Legal Identities

ConfusedTech

I have a hypothetical query re a situation with regards to land.

3 lots of land are sold over a period of time. These are delineated by fencing on site to which are worked to by all but one person who realises that their plot actually, on the architects plans, encroaches onto another one of the three sites, to which they try to lay claim.

All but the person who stands to lose the land have registered their lands as the architect has noted, leaving the person left trying to fit their piece into the puzzle, but it does not!

Does the person who registers their land first, basically get first dibs?

This is not a legal question, I am just trying to find out how this works in the countryside, as in Dublin it is very much different with hard boundaries. I have had three similar instances over the years, and dont know what the actual procedure should be to register.

Jimbo

This is probably more suited to the legal discussion forum but my understanding is that if the fences/boundaries are established (i.e. in place for more than 12 years) and the land is actively used by the people, nobody else can really lay claim to it - i.e. squatter rights.

ConfusedTech

jimbo78 wrote: »

This is probably more suited to the legal discussion forum but my understanding is that if the fences/boundaries are established (i.e. in place for more than 12 years) and the land is actively used by the people, nobody else can really lay claim to it - i.e. squatter rights.

Thanks for that. I understand that a legal posting would be more beneficial, but I placed it here to get responses from the architect/technician side. Those who have dealt with this on site, rather than behind a desk! Thanks again.

Supertech

The '12 years' rule allows a person to claim 'adverse possession', but it is a long drawn out process which involves proving that the land has been in continuous use by the person making the claim for that period of time, and the swearing of legal documents to that effect.

This sort of situation happens a lot where a number of sites are sold off in a row and the first site is pegged out incorrectly on the ground. The error is then carried along through the adjoining sites.

Generally it goes unnoticed. When it needs to be addressed this is generally done by a Deed of Rectification within the Property Registration Authority, which is basically an agreement between all concerned parties that the boundaries on the ground are satisfactory. This is backed up by a map illustrating the existing boundaries as measured on site, and a signed agreement and this is entered onto the instrument within the PRA.

The situation where a dispute arises is more difficult to resolve, because the system of property registration in this country is 'non conclusive', and the map is used for index purposes only.A legal minefield when it comes to identifying boundaries.

ConfusedTech

That answer is perfect Supertech and unfortunate, as I did think that land registry was not so 'Non-conclusive' and was hoping that it was not so loose. It appears to be, and looks like it leads a lot of people to legal procedings.

Is it a case of first come first served when registering? IE, if you are the last of the three and your piece does not fit the slot left, are you more likely to lose out?

Thanks CT

Poor Uncle Tom

I think if we are considering the plots of land as sites this opens up a whole new can of worms. If the site boundry is different from that granted planning permission is the planning permission still valid?

(This is a rethorical question really..!)

Supertech

In essence Uncle Tom No, but if the site dimensions are correct any discrepancy in location is rarely picked up, particularly if the sites or plots in question are in a large field with no distinct feature to use as a check point for dimensions !!

CT it is really a case of first come first served. Normally it is the case that the problem is not noticed until the 'last site' is measured for planning purposes and the issue is then highlighted, but normally by then it's too late, and rectification is the only solution. Fine if the remaining site is of adequate size for purpose - big problem if it's not. Quite often these problems are not dealt with at all, and I've yet to see a boundary moved in this sort of instance, in my experience it's always the mapping that gets altered rather then the fence. I do a lot of this sort of work, and to be honest the quality of mapping and how it ties up with actual physical boundaries is predominantly poor.

There is a strong case for a good digital survey on sites and a follow up setting out exercise using the available technology - accuracy to within 50mm is certainly achievable, but not always used.

ConfusedTech

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I think if we are considering the plots of land as sites this opens up a whole new can of worms. If the site boundry is different from that granted planning permission is the planning permission still valid?

Tom, That thought came to mind too and may have been my next question I would suggest that the planning would certainly be questionable on the basis that if you try to sell the land, it can be legally challenged. I would think that retention would be the way, and only a nasty nasty county council would refuse you 3 years after building! THe important thing would be to ensure that you dont build on teh questionable section!

Supertech, I agree. One of the situations I dealt with a few years ago left my client fighting to stop the neighbour from moving the boundary physically. I didnt deal with the legals, but I did notice that the deeds and the site survey didnt align. In that case I stepped back as the situation and actions got a bit too dangerous for my likin'

Poor Uncle Tom

I've had 3 cases to date very similar as well. Declarations of Identity had been signed on some of the sites as well. Anyway, Deeds of Rectification sorted each out. But it is easy to see where that situation could become very hot.