Nurturing Irelands young talent

SectionF

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Oooh! Big shiny PDF. The FAI love those. All is saved now.

EDIT: I have read the PDF and while the programme is well put together, I doubt much within it has been actioned.

PDFs are great. So are consultants. Look at the sheer genius of Genesis in extracting fees from the FAI for their 'analysis' of Irish football a few years back.

As to the reason why LoI clubs don't do enough to foster schoolboy football, it's quite simple. They're broke, and they're getting more broke all the time.

That's principally because the Irish sporting public -- while demanding magical success from the boys in green at one end of the scale and a proper system for the kids at the other -- refuses to support senior football. It's not about making a few organizational tweaks and replacing a strong outfit like Kevin's with a LoI schoolboy section: it's about changing the entire culture of how the sport is represented and viewed in our country.

whatawaster

SectionF wrote: »

PDFs are great. So are consultants. Look at the sheer genius of Genesis in extracting fees from the FAI for their 'analysis' of Irish football a few years back.

As to the reason why LoI clubs don't do enough to foster schoolboy football, it's quite simple. They're broke, and they're getting more broke all the time.

That's principally because the Irish sporting public -- while demanding magical success from the boys in green at one end of the scale and a proper system for the kids at the other -- refuses to support senior football. It's not about making a few organizational tweaks and replacing a strong outfit like Kevin's with a LoI schoolboy section: it's about changing the entire culture of how the sport is represented and viewed in our country.

As to the reason why LoI clubs don't do enough to foster schoolboy football, it's quite simple. They're broke, and they're getting more broke all the time.
Why are they broke and getting more and more broke? For many of them it’s because they refuse to live within their means. The likes of Drogheda United would rather pay obscene wages (comparatively) to players who didn’t give a crap about the club like Ollie Cahill, Stuart Byrne and Jason Gavin, wages they probably wouldn’t get near at the level they’d be at in England – instead of focusing on youth.
Yes they aren’t getting enough people in the turnstiles, but they can’t just sit back and blame an apathetic Irish soccer public. They have to take some of the blame themselves. It’s the same with every product in every marketplace. Where there is competition, the onus is on the producer, not the consumer, to make their product attractive enough so it will sell.


That's principally because the Irish sporting public -- while demanding magical success from the boys in green at one end of the scale and a proper system for the kids at the other -- refuses to support senior football.
I agree with most of what you’re saying, but imo the league could be marketed far better than it is at the moment. In fact, I cannot remember for the life of me any time I’ve been exposed to any adverts or promotions of the league, whether by the league itself, or by the clubs.
*opens old leaving cert business textbook*
Remember the 4 p’s of marketing. The LOI could do well to abide by them.
Product: I think this probably has improved in recent years. Summer football probably helps. But it must get even better. Better technical coaching, better youth development, better training facilities would all help this.

Price: I’d be of the view that most LOI matches are too expensive. Particularly for kids. Getting more people in at a lower price should be a priority. They’ll be getting better value for money, so they’ll come back. They’ll buy shirts and other merchandising for Christmas.

Place: Grounds need to be improved. Wonderful to see Shamrock Rovers in their new stadium. It’s the kind of thing all clubs should ultimately aspire to in the long term. Unfortunately, most grounds I’ve been in were urine stenched hell holes. Not somewhere you want to bring the family for a day out. Might have got away with it in the 60s, but the modern football fan wants a degree of comfort.

Promotion: If I were running a LOI club and I had professional players on my books I would have it in their contracts that they have to do some work in local schools, with local clubs and in the local community. They may not quite be Ronaldo or Torres, but it will still get young people interested and excited about their local club. They’ll nag their parents. Some of them will be brought to games. Hopefully some of them will keep going to games long term.

*closes old leaving cert business textbook*

I realize some of this seems like a pipe-dream, but I really believe all of this is attainable and sustainable if the league were organized, regulated and most importantly marketed correctly.

SectionF

whatawaster wrote: »

Why are they broke and getting more and more broke? For many of them it’s because they refuse to live within their means. The likes of Drogheda United would rather pay obscene wages (comparatively) to players who didn’t give a crap about the club like Ollie Cahill, Stuart Byrne and Jason Gavin, wages they probably wouldn’t get near at the level they’d be at in England – instead of focusing on youth.

There's a new reality about now, and clubs are starting to cut their cloth to match their means. Unfortunately, since they are in survival mode, there simply aren't adequate resources to fund youth teams properly.

Yes they aren’t getting enough people in the turnstiles, but they can’t just sit back and blame an apathetic Irish soccer public. They have to take some of the blame themselves. It’s the same with every product in every marketplace. Where there is competition, the onus is on the producer, not the consumer, to make their product attractive enough so it will sell.

I understand that, but there is more going on than a simple product proposition. However, we are not talking about an ordinary 'product' here. It isn't an accident that 'Soccer' is one of the biggest forums on boards.ie, and baked beans, despite being a hugely successful product, isn't. If I viewed football as a product I would buy something other than LoI.

I agree with most of what you’re saying, but imo the league could be marketed far better than it is at the moment. In fact, I cannot remember for the life of me any time I’ve been exposed to any adverts or promotions of the league, whether by the league itself, or by the clubs.

Agreed. Though FAI has been ramping up marketing recently, to give (some of) them their due. See loi.ie.

*opens old leaving cert business textbook*
Remember the 4 p’s of marketing. The LOI could do well to abide by them.
Product: I think this probably has improved in recent years. Summer football probably helps. But it must get even better. Better technical coaching, better youth development, better training facilities would all help this.

Takes investment. Without a sugar daddy, the money isn't there. Most Irish super daddies buy into the obsession with British football and prefer to invest in places like Peterborough and Sunderland (remember them?).

Price: I’d be of the view that most LOI matches are too expensive. Particularly for kids. Getting more people in at a lower price should be a priority. They’ll be getting better value for money, so they’ll come back. They’ll buy shirts and other merchandising for Christmas.

Agreed on adult prices. Kids are €5 into Dalymount. If you have a kid or kids and understand what they can do to your wallet, that is the best value activity on the planet, other than breathing.

Place: Grounds need to be improved. Wonderful to see Shamrock Rovers in their new stadium. It’s the kind of thing all clubs should ultimately aspire to in the long term. Unfortunately, most grounds I’ve been in were urine stenched hell holes. Not somewhere you want to bring the family for a day out. Might have got away with it in the 60s, but the modern football fan wants a degree of comfort.

SRFC at Tallaght is a shining example of real local authority/government support for football. Jodi Stand at Dalymount is not Croke Park, but it is clean and comfortable.

Promotion: If I were running a LOI club and I had professional players on my books I would have it in their contracts that they have to do some work in local schools, with local clubs and in the local community. They may not quite be Ronaldo or Torres, but it will still get young people interested and excited about their local club. They’ll nag their parents. Some of them will be brought to games. Hopefully some of them will keep going to games long term.

They do at Bohs, and I'm sure also at other clubs. Most have community promotion officers organizing this.

I really believe all of this is attainable and sustainable if the league were organized, regulated and most importantly marketed correctly.

It's chicken and egg. The league can market its backside off but, with the brainwashing power of the sporting media, from Sky to RTE to The Irish Times, and the EPL/European Super League ranged against it, we will not get anywhere until we have a sea change in attitudes.

anonymous_joe

SectionF wrote: »

There's a new reality about now, and clubs are starting to cut their cloth to match their means. Unfortunately, since they are in survival mode, there simply aren't adequate resources to fund youth teams properly.

Short-term thinking leading to long-term losses sadly. It's unavoidable, but by ignoring youth development they are dooming themselves to more of the same.

I understand that, but there is more going on than a simple product proposition. However, we are not talking about an ordinary 'product' here. It isn't an accident that 'Soccer' is one of the biggest forums on boards.ie, and baked beans, despite being a hugely successful product, isn't. If I viewed football as a product I would buy something other than LoI.

Whoa whoa whoa, football is a product. You pay for it, you buy it, you consume it. It's a product, that's a word, it may not sound nice, but it's the truth. Football's very popular, for a variety of reasons. Geography being one of the most obvious, though not always, especially in this country.

Agreed. Though FAI has been ramping up marketing recently, to give (some of) them their due. See loi.ie.


Takes investment. Without a sugar daddy, the money isn't there. Most Irish super daddies buy into the obsession with British football and prefer to invest in places like Peterborough and Sunderland (remember them?).

ANd marketing needs to grow and grow and grow. If I think football, they need it to be LOI that comes to mind.

Agreed on adult prices. Kids are €5 into Dalymount. If you have a kid or kids and understand what they can do to your wallet, that is the best value activity on the planet, other than breathing.

Make it free, ffs. Get the kids in, get them excited, and they'll pay hand over fist as adults.

SRFC at Tallaght is a shining example of real local authority/government support for football. Jodi Stand at Dalymount is not Croke Park, but it is clean and comfortable.

And the amount of shít Rovers had to go through is unreal. Football is always going to be second place to Gah in terms of government support outside of Dublin because it's usually not as popular as the Gah, often because that's what you play at school. I played rugby as a kid because that's what I played at school, the thought of playing football for a club was laughable, because rugby took up too much time as it was, football needs to get into schools more than it does now.

They do at Bohs, and I'm sure also at other clubs. Most have community promotion officers organizing this.



It's chicken and egg. The league can market its backside off but, with the brainwashing power of the sporting media, from Sky to RTE to The Irish Times, and the EPL/European Super League ranged against it, we will not get anywhere until we have a sea change in attitudes.

Lose the shoulder-chip 'brain-washing' attitude. Return to the term product - if you offer me a steak sandwich with fillet steak, all the trimmings, etc, perfect, for the same price as a week old rancid McDonald's burger, which will I pick? English football and Irish football is played the exact same way, low on technique, high on work-rate. In the Premiership that makes for high-tempo football, with really skilled players, in the lower divisions, it's shíte. Irish football has a similar problem, technique often falls afoul of mythical things like 'heart' 'spirt' etc and all the bullshít you hear spouted by little Englanders in the tabloids and their Irish equivalents. Football without technique is boring and ugly, and people will not watch that when there is a more aesthetically appealling alternatively so readily available.

whatawaster

SectionF wrote: »

There's a new reality about now, and clubs are starting to cut their cloth to match their means. Unfortunately, since they are in survival mode, there simply aren't adequate resources to fund youth teams properly.

It should be a number one priority. It's the only long term way forward, and if they can't afford it they should make cuts elsewhere until they can.

Genuine question: how do the top schoolboy teams fund their operations? Is it all voluntary?

I understand that, but there is more going on than a simple product proposition. However, we are not talking about an ordinary 'product' here. It isn't an accident that 'Soccer' is one of the biggest forums on boards.ie, and baked beans, despite being a hugely successful product, isn't. If I viewed football as a product I would buy something other than LoI.

It's absolutely a product. And one with alternatives that are too attractive (English football, Rugby, GAA) to ignore this fact. There's no point in having romantic notions about LOI being more than just a commercial product. That will get us nowhere.

Agreed. Though FAI has been ramping up marketing recently, to give (some of) them their due. See loi.ie.

Again, i've been exposed to none of this, and i certainly haven't been persuaded by any of its rhetoric, so i'd have to question it's effectiveness. Most people have no reason to go to LOI.ie so it'll take a lot more than that.

Takes investment. Without a sugar daddy, the money isn't there. Most Irish super daddies buy into the obsession with British football and prefer to invest in places like Peterborough and Sunderland (remember them?).

Sugar daddy's are certainly not the way forward

Agreed on adult prices. Kids are €5 into Dalymount. If you have a kid or kids and understand what they can do to your wallet, that is the best value activity on the planet, other than breathing.

I agree with the other poster who said it should be free.

SRFC at Tallaght is a shining example of real local authority/government support for football. Jodi Stand at Dalymount is not Croke Park, but it is clean and comfortable.

I wish i could say the same about United Park

SectionF

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Lose the shoulder-chip 'brain-washing' attitude. Return to the term product - if you offer me a steak sandwich with fillet steak, all the trimmings, etc, perfect, for the same price as a week old rancid McDonald's burger, which will I pick? English football and Irish football is played the exact same way, low on technique, high on work-rate. In the Premiership that makes for high-tempo football, with really skilled players, in the lower divisions, it's shíte. Irish football has a similar problem, technique often falls afoul of mythical things like 'heart' 'spirt' etc and all the bullshít you hear spouted by little Englanders in the tabloids and their Irish equivalents. Football without technique is boring and ugly, and people will not watch that when there is a more aesthetically appealling alternatively so readily available.

The meat analogy doesn't apply. Though far from rancid, Irish football clearly is not of the same quality as English globalised football and never will be. If either of them qualifies as a McDonald's product, however, it is televised football (and don't believe for a moment that the live experience is what drives it). So, if we are talking about competition, we are talking about real Irish meat, perhaps from the less fancy cuts but honest for all that, v. moving pictures of McDonaldized British/Spanish/French/African meat.

Ultimately, however, they are not competing products. Irish people, like people everywhere, will always want to watch the best league in the world. What we need to shed is the idea that doing so automatically should exclude Irish football.

Even then, if we try to sell it merely as a product we are doomed. We need to reach deeper than that, not as a romantic exercise but with the hard realisation that it actually is not viable in primitive business terms. We have to escape the commercial straitjacket and look past the by now automated dogma that preaches that there is profit in the game in Ireland or, if there isn't, it should be let die.

Often on this forum, seeing the game other than from the narrow perspective of the market is denounced as heresy. I think people are attracted to that kind of rhetoric because it chimes with the success of the big brands with which so many identify, and the confusion between business and sport, the business of sport and the business of media.

But if that kind of mentality prevailed generally, Shamrock Rovers, whose new stadium has been held out iin this thread as an example of true progress, would still be homeless.

micks

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Oooh! Big shiny PDF. The FAI love those. All is saved now.

EDIT: I have read the PDF and while the programme is well put together, I doubt much within it has been actioned.

So Its the FAI and they produced a PDF outlining their plan - so shoot it down?

Elaborate on I doubt much within it has been actioned

DSB

Reading people who clearly never go near a LOI stadium talk about how to fix the league and the Irish youth system and national team seriously drives me close to full on vomiting. Only in Ireland could you get that.

whatawaster

DSB wrote: »

Reading people who clearly never go near a LOI stadium talk about how to fix the league and the Irish youth system and national team seriously drives me close to full on vomiting. Only in Ireland could you get that.

how can you tell someone clearly never goes near a LOI stadium?

DSB

whatawaster wrote: »

how can you tell someone clearly never goes near a LOI stadium?

You can generally tell from their posts. Its fairly easy to tell when someones posting from the outside looking in as opposed to a fan with grievances.

whatawaster

DSB wrote: »

You can generally tell from their posts. Its fairly easy to tell when someones posting from the outside looking in as opposed to a fan with grievances.

and what can you tell from my posts?

DSB

whatawaster wrote: »

and what can you tell from my posts?

That you appear to support Drogheda United.

SectionF

DSB wrote: »

That you appear to support Drogheda United.

Does that count as outside or inside?

DSB

Inside. Just for the first 3 pages (and its continued in bits and pieces) or so all I'd see was people who you could immediately tell had no interest in the LOI coming out with rants about how LOI clubs and Ireland in general should be able to nurture the youth with better facilities, better coaches etc. and its somewhat akin to Jodie Marsh coming out as an activist against teenage mothers. If you don't follow domestic football in this country then your opinion on this subject is pretty much invalid imo. Because you're pretty much the problem.

anonymous_joe

SectionF wrote: »

The meat analogy doesn't apply. Though far from rancid, Irish football clearly is not of the same quality as English globalised football and never will be. If either of them qualifies as a McDonald's product, however, it is televised football (and don't believe for a moment that the live experience is what drives it). So, if we are talking about competition, we are talking about real Irish meat, perhaps from the less fancy cuts but honest for all that, v. moving pictures of McDonaldized British/Spanish/French/African meat.

Ultimately, however, they are not competing products. Irish people, like people everywhere, will always want to watch the best league in the world. What we need to shed is the idea that doing so automatically should exclude Irish football.

Even then, if we try to sell it merely as a product we are doomed. We need to reach deeper than that, not as a romantic exercise but with the hard realisation that it actually is not viable in primitive business terms. We have to escape the commercial straitjacket and look past the by now automated dogma that preaches that there is profit in the game in Ireland or, if there isn't, it should be let die.

Often on this forum, seeing the game other than from the narrow perspective of the market is denounced as heresy. I think people are attracted to that kind of rhetoric because it chimes with the success of the big brands with which so many identify, and the confusion between business and sport, the business of sport and the business of media.

But if that kind of mentality prevailed generally, Shamrock Rovers, whose new stadium has been held out iin this thread as an example of true progress, would still be homeless.

Of course going to matches is preferable. I've been to matches in Dublin, Manchester, Holland and Brazil. Live is always better.

But here's the thing, would you rather see a shít band live or listen to your favourite band's album?

Globalised football is the highest standard at the end of the day. It looks better, it is better, etc, etc. Also, it's where all the best Irish players end up, which is certainly a factor in popularity terms.

Also in fairness, the English system's set up to take our players, and we've never done anything to stop it. Not many countries so willfully let their best talent leave, but such is our way. That's a bit of a problem tbh. Certainly doesn't encourage people to take an interest.

everdead.ie

DSB wrote: »

Inside. Just for the first 3 pages (and its continued in bits and pieces) or so all I'd see was people who you could immediately tell had no interest in the LOI coming out with rants about how LOI clubs and Ireland in general should be able to nurture the youth with better facilities, better coaches etc. and its somewhat akin to Jodie Marsh coming out as an activist against teenage mothers. If you don't follow domestic football in this country then your opinion on this subject is pretty much invalid imo. Because you're pretty much the problem.

Well look how Galway united have hooked up with salthill devon and now include a couple of pretty promising youngsters in mcbrian and vinny faherty. Both came up through the ranks and now have a great chance of developing into excellent players.

Infact the whole squad has an average age in the low 20's. alot of people have highlighted the need to create these links so maybe there onto something maybe and maybe they don't follow clubs in there area because there family or peers never gave it a second thought when they where at the young and impressionable age.

The only reason i'd say i ever go to matches is because when i played with salthill they gave me free tickets and now i have a connection with the club you can only support a club if you know it's there and have a genuine connection to the club.

DSB

everdead.ie wrote: »

Well look how Galway united have hooked up with salthill devon and now include a couple of pretty promising youngsters in mcbrian and vinny faherty. Both came up through the ranks and now have a great chance of developing into excellent players.

Infact the whole squad has an average age in the low 20's. alot of people have highlighted the need to create these links so maybe there onto something maybe and maybe they don't follow clubs in there area because there family or peers never gave it a second thought when they where at the young and impressionable age.

The only reason i'd say i ever go to matches is because when i played with salthill they gave me free tickets and now i have a connection with the club you can only support a club if you know it's there and have a genuine connection to the club.

I didn't for a minute understate the role junior clubs can play. But this country will never be anything more than 11 players who give it all for 90 minutes with very little flair or class, and get average enough results, until our national league can sustain players, at least until the foreign clubs want to pick them up for their first team. Not even talking about the players playing in Ireland while they play for Ireland, but its definitely where the starting point should be, and we'll never afford it until the football 'fans' of this country start to realise it. You can spout all the rubbish about connection with a club all you want, its just an excuse. Everyone had to make an effort to forge their connection somewhere, yet some people think the club has to smack them in the face to get their attention.

Bottom line, if people aren't willing to support domestic football in this country (and people can ****e on all they want about how they support their local junior club, how many other countries have formed impressive national teams based on only having strong regional leagues?), then theres no point in theorising about how the country is going to improve, because you're missing the problem thats staring you right in the face, the problem is you. And thats a plural you, before the person I'm quoting gets defensive. You can't expect to watch Premiership football every weekend, ignore domestic football, and then turn up at Croker/Landsdowne every few months and expect a team of worldbeaters. Idiotic. The problem is you.

micks

SectionF wrote: »

PDFs are great. So are consultants. Look at the sheer genius of Genesis in extracting fees from the FAI for their 'analysis' of Irish football a few years back.

As to the reason why LoI clubs don't do enough to foster schoolboy football, it's quite simple. They're broke, and they're getting more broke all the time.

That's principally because the Irish sporting public -- while demanding magical success from the boys in green at one end of the scale and a proper system for the kids at the other -- refuses to support senior football. It's not about making a few organizational tweaks and replacing a strong outfit like Kevin's with a LoI schoolboy section: it's about changing the entire culture of how the sport is represented and viewed in our country.

So every schoolboy club in the country manages to get by but its too expensive for an LOI club to do?
This is where we definitely differ on how to set up well supported club. You see for me a schoolboy section with 1000 members is well at least 1000 supporters for the senior team?
What will happen when the Kevin's, Malahide's, Crumlin's etc go into the A championship and so hold onto their schoolboys that dont go to England and as such reducing the players available to the likes of Bohs?

PDF's are great? but when put into practice? how good are they then?

micks

SectionF wrote: »

There's a new reality about now, and clubs are starting to cut their cloth to match their means. Unfortunately, since they are in survival mode, there simply aren't adequate resources to fund youth teams properly.

How much is too much - ie how much do you think it takes to run a schoolboyy section?

micks

whatawaster wrote: »

It should be a number one priority. It's the only long term way forward, and if they can't afford it they should make cuts elsewhere until they can.

Genuine question: how do the top schoolboy teams fund their operations? Is it all voluntary?

Vast majority are funded by the kids themselves - paying "subs" , then whatever sponsorship/fundraising required - bag packing,raffles etc

civis_liberalis

everdead.ie wrote: »

Well look how Galway united have hooked up with salthill devon and now include a couple of pretty promising youngsters in mcbrian and vinny faherty. Both came up through the ranks and now have a great chance of developing into excellent players.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Galway United have no connection with Salthill Devon. They pay Devon a large annual fee for the use of their facilities.

As regards there being some sort of agreement between the two clubs regarding the movement of players... When Galway United expressed interest in Ger Hanley (Irish underage International goalkeeper), who was under no contract with Devon, a letter was written by the Galway United CEO asking for permission to speak with him. My understanding of the situation was that the letter was written out of courtesy, as they had as much right to speak with him as anyone. Allegedly, a thinly veiled threat to kick United out of the training facility the next morning was sent in reply to the letter, should United decide to act upon their interest in the player.

The above is bit of a rant, but I sums up the distrust that exists in many places in Ireland when it comes to Junior club's dealings with LOI teams.

micks

DSB wrote: »

Bottom line, if people aren't willing to support domestic football in this country (and people can ****e on all they want about how they support their local junior club, how many other countries have formed impressive national teams based on only having strong regional leagues?), then theres no point in theorising about how the country is going to improve, because you're missing the problem thats staring you right in the face, the problem is you. And thats a plural you, before the person I'm quoting gets defensive. You can't expect to watch Premiership football every weekend, ignore domestic football, and then turn up at Croker/Landsdowne every few months and expect a team of worldbeaters. Idiotic. The problem is you.

The thing you are overlooking is that domestic football in Ireland is made up of approx 5% LOI and 95% the rest (Junior/Schoolboy etc) While you are right a stronger LOI would be beneficial for the National Team losing/weakening the rest of domestic football would destroy the Nation Team. Whether you like it or not the LOI only makes up a small minority of Domestic football. Instead of blaming the "non-believers" they need to be won over. I for one believe that stronger youth set-up will both improve support and improve the quality of players in the LOI

micks

civis_liberalis wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Galway United have no connection with Salthill Devon. They pay Devon a large annual fee for the use of their facilities.

As regards there being some sort of agreement between the two clubs regarding the movement of players... When Galway United expressed interest in Ger Hanley (Irish underage International goalkeeper), who was under no contract with Devon, a letter was written by the Galway United CEO asking for permission to speak with him. My understanding of the situation was that the letter was written out of courtesy, as they had as much right to speak with him as anyone. Allegedly, a thinly veiled threat to kick United out of the training facility the next morning was sent in reply to the letter, should United decide to act upon their interest in the player.

The above is bit of a rant, but I sums up the distrust that exists in many places in Ireland when it comes to Junior club's dealings with LOI teams.

Don't know the exact history but when club licensing first came out Galway had a link with Devon citing them as their underage set up. Since Devons went EL U21 and then A Championship

civis_liberalis

micks wrote: »

Don't know the exact history but when club licensing first came out Galway had a link with Devon citing them as their underage set up. Since Devons went EL U21 and then A Championship

Thanks for that. Fair enough if that's true, but it doesn't change what happened.