Ending the Management Company Monopoly

silliegillie

I have an issue with the monopoly of Management Companies, Especially for apartments blocks. I think its time to stand up and get them out.
-Insurance :Why Cant I pay my own Building insurance
-Block cleaning/grass cutting :I have no problem hoovering the common area outside My door or cutting the grass beside my apartment. If every one in the block took this attitude it would be once a month you only need to cut/hoover
-Electricity :Why cant the ESB divide up the cost of lighting the common area by the amount of apartments and add it to my bill.
-Refuse : Its easy to reduce the amount of Rubbish I throw out. In this environment it should be every ones responsibility to do so. There are plenty of options for me to get rid of my rubbish.
-Lift Maintenance : Haven't come up with a solution for this other than walking. Take the laziness out of your life. Plus its that 2 min exercise I need.(This would prob be the hardest for people to agree on I understand pregant woman and shopping ect..)
-Fire Alarms : Im sure I could find a contractor to look after my block for far cheaper than manaement company are quoting.

Cleaning the common area promotes a sense of community, and in this day and age that is a spirit that needs to make a come back. Management Companies are as a result of the laziness in people and we are being punished financially because of it.

Management company charges 1500 euro.
New charges to my Method Less than 500 euro

Im actually not expecting a huge response in favour of my logic but it is one I will be bringing to the next Residence association meeting. Just wondering what people think.

egan007

It seems you need to find the difference between a management company and a management agent.
You ARE the management company.

There are many problems with your methods. For example - the ESB - not everyone will have their power bill from the ESB.

There are many problems, to find the solution you need to understand the problems. You don't understand the problem I'm afraid.

silliegillie

Ok. Whoever is supplying the Electricity for the common area can bill each apartment seperately.
The problem is Management Agencies, I want them gone

Ste.phen

AS egan007 pointed out, as an owner in the development you're a shareholder in the management company.

If you think you're getting bad value from the management agent, you should contact the directors of the management company and encourage them to shop around for both the agent themselves, and for the specific services the agent provides (security, maintenance, landscaping, etc).

If you feel so strongly about it, you should put yourself forward as a director at the next AGM too and take an active role in running the development you live in.

Some of your original post shows a little ignorance regarding why the management company (again, as distinct from the management agent) exists. You don't *OWN* your apartment, you have a lease on the apartment, in a building owned by the management company, of which you own a share.

You probably COULD pay your own insurance, but good luck getting affording insurance that would cover the full rebuild cost of the entire building on your own

silliegillie

This is my whole point. I want to change the way it all works. You are right, I dont understand how the system works with regard to this. But by doing this and challenging the established look of things I can get to understand it. But legally where do I stand on any issue I have raised ?
I want to be responsible for it all myself, and not have a company/agency do it for me, for the simple reason, "and I dont care what the law states on this I bought the property its mine",I dont want anybody telling me how to live in an apartment I payed well over the odds on.(Of course taking into consideration common decency for my fellow neighbours)

ogriofa

I like what you're trying to do. I've though about it myself. But I think the answer would be to get rid of the directors, vote yourselves in and change Management agents.
A girl in work saved 200 euro pa doing that. I'll bet there's cheaper again

silliegillie

Ok Im starting to buy in that maybe I need to become a Director to get things done or changed.

techdiver

The answer for the future is for people never to buy apartments. As some one who has rented and is currently renting, I would never buy and apartment. I am lucky to have this hindsight.

Apartment living is tantamount to living in a boarding school. There are so many rules and regulations that it sickens my a**. Every time you receive a communication from the agent/company it never has anything constructive in it. It's always don't do this, don't do that, you are not permitted to... etc.....

Anyway rant over.

Back to the original question, I believe that you are stuck I'm afraid. First chance you can get to purchase a "real" property and offload the current dorm room that you purchased I would do it.

silliegillie

Techdiver. I agree with you. Unfortunately I have only ever rented in Houses and never lived in an apartment before purchasing one. Hindsight is excellent. I do intend on selling as soon as I can. one thing stopping me is I purchsed for 373,00. Apartment is now worth 270,000.
Yes I have lot of issue to deal with and by the amount My place has devalued, Im looking at making this place my home for a long time, therefore I want to be happy and get this issue off my back.

bobbysands81

silliegillie wrote: »

I have an issue with the monopoly of Management Companies, Especially for apartments blocks. I think its time to stand up and get them out.
-Insurance :Why Cant I pay my own Building insurance
-Block cleaning/grass cutting :I have no problem hoovering the common area outside My door or cutting the grass beside my apartment. If every one in the block took this attitude it would be once a month you only need to cut/hoover
-Electricity :Why cant the ESB divide up the cost of lighting the common area by the amount of apartments and add it to my bill.
-Refuse : Its easy to reduce the amount of Rubbish I throw out. In this environment it should be every ones responsibility to do so. There are plenty of options for me to get rid of my rubbish.
-Lift Maintenance : Haven't come up with a solution for this other than walking. Take the laziness out of your life. Plus its that 2 min exercise I need.(This would prob be the hardest for people to agree on I understand pregant woman and shopping ect..)
-Fire Alarms : Im sure I could find a contractor to look after my block for far cheaper than manaement company are quoting.

Cleaning the common area promotes a sense of community, and in this day and age that is a spirit that needs to make a come back. Management Companies are as a result of the laziness in people and we are being punished financially because of it.

Management company charges 1500 euro.
New charges to my Method Less than 500 euro

Im actually not expecting a huge response in favour of my logic but it is one I will be bringing to the next Residence association meeting. Just wondering what people think.

One way of cutting down on annual costs is to make the Managing Agents fully accountable to the Management Company. Remember you guys (the company) direct the Managing Agents on what they should be doing. For instance if you're not happy with the cleaning bills you should direct the Agents to write to ten different companies seeking free quotations.

In theory your block insurance should be much cheaper if you all club together and purchase it (like you're doing) than it would be if one person was to buy on their own.

You have no problem cleaning your common area... loads of people do though and loads of people won't clean something that they don't own themselves.

Your Managing Agents do exactly what you want the ESB to do so no real difference. The ESB won't do it as there's a lot of Admin costs to do it that way.

A lot of complexes are now landscaped and I think they look all the better for it and it's worth the extra few quid. You can save money here by getting your hands on the contract you have with them and ensuring that they are carrying it out in the way they are meant to. You could even ask to see the Time Sheets of the staff that are meant to be keeping your place nicely landscaped. There should be nothing stopping you from seeking new gardeners should you not be happy with the current ones.

Again, you should get economies of scale from your refuse and it should be fairly cheap. Recycling bins should also be available and, as you say, if everyone does their bit and cuts down on the amount of refuse they use then everyone's bill will be that bit cheaper.

Lift Maintenance is always going to be expensive, not much that can be done there.

Fire Alarms - If you can find a cheaper contractor then inform your Agents of this.

A lot of Agents are "cosy" with people/companies that carry out duties on behalf of the residents and if not checked they can give jobs to their friends/preferred provider. As you can imagine this will not always benefit the unit owners as the cheapest option is not always the option they choose. That is where the Directors of the Management Co come in, it is up to them to ensure that everything is being run and done correctly. Get involved as a Director if you feel so strongly about this. I have first hand experience of Agents giving jobs to their pals to the detriment of the unit owners.

This website should help:

http://www.consumerproperty.ie/

bobbysands81

silliegillie wrote: »

This is my whole point. I want to change the way it all works. You are right, I dont understand how the system works with regard to this. But by doing this and challenging the established look of things I can get to understand it. But legally where do I stand on any issue I have raised ?
I want to be responsible for it all myself, and not have a company/agency do it for me, for the simple reason, "and I dont care what the law states on this I bought the property its mine",I dont want anybody telling me how to live in an apartment I payed well over the odds on.(Of course taking into consideration common decency for my fellow neighbours)

A few points...

You don't own your apartment, the Management Company does - you only lease it from them.

There's nothing legally stopping you from taking over as the Agent and doing all the work that they usually do as long as you have agreement from the unit owners. However, there is a reason why Managing Agents are there, it is not an easy job to do... but it is profitable! However, loads of Agents want better regulation and more stringent to be put in place as they feel they are getting a bad name given the amount of cowboys that are out there.

"I dont want anybody telling me how to live in an apartment I payed well over the odds on" - I'm afraid you have no choice, you signed up to this upon purchasing your apartment and therefore you have a set of rules and legal documents which you MUST adhere to. Take out your legal documents and read them, you should even have a set of "House Rules" that will tell you what you can and can't do!

techdiver

bobbysands81 wrote: »

A few points...

You don't own your apartment, the Management Company does - you only lease it from them.

I'd love to see the legal precedence for evicting this so called "lease holder" for non complience with MC rules. It would be laughed out of court. The simple fact is that a MC can write what ever they like into their little rule book, but much of it would not stand up oif challenged in court.

silliegillie

"I dont want anybody telling me how to live in an apartment I payed well over the odds on" - I'm afraid you have no choice, you signed up to this upon purchasing your apartment and therefore you have a set of rules and legal documents which you MUST adhere to. Take out your legal documents and read them, you should even have a set of "House Rules" that will tell you what you can and can't do![/quote]

Exactly, So we need to change the system ...Your Namesake Died to get things changed. I dont want to Die for this particular cause but I do feel passionate about it.

bobbysands81

techdiver wrote: »

I'd love to see the legal precedence for evicting this so called "lease holder" for non complience with MC rules. It would be laughed out of court. The simple fact is that a MC can write what ever they like into their little rule book, but much of it would not stand up oif challenged in court.

I wonder how correct you would be when you consider that this is a legal document which you have agreed to and signed. Many people have been taken to court in relation to non-payment of Management Fees.

I wonder has anyone actually ever been kicked out of an apartment complex in this country for breaching the rules? Anyone know?

I know that Management Cos have gone to the wall whereupon the Minister for Finance legally "owns" the whole complex!

bobbysands81

silliegillie wrote: »

"I dont want anybody telling me how to live in an apartment I payed well over the odds on" - I'm afraid you have no choice, you signed up to this upon purchasing your apartment and therefore you have a set of rules and legal documents which you MUST adhere to. Take out your legal documents and read them, you should even have a set of "House Rules" that will tell you what you can and can't do!

Exactly, So we need to change the system ...[/QUOTE]

What do you propose to do to change it?

silliegillie

I'm not sure yet bobby, I've only just begun my quest, Hence why I have posted this thread. To find out people thoughts on the Matter. To see if I have any support. To find out the Law pertaining to this area, Hopefully find loopholes with it. I'm not an anarchist but when it comes to this particular issue maybe I am, and get it to a point where my anarchy is no longer seen as anarchy but as common practice

Paulw

techdiver wrote: »

I'd love to see the legal precedence for evicting this so called "lease holder" for non complience with MC rules. It would be laughed out of court. The simple fact is that a MC can write what ever they like into their little rule book, but much of it would not stand up oif challenged in court.

Actually, I believe there have been cases where people have been evicted (by the courts) for non-payment of management fees. Not sure about for non-compliance with other articles in the Lease Contract, but I do believe even some of those have stood up in court.

I bought an apt. I thought our fees were high and we were not getting value. I helped setup a resident's association. I helped force issues at the company AGM and EGM, to remove the developer as directors, and I became an elected director of our management company.

We changed management agent, and services have very much improved. Costs, however, have not gone down drastically, but I think that is more to do with the economic climate.

silliegillie

Paulw wrote: »

Actually, I believe there have been cases where people have been evicted (by the courts) for non-payment of management fees. Not sure about for non-compliance with other articles in the Lease Contract, but I do believe even some of those have stood up in court.
.

Any definites here, no one seems to know for sure. it sounds more like hear say than fact. Paulw you say you believe not that you know for sure. Not picking at you just would like a definitive answer.

gaz wac

Paulw wrote: »

Costs, however, have not gone down drastically, but I think that is more to do with the economic climate.

I thought they would have gone down alot as seen as the price of service's have nosedived ?? no ?

Paulw

gaz wac wrote: »

I thought they would have gone down alot as seen as the price of service's have nosedived ?? no ?

ESB hasn't nose-dived, and is fairly level with last year. Insurance has actually gone up (due to claims in the last 2 years), waste disposal hasn't gone down, etc.

Our fees hadn't gone up either, so we're paying about the same as 4 years ago.

This year, it looks like we will slightly be able to reduce our outgoings, assuming everyone pays their fees on time.

gaz wac

Paulw wrote: »

This year, it looks like we will slightly be able to reduce our outgoings, assuming everyone pays their fees on time.

What happens if people dont pay? I know services are effected but why dont the managment company actually bring people to court like they say? if its expensive, could you not say to a solicitor " ok we have 100 people not paying, how much would it talk to bring them all to court" ? im sure its not based on every single case ( could be, i dont know) I take it any cost is passed onto the non payers? If its so water tight that these people have to pay cos they signed on the dotted line, why not just see them in court ?

300th post wahoooooooo Go the Wac ;-)

Paulw

We currently have served papers to a number of unit owners who have not paid, and we're awaiting court dates. These would relate to fees not paid in full for 2007 and 2008.

So, in our case, unless people pay in full, they will see a day in court. They will face a bill for - unpaid management fees, interest charges on unpaid fees, legal and administrative costs in recovering the debt.

We don't have a large number of people who haven't paid to date, but even a few (under 10) can amount to a good bit of money.

gaz wac

Paulw wrote: »

These would relate to fees not paid in full for 2007 and 2008.

So, in our case, unless people pay in full, they will see a day in court. .

Is that a loop hole? So say if the OP pays ..just say €200 for 2007 and €200 for 2008, its more than likely that it could go on for years as he is seen to be attempting to pay ?

Paulw

From memory, it seems to be that either people pay (in full) or don't pay (at all). I haven't noticed cases where people only pay some.

Of course, any outstanding debt is chased, and anyone not paying, in full, will end up in court.

athtrasna

bobbysands81 wrote: »

A few points...

You don't own your apartment, the Management Company does - you only lease it from them.

This is the key to many of the issues raised. OP, you need to research and learn more about apartment living.

You don't own the building your apartment is in, the management company does. You don't own your external walls, the management company does. You probably own your ceiling as it's probably somebody else's floor, you don't own your floor as it's somebody else's ceiling. The management company owns the building.

You can't insure what you don't own ie the building. Insurance requires lighting of common areas hence you can't pay for the ESB for the common areas. Cleaners for common areas can only be hired by the owners of building...the management company. See a trend here?

Even the fact that the OP doesn't get the difference between management companies and agents is worrying. There are rights and responsibilities that come with living in a managed development. Learn them and get involved in your management company, nobody can protect your interests better than you can. I've been an owner director in our development for nearly 5 years now and fees have gone down every year as we make savings, cuts and bargain for lower rates. You say you think you can get better rates for lift maintenance and fire alarm servicing, get involved and beneft from the savings.

Be proactive not reactive.

gaz wac

athtrasna wrote: »

. You don't own your external walls, the management company does. .

if there are houses in a estate, and someone gets new windows in and the walls are skimmed and needs to be painted, who pays to paint them ? what happens, if your colour dosent match the other houses ? what if your house needs to be painted as its been 5 years since they were built and the wheather has taken its toll ?

Cheers

otwb

silliegillie wrote: »

-Insurance :Why Cant I pay my own Building insurance

1. You don't own the building
2. if you have common area gardens/carparks/entrance halls these have to be insured.
3. Why don't you phone an insurer and see if you can get coverage for rebuilding the complex if your apartment goes on fire and burns the entire block down.
4. If bob next door doesn't bother his ass getting the level of insurance outlined in (3) above then you caould be in trouble

silliegillie wrote: »

-Block cleaning/grass cutting :I have no problem hoovering the common area outside My door or cutting the grass beside my apartment. If every one in the block took this attitude it would be once a month you only need to cut/hoover

Good for you. I fully agree. Problem is that some owner-occupiers and many tenants won't think this way. So you end up doing the work all the time. If you are ok with that then please let your management company know. We're paying 30k a year for gardeners in my complex - if we had someone like you around we'd save a fortune.

silliegillie wrote: »

-Electricity :Why cant the ESB divide up the cost of lighting the common area by the amount of apartments and add it to my bill.

Good idea.

silliegillie wrote: »

-Refuse : Its easy to reduce the amount of Rubbish I throw out. In this environment it should be every ones responsibility to do so. There are plenty of options for me to get rid of my rubbish.

Again, watch for Bob next door - he'll happily throw his couch into the carpark and let it rot.

silliegillie wrote: »

-Lift Maintenance : Haven't come up with a solution for this other than walking. Take the laziness out of your life. Plus its that 2 min exercise I need.(This would prob be the hardest for people to agree on I understand pregant woman and shopping ect..)

Old people, disabled people, grocery shopping for a week... Need to keep the lifts maintained. You want to walk then feel free, it will reduce wear on teh lifts. Problem is that you knew that there were lifts when you moved into the complex.

silliegillie wrote: »

-Fire Alarms : Im sure I could find a contractor to look after my block for far cheaper than manaement company are quoting.

Then get some quotes and send them on to the management company/agents. They will love the help.

silliegillie wrote: »

Cleaning the common area promotes a sense of community, and in this day and age that is a spirit that needs to make a come back.

Agree, but Bob next door will happily sit back and let you do the work. Why not get a group of people together and decide what you can do around the complex - then talk to the Directors.

silliegillie wrote: »

Management Companies are as a result of the laziness in people and we are being punished financially because of it.

No. Management Companies are there because someone needs to look at long term issues surrounding your complex. You haven't added any comments about the level of money that you would be willing ito contribute to a sink fund (Do you really want a hefty levy every time the outside of your block needs to be painted or those lifts need replacing?

silliegillie wrote: »

Management company charges 1500 euro.
New charges to my Method Less than 500 euro
.

...+that sink fund, + management agency fees (directors are volunteers and don't have time to cut grass and change lightbulbs while holding down fulltime jobs) + 47 other things that are budgeted for and not laid out above. Why don't you go through the budget and accounts for the year and see what else is going on beyond the obvious.

As a couple of posters have said - go to the AGM and volunteer as a Director if you really want to make a change.

otwb

gaz wac wrote: »

if there are houses in a estate, and someone gets new windows in and the walls are skimmed and needs to be painted, who pays to paint them ? what happens, if your colour dosent match the other houses ? what if your house needs to be painted as its been 5 years since they were built and the wheather has taken its toll ?

Cheers

Its your house, you paint it (unless you have a clause in your contract that says that you can't - this would be a strange one for a semi detached/detached house though). The other poster was referring to apartments where you only 'own' the inside of your compartment and the management company own the structure of the building.

athtrasna

Houses in managed developments are different in that the owners do own the walls and structures. However in our development, the deeds do specify that exterior repainting of houses and apartments will be undertaken by the management company. The cost of this is scary, which is why a good sinking fund is essential in all developments and should be built on year on year in the budget.

Here all houses and apartment leases/deeds state that nobody can alter the external appearance of the buildings, this includes door colours and window colours. You can paint your own door (indeed own door units are expected to), the colour has been circulated to all owners.

To the poster who said they were paying €30k for gardening, get your MA to shop around. We paid about €15k a year and that was the best quote we got for a fully insured gardener, until a hardworking entrepreneurial gardener came along and touted for the business. We're saving €8k this year! And to look at the development you wouldn't notice any difference, if anything it looks better now!

silliegillie

Im beginning to see the error of my ways in thinking, And I thank people for this. However one point I still not certain on. Who sets up the Management company ? Maybe I should have taken more of an interest when buying the property, but to be honest, I was to excited and taken up with having my own place ( Which I subsiquently find out isnt actually mine but am letting it for 900 years Ive mentioned this to several people and they are didnt know either its all a learning curve for me)
By the way hypothically what if I live to be 1000.
Anyway the point Is before anyone moves into the apartments who sets up Management company and who would be the directors ?(Now I understand the difference between agency and companies)

Paulw

silliegillie wrote: »

Anyway the point Is before anyone moves into the apartments who sets up Management company and who would be the directors ?(Now I understand the difference between agency and companies)

The management company would be a requirement on the granting of planning permission to build the development. Normally the developer would set up the management company, and register it. Normally the directors are the developers, until they transfer the company to the ownership of the shareholders. This is generally the case, but not always.

You should be able to look up all the details - list of directors, articles of association of the management company, annual returns, etc, from the CRO website, for a small cost.