Unionism, right wing Politics and Education

Unrepentant

junder wrote: »

I can assure you that the majorty of unionist did not vote for the DUP on its posistion on gay rights or isreal for that matter, most voted for the DUP because of no agreemnet stance which has since been proved a lie. Because of the influnce of the churchs i would agree that on moral issues the working class loyalist community can be right wing but on social issues it can be very left wing with many from the loyalist community having been involved in the trade union movement. Moreover There is more to the support of isreal then just a reaction to republicans supporting palistine. As i have mentioned on another thread most Jews in northern ireland see themselves part of the unionist community, many jewish people have been involved in the UUP for example. Moreover Isreal has also supported Northern ireland

Could never understand how Non jewish Unionists could support a state which was created following a Terrorist campaign waged against the British by Israeli's. How can Unionists forget the Bombing of the King David hotel and the murder of British soldiers and publicly displayed bodies of dead soldiers hanging in an olive grove.Can you enlighten me??

junder

There are some that argue just that, namely the real right wing nut jobs, but as i said the jewish community would be and large be pro isreal and being pro union, moreover as i mentioned isreal has supported northern ireland

oscarBravo

Don't even think about turning this into a thread on Israel.

Dudess

dlofnep wrote: »

Ok - Before you get overwhelmed in our own sense of political correctness, there is a hint of truth to what he says. On a political spectrum, many unionists can be very right-winged. Look at any of the comments made by DUP politicians. Attacks against the gay community by Paisley Sr. and Jr., Edwin Poots, Iris Robinson and even Peter Robinson himself.. Not to mention, the infamous Maurice Mills who claimed that Hurricane Katrina was a punishment by God for those who engaged in sodomy. Cop on like..

I mean, these are the type of people who run the leading unionist party in the North, and yet still - continue to receive support. He's also correct on the position of Israel - Only recently, as was discussed in another thread - Ian Paisley created a reactionary group against nationalists in support of Israel.

Does this mean that the entire Unionist community believes in these policies? Of course not. But is there a very large portion of unionist politicians, especially in the DUP who do? Absolutely.

Bang on, but the piece was written terribly. The generalisaing language was outright insulting to moderate, open-minded members of the unionist community.

Can'tseeme

jimmmy wrote: »

That tends to be the same the world over, with exceptions of course. No matter where you go in the world, the kids of say doctors or solicitors or accountants tend to have a higher IQ than say those who are not well educated or those who do not live in middle class areas. I am not saying that is right or wrong ; it just tends to be the way the world is. Of course its a bit more complicated than that too ; certain groups of parents may encourage their kids to be more acedemic too. Some people encourage industriousness, hard work, etc.

Also that the middle classes have more money to tutor there children, etc to make sure they get through the 11+.

But I ask the question again. Is DUP education policy helping to raise the standards of education in working class unionist communities.

Unrepentant

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Also that the middle classes have more money to tutor there children, etc to make sure they get through the 11+.

But I ask the question again. Is DUP education policy helping to raise the standards of education in working class unionist communities.

No!

junder

to be fair the DUP is not in charge of education, sinn fein is, so you could well ask the question what is sinn fein doing to promote education in loyalist working class areas.

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

No!

Is it as bad, would you say, as Irish education policy was at times in 20th century Ireland ( the era of the Magdalene laundries , Christian brothers, plenty of compulsory Irish lessons every day, plenty of nationalist history taught, Peig, etc etc ). It was far from perfect too.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

to be fair the DUP is not in charge of education, sinn fein is, so you could well ask the question what is sinn fein doing to promote education in loyalist working class areas.

Trying to eradicate academic selection which the DUP is doing it's utmost to block.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Trying to eradicate academic selection which the DUP is doing it's utmost to block.

but they have made such a bigs ear of it even catholic grammer schools are rebeling and having thier own form of selection

Unrepentant

jimmmy wrote: »

Is it as bad, would you say, as Irish education policy was at times in 20th century Ireland ( the era of the Magdalene laundries , Christian brothers, plenty of compulsory Irish lessons every day, plenty of nationalist history taught, Peig, etc etc ). It was far from perfect too.

Last time i checked we are in the 21st century. You make a valid point - it was far from perfect.We could go on the Whataboutery merry-go-round but then discussion gets nowhere. The question relates to how Unionist Politicians have failed to adequately represent their constituents by resolving the educational deficit which exists within working class unionist communities. My answer to Cantseeme' question was - No! Are you offay with these areas and if so can you agree that unionist working class communities have been neglected and failed by their political representatives??

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

but they have made such a bigs ear of it even catholic grammer schools are rebeling and having thier own form of selection

Because of the lack of cross community support and the catholic/maintained gammar schools looking after their own interests.

The point is the majority of educationalists, including teachers support the abandonment of academic selection as it's discriminatory.

You're from a working class area junder. Do you even agree with the Sinn Fein position on this or the DUP's?

junder

I do agree with academic selection but think catrina has made a complete pigs ear of the issue to the point that even her own party have distance themselvers from her, and my critizm of sinn fein has nothing to do with the whole NI issue i am merely critizing the party responsible for education, in this case sinn fein.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

I do agree with academic selection but think catrina has made a complete pigs ear of the issue to the point that even her own party have distance themselvers from her, and my critizm of sinn fein has nothing to do with the whole NI issue i am merely critizing the party responsible for education, in this case sinn fein.

Did you mean you do or don't agree with academic selection?

That's fair enough but do you agree she was always on a hiding to nothing. She is trying to make fundamental changes to children's education which goes against unionist policy and she's a member of Sinn Fein. Unionist's were always going to make it extremely difficult for her.

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

Are you offay with these areas

Not really,I am not an expert in that area, as I do not live in N. Ireland ( although I have often visited and some of my best friends are from there ).

Unrepentant wrote: »

and if so can you agree that unionist working class communities have been neglected and failed by their political representatives??

A slightly loaded question, I think, to be fair. It does not exactly take a devils advocate to ponder the fact that Irish education policy ( in the Republic ) has also been " neglected and failed by their political representatives", to use your phrase. There are broader issue. For example, does history indicate that communities are best served by left wing or right wing policies ? I thought the collapse of the Berlin wall put that one to rest. Is education best served by left wing or right wing policies ? Arguably the schools are better funded in N. Ireland than in the Republic ? People from both communities can get free or almost free education in a school of their choice in N. Ireland , I thought, or at least in a school not almost exclusively of another denomination should they so wish.

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Did you mean you do or don't agree with academic selection?

That's fair enough but do you agree she was always on a hiding to nothing. She is trying to make fundamental changes to children's education which goes against unionist policy and she's a member of Sinn Fein. Unionist's were always going to make it extremely difficult for her.

Sorry i ment i am against academic selection. Moreover this time last year i was working at stormont, on the enviorment commitee as it happens, so i have seen the dynamics in the big house for real, and as i said even sinn fein have distanced themselves from her, there were times up in stormont she looked a very lonly women. this has nothing to do with the unionist/nationalist thing, this is about a party or atleast a person screwing up, to the point were schools of both denominations are bringing in thier own selection process

Unrepentant

jimmmy wrote: »

Not really,I am not an expert in that area, as I do not live in N. Ireland ( although I have often visited and some of my best friends are from there ).



A slightly loaded question, I think, to be fair. It does not exactly take a devils advocate to ponder the fact that Irish education policy ( in the Republic ) has also been " neglected and failed by their political representatives", to use your phrase. There are broader issue. For example, does history indicate that communities are best served by left wing or right wing policies ? I thought the collapse of the Berlin wall put that one to rest. Is education best served by left wing or right wing policies ? Arguably the schools are better funded in N. Ireland than in the Republic ? People from both communities can get free or almost free education in a school of their choice in N. Ireland , I thought, or at least in a school not almost exclusively of another denomination should they so wish.

Whilst i don't argue with the points you have made the thrust of my point is that the unionist psyche in working class areas where education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations has been a situation which unionist leadership has failed to address and indeed exploited to meet their own political agendas.

Can'tseeme

Junder, it's politics. The Unionists had a great chance to give her a kickin' over this one, they're not going to let it go. The catholic church wants to protect their grammar schools. You can at least admit she has faced and still is facing an uphill task. A lot of opposition from all sides. There's problems in all parties but Sinn Fein have stood by her

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

Whilst i don't argue with the points you have made the thrust of my point is that the unionist psyche in working class areas where education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations has been a situation which unionist leadership has failed to address and indeed exploited to meet their own political agendas.

So you think education is "seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations" more in working class nationalist areas rather than working class unionist areas ? You could be right, I do not know. However, I do know that I would not have to go to N. Ireland to find working class areas where ( to borrow your words ) " education was not seen as a means to improve individual or community aspirations ".

From talking to teachers too on both sides of the border I think it fair to say the N. I. system is better funded , and on the N.I. side access is cheaper - and always has been - for those from minorities to wish to pursue education of their choice.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I can assure you that the majorty of unionist did not vote for the DUP on its posistion on gay rights or isreal for that matter, most voted for the DUP because of no agreemnet stance which has since been proved a lie.

Thats an interesting point, would you think in the next election the DUP is therefore going to take a major hit to the UUP? They never claimed they were going to be no agreement so could put themselves forward as the more trustworthy party. Or do you think the TUV are likely to gain ground?

junder

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Junder, it's politics. The Unionists had a great chance to give her a kickin' over this one, they're not going to let it go. The catholic church wants to protect their grammar schools. You can at least admit she has faced and still is facing an uphill task. A lot of opposition from all sides. There's problems in all parties but Sinn Fein have stood by her

I have onl seen sinn fein mumble a few platitudes of support for the sake of saving face but thats about it, frankly i think she is to go down with the ship and be replaced by o'dowd who is waiting in the wings to succeed her, once the issue dies down again, she has made a mess of things end of story.

junder

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Thats an interesting point, would you think in the next election the DUP is therefore going to take a major hit to the UUP? They never claimed they were going to be no agreement so could put themselves forward as the more trustworthy party. Or do you think the TUV are likely to gain ground?

I think the dup will loss support in the countyside in places like tryone and fermangh but not enough to knock it of the top spot.

Pandcoa

junder wrote: »

Sorry i ment i am against academic selection. Moreover this time last year i was working at stormont, on the enviorment commitee as it happens, so i have seen the dynamics in the big house for real, and as i said even sinn fein have distanced themselves from her, there were times up in stormont she looked a very lonly women. this has nothing to do with the unionist/nationalist thing, this is about a party or atleast a person screwing up, to the point were schools of both denominations are bringing in thier own selection process

As a former member of SF myself I can confirm there is mixed feelings on the ground and from her collegues, I was at Stormont too last year listening to a few local rep's and one SF MLA made a joke about her ability. Some do feel she is not capable to carry people along in her plans, that she won't hear out others ideas with her constant "But I am the minister of education" line. On the other hand some also see how unionists and opponents have milked this weakness of hers, and there were many times where she has offered to hear them out and negociate only to be snubbed and met with absolute stubbornness. I think the problem lies with her, unionists and stubborn educators who all don't want to concede a tiny bit in this issue.

Can'tseeme

junder wrote: »

I have onl seen sinn fein mumble a few platitudes of support for the sake of saving face but thats about it, frankly i think she is to go down with the ship and be replaced by o'dowd who is waiting in the wings to succeed her, once the issue dies down again, she has made a mess of things end of story.

She may well be replaced, definitely O'Dowd has come in to defend her corner. No doubt she has found it difficult, my point was she has a hell of a lot of opposition to what she has been trying to do in making fundamental changes to education. There hasn't been an inch given by unionist's on this issue.

Again going back to my orginal question, would unionist policy on education improve Protestant working class areas?