If they were then you might notice gradual improvements without having to do anything massively drastic.

Facilities have improved a huge amount and could go further. There are several full size artificial pitches around dublin and several council facilities have come on in recent times. I think there's a plan to put in something like 8 more full size artificial pitches around dublin between the leagues/councils/FAI which will improve things further

whatawaster

micks wrote: »

There is a formula - and a term, cant remember but basically there is compensation and a percentage of future transfer fees dependant on age/time with club.

Could potentially be very lucrative to LOI clubs then.

PHB you may be right and it might be impossible to stop the likes of Keane and Duff going to the big english clubs. But surely if we have some sort of system whereby they become attached to LOI clubs early then they will be adequately compensated and can re-invest that money in player development.

It will be very interesting to see how this Uefa ruling pans out. If players can't move abroad before 18 it would present a great opportunity, which the LOI will doubtless blow.

civis_liberalis

everdead.ie wrote: »

I genuinely don't believe it is our relevent size compared to these other countries look at croatia and portugal.

Croatia is fair enough, but Portugal has 2 or 3 times the population of Ireland and don't have GAA or rugby competing for participants like we have here. Croatia would have a good spead of people playing different sports, although soccer is well out in front, in terms of participants.

civis_liberalis

micks wrote: »

There is the Emerging talent programme

Oooh! Big shiny PDF. The FAI love those. All is saved now.

EDIT: I have read the PDF and while the programme is well put together, I doubt much within it has been actioned.