Is There an American Empire (and are we one of it's Provinces)

ckristo2

This may be such an obvious question that it deserves no more than a: "Well Duh, yes." or it might be just the biggest elephant in the room.
The U.S. has armed forces stationed in 135 countries out of the 200 or so that make up the world (including Ireland)
It's currency is not only accepted world-wide but eagerly sought after.
It's economy is stitched through almost every other economy in the world and of course it's culture from "Eat my shorts." to "Yes we can." rings out from Argentina to Mongolia.
So do we live in the Era of Pax Americana Imperia and is this Island one of it's self ruling far flung provinces, dutiful and obedient and loyal?

Iwasfrozen

After the fall of the Berlin Wall, America has made progress in establishing itself as the No.1 Superpower in the world. It is without the doubt the ruling Nation and it's Ideology has spread like a fire across 95% of the world.
Alas, we're stuck between a rock and a hard place, America or China.

Driseog

ckristo2 wrote: »

This may be such an obvious question that it deserves no more than a: "Well Duh, yes." or it might be just the biggest elephant in the room.
The U.S. has armed forces stationed in 135 countries out of the 200 or so that make up the world (including Ireland)
It's currency is not only accepted world-wide but eagerly sought after.
It's economy is stitched through almost every other economy in the world and of course it's culture from "Eat my shorts." to "Yes we can." rings out from Argentina to Mongolia.
So do we live in the Era of Pax Americana Imperia and is this Island one of it's self ruling far flung provinces, dutiful and obedient and loyal?

I agree and I don't particularily like the fact either. But then again maybe its inevitable seeing that there is a little bit of every nation in America.

edanto

Well, if the American empire is absolutely and completely indebted to other empires, what would you call that?

pwd

protectorate maybe. province no.

Iwasfrozen

*sigh*
Not economically, the Recession followed by Wealth cycles is one of the fundamental flaws of Capitalism, No what I meant by American Empire was a cultural Empire, no wherever who you are in the World you have been (in some way) influenced by American Culture.

sink

Who says it's necessarily an American empire? Definitely not economically and militarily recent events have shown us and while American culture may have the greatest influence it is far from the only influence. Globalisation is a two way street. Noodles, spaghetti, curry, Buddhism, yoga, judo, kung-fu are just a few examples of cultural traits of non-American origin which have gone global and have influence everything including American pop culture.

magick

ckristo2 wrote: »

This may be such an obvious question that it deserves no more than a: "Well Duh, yes." or it might be just the biggest elephant in the room.
The U.S. has armed forces stationed in 135 countries out of the 200 or so that make up the world (including Ireland)

where in Ireland? if ur counting shannon then u can forget it

extragon

Yes, for now, in all things military and related to "world security."
Yes, in the sense that the US has inserted its self in the imagination and longings of many people, worldwide - mostly through tv and film.

But no empire can last - even at a cultural level - without economic supremacy. In this, the US heyday is long past. The rest will crumble later.

Ireland is far more a "colony" of the US than most EU countries. ( People are more likely to say "51st state," but that's a pathetic delusion ) Instead of trying to model its self on places like Denmark, it thinks it's closer to Boston. It'll do it no good, in the end.

Sand

Empire? Yes

Province? No - client state? Yes

Luckily as far as superpowers go, the US is fairly agreeable. Could always be worse, could be China.

magick

Empire?
nope, but the US stood for freedom and opportunity (yes, yes we can argue that) but it at least models its self on freedom and opportunity, which is something most of not all of humanity strive for. It was envitable that some country was going to adpot these ideas, hence why their so popular.

ckristo2

I was away for a few days but thanks for the comments. The American culture thing goes without saying. Mickey Mouse and Coca Cola went global long before we had Ameican soldiers stationed in Shannon (though the unfortunate Filipinos and Latin Americans have "enjoyed" that privilege for over a 100 years now whether they liked it or not)
The litmus test for me as to whether the U.S. is a real empire is this: American intelliegence services can (and have) kidnapped U.K. German and Italian citizens, had them detained without charge and tortured. Now what do you think would happen if say Germany kidnapped an American citizen and tortured them?
Empires have servants not allies.
What do you think would happen if the Irish Government wanted to ban U.S. armed forces from Ireland. Would we be allowed? Gardai aren't even allowed to enter U.S. property even if it's on Irish soil.
Ever see the Secret Service security when an American President visits. The Guards are pushed aside and trusted with nothing more onerous than manning road blocks.
We shrink to second rate citizens in our own land in the face of Americana.

BroomBurner

I definitely think that America desperately wants to be an Empire. At least, it did when it was under Republican rule.

However, I don't think they're strong enough to become an Empire as great as the Romans or British. Also, in the age of information and communication that we're living in, it's not really that possible.

I do believe that they have a strong sphere of influence, but Empirical, no.

Manic Moran

ckristo2 wrote: »

What do you think would happen if the Irish Government wanted to ban U.S. armed forces from Ireland. Would we be allowed?

Why not? The last time a country asked the US to leave (Uzbekistan, if I recall), the US packed up and left without making a big deal of it. Of course, you would need to look at the longer term consequences of such a move: The reason for doing so would have to be pretty equitable, otherwise the US may decide to stop selling military equipment to Ireland (Most of the commo gear and anti-armour systems comes immediately to mind) or stop allowing Irish military to attend courses in the US. Even if they were equitable, you'd still need to worry about the operational problems. The US soldiers stationed in Ireland probably work wonders for inter-operability in multi-national missions.

Gardai aren't even allowed to enter U.S. property even if it's on Irish soil.

I believe you'll find that diplomatic immunity is a pretty universal concept amongst all embassies in all countries. D.C. police can only enter the Irish embassy with permission, for example. I refer you to Art 31 (s2) of the Vienna Conventions on Consular Relations.

2.The authorities of the receiving State shall not enter that part of the consular premises which is used exclusively for the purpose of the work of the consular post except with the consent of the head of the consular post or of his designee or of the head of the diplomatic mission of the sending State. The consent of the head of the consular post may, however, be assumed in case of fire or other disaster requiring prompt protective action.

Ever see the Secret Service security when an American President visits. The Guards are pushed aside and trusted with nothing more onerous than manning road blocks.
We shrink to second rate citizens in our own land in the face of Americana.

In terms of the security services, the Irish are second-rate. Ever see how many body guards the Taoseach travels with? He's never been denied them in the US as far as I know, he just doesn't have very many.

NTM

Pride Fighter

magick wrote: »

Empire?
nope, but the US stood for freedom and opportunity (yes, yes we can argue that) but it at least models its self on freedom and opportunity, which is something most of not all of humanity strive for. It was envitable that some country was going to adpot these ideas, hence why their so popular.

They certainly offered a great deal to the Phillipino's after annexing it in 1898:rolleyes::rolleyes:

America is a vast empire with several overseas territories. Just because it is a democracy does not make it less of an empire than others.

ckristo2

The Irish armed forces are offered facilities for training and equipment from the U.S. but provided we use it for America's programme. We are curently part of the U.S. neo-colonial activities. Our Government sent Irish soldiers in Afghanistan and a mission to Iraq.
Diplomatic immunity aside the Guards are technically permitted to enter U.S. military and security areas in Shannon (but in private told: " If you want to keep your job don't even think about it")
Uzbekistan will be made to suffer for it's refusal to host American service personnel on it's soil (mainly done as a result of pressure from Russia) Just as Yemen was made to suffer in 1991 by American for not supporting it's 1st war on Iraq.
Basically there is nothing wrong with admitting that America is an empire, it operates differently from the Romans or British preferring influence in key areas rather than overall dominance (this way is cheaper) But it is an Empire nonethless and we happen to be within it's borders. I see nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

Manic Moran

The Irish armed forces are offered facilities for training and equipment from the U.S. but provided we use it for America's programme.

Eh? And exactly how is this 'contract' configured? I'm kindof curious how an Irish Commandant attending the Command and General Staff College in Ft Leavenworth furthers America's Programme other than the basic of international interoperability.

We are curently part of the U.S. neo-colonial activities. Our Government sent Irish soldiers in Afghanistan and a mission to Iraq.

I think that implies the intend for Afghanistan to be a US colony, no? I doubt anyone has any intention of making Afghanistan anything akin to equivalent in status to Guam. No chance that the Irish Army are there as a learning experience, at all?

Diplomatic immunity aside the Guards are technically permitted to enter U.S. military and security areas in Shannon (but in private told: " If you want to keep your job don't even think about it")

There are US military and security areas in Shannon? I was never informed of any when I went through. Where do you have in mind?

Capt'n Midnight

ckristo wrote:

It's currency is not only accepted world-wide but eagerly sought after.

Mainly because oil is traded in dollars.

stevedublin

edanto wrote: »

Well, if the American empire is absolutely and completely indebted to other empires, what would you call that?

wow, Ireland holds 1.63% of American treasuries, that sounds like a lot!
also Americas debt as a %age of GDP is not near as bad as just after WWII.

Manach

I reckon America is an empire, based on the arguments put forward in the Neil Fergusson book 'Colossus' - global reach, military power etc. As empires go they could be a lot worse. As mentioned by Sand in an earlier post, we'd be a client state on its periphery, without an over active interference by the US in our political internal affairs. That had not been the case in the past during the Emergency when the US government had threatened us on a number of occasions over Irish neutrality.

ckristo2

The Irish army command is offered training and demonstrations on the use of modern military equipment by the United States Armed forces. In return the Department of Defense is expected (I don't think there is a written agreement but it wouldn't surprise me if there was) to make available to the U.S. whatever military facilities the Americans need to use (Admittedly paltry enough but the moral support of having a bunch of allied armies with you makes your occupations of other people's countries look less like well...occupations) Shannon does indeed have off limits areas for the use of American military personnel and all it's aircraft (which carry weapons which they aren't supposed to be carrying according to our own laws) are all unofficially "Off limits" to the Guards.
the official narrative with regard to Afghanistan : The U.S. is there to help a fledgeling democracy help fight terrorists is a bit dodgy. Following the invasion the U.S. decided who could and couldn't run in the "free election" held there (as they did in Iraq in 2005)
U.S. airforce has killed thousands of Afghan civilians in sloppy bombing raids and President Kharzi (a former U.S. oil corporation CEO) has even given up protesting about it.
I genuinely believe the U.S. would prefer to quit Afghanistan but Iraq! Now there's text book neo -colonial pure and simple. America will be in that country for decades to come.
America is a global empire. There is no harm in admitting this.

Manic Moran

ckristo2 wrote: »

The Irish army command is offered training and demonstrations on the use of modern military equipment by the United States Armed forces. In return the Department of Defense is expected (I don't think there is a written agreement but it wouldn't surprise me if there was) to make available to the U.S. whatever military facilities the Americans need to use

Well, that's just fine, then. Because you believe something to be the case, it must be, even though you have no evidence to back it up whatsoever.

Don't suppose you think it's possible that the US uses Shannon not in a quid-pro-quo for training/equipping Irish troops, but because the commercial carriers that they contracted in that great Capitalist system they have, happened for business reasons to have chosen Shannon as their European base of operations, just like the people who try to sell Shannon had hoped? I mean, heaven forbid that even the military aircraft should consider the prices at Shannon to be competetive enough that they can save a few dollars by landing there instead of anywhere else, much as has been done by dozens of countries for scores of years. (Scanning the Oireachtas records, for example, the air forces of 38 nations used Shannon as a stopover in 2003). The policy is exactly the same as that taken by the German government over the Frankfurst stopover, even though the Germans were about as enthusiastic about the Iraq expedition as the Irish were. (Except they can provide some security for the airlines, so at least one airline has moved its operations from Shannon to Frankfurt)

Shannon does indeed have off limits areas for the use of American military personnel and all it's aircraft (which carry weapons which they aren't supposed to be carrying according to our own laws) are all unofficially "Off limits" to the Guards.

Would you care to find a Garda who has ever been denied access to anywhere in Shannon? Only reason I ask is that I have first-hand-experience of the transit process, I have a vague idea where the troops were allowed to go vis a vis the Irish authorities. I mean, if the frigging cleaning staff are allowed on the aircraft (witness that whole thing in June 2006 when cleaners said they saw a transported prisoner aboard an aircraft) I find it hard to believe that the Gardai can't go anywhere.

The legal issue of weapons has been addressed in both the Dail and Seanad already. See for example http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/S/0181/S.0181.200510130007.html or http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0653/D.0653.200805010043.html. Please read the Air Navigation (Foreign Military Aircraft) Order of 1952.
Now, which law did you say they were violating?

America is a global empire. There is no harm in admitting this.

Agreed. And in terms of its cultural, and economic influence, Ireland would be a sort of satellite state, maybe even dependant. (Arguably it's also militarily dependant given Ireland's dependence on NATO and NATO's dependence on the US). However, I do take exception to hyperbolic or otherwise inaccurate claims based more on pre-conception and bias than on the facts. If you have policy objections, fine, state them. But don't go making up fictions and presenting them as factual truths.

NTM

Capt'n Midnight

Shannon LOL
Before the Americans, the Russians used to use it as a stop off on the way to Cuba or South America. We are equally happy to sell out to either side as long as the money is good.

ckristo2

It wasn't my intention to get bogged down in Shannon airport so to speak but a few points ought to be made with regard to the Irish government's facilitation of America's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Irish ambassador to the U.N. in 2003 said that there must be a second resolution by the U.N. authorising an attack on Iraq before Ireland could cooperate with the United States . There was no such resolution but we cooperated anyway. (there is supposed to be a written agreemant to this effect)
As a neutral country (I know right wingers sneer at this but it's our Constitution) We cannot offer any belligerant power the use of Irish soil or air space in pursuance of it's activities.
Clearly in allowing the passage of U.S. troops (and most probably their weapons) we are breaking our own law. Or rather our government is.
The case of the American marine shackled to the seat of an aircraft in 2006 was discovered by a cleaner who alerted the authorities, and someone alerted the media as well. The last ones on the scene were the air port police.
I don't have hard evidence but I can get it (via Dr Tom Clonan) that the Guards/Airport police must seek permission if they want to enter the office used by U.S. army personnel in Shannon or if they wish to speak to any U.S. army personnel and (apart from the shackled prisoner ) they have never boarded any of the aircraft used by the U.S. army or security services and have intimidated assaulted and arrested anyone who even asks them to do so ( with regard to the famous C.I.A. "rendition jet" N475LC Oct 2007) so when the Irish police and armed forces are reduced to serving a foreign power, ignoring our own laws and abusing our own citizens in our own country then who Dah Boss?

oscarBravo

ckristo2 wrote: »

As a neutral country (I know right wingers sneer at this but it's our Constitution)...

Where?

ckristo2

Ammendment 1, Sept 2nd 1939. Not terribly clear and more of a declaration of neutrality I'll grant you but it has established our position since the second world War as a neutral nation.

oscarBravo

ckristo2 wrote: »

Ammendment 1, Sept 2nd 1939.

...which extended Article 28.3.3:

Nothing in this Constitution shall be invoked to invalidate any law enacted by the Oireachtas which is expressed to be for the purpose of securing the public safety and the preservation of the State in time of war or armed rebellion, or to nullify any act done or purporting to be done in time of war or armed rebellion in pursuance of any such law. In this sub-section 'time of war' includes a time when there is taking place an armed conflict in which the State is not a participant but in respect of which each of the Houses of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that, arising out of such armed conflict, a national emergency exists affecting the vital interests of the State and 'time of war or armed rebellion' includes such time after the termination of any war, or of any such armed conflict as aforesaid, or of an armed rebellion, as may elapse until each of the Houses of the Oireachtas shall have resolved that the national emergency occasioned by such war, armed conflict, or armed rebellion has ceased to exist.

ckristo2 wrote: »

Not terribly clear and more of a declaration of neutrality I'll grant you but it has established our position since the second world War as a neutral nation.

Not even close to being a declaration of neutrality. It makes it clear that a state of emergency can be declared even if there's a war on that we're not participating in - not that we can't participate in a war.

We're simply not constitutionally neutral.

Nodin

ckristo2 wrote: »

Ammendment 1, Sept 2nd 1939. Not terribly clear and more of a declaration of neutrality I'll grant you but it has established our position since the second world War as a neutral nation.

I seem to remember the odd effort to get neutrality put in the constitution..which would mean that it presumably wasn't/isn't in there to begin with......

ckristo2

Deary me. A Thread on whether America is an empire has degenerated into a debate on the Irish Constitution.
the Republic of Ireland declared itself neutral in 1939 and since then has signed no military or defence treaty (not publically at any rate) with any other nation.
Allowing the combatants (possibly armed) of a warring state to pass through Ireland damages our neutrality. In the absence of a defence treaty with the United States, soldiers with arms have no business on Irish soil. Anybody other than the Guards/Defence forces who have weapons on Irish soil are violating the law (who's to say if the average grunt in the lounge at Shannon hasn't an automatic in his khaks certainly our airport police won't dare to ask them.) A Landsdowne Market Research survey 24/04/07 showed a majority against the use of Shannon in the war on Iraq. But like the marches against the war it is not within the gift of our Government to listen to it's own citizens.
As the Thread suggests our facilities, police, army, airports, or whatever are at the disposal of the United States.

Manic Moran

I don't have hard evidence but I can get it (via Dr Tom Clonan) that the Guards/Airport police must seek permission if they want to enter the office used by U.S. army personnel in Shannon or if they wish to speak to any U.S. army personnel

I await at your leisure. It's to be noted that if the Army personnel office is the same place as the INS area, it arguably comes under the concept of being a consular area and is thus subject to the Vienna Convention immunities given to all consular premises.

and (apart from the shackled prisoner ) they have never boarded any of the aircraft used by the U.S. army or security services

What, so the one time they actually did want to go on board, the Americans forgot to intimidate them?

ckristo2 wrote: »

the Republic of Ireland declared itself neutral in 1939 and since then has signed no military or defence treaty (not publically at any rate) with any other nation.

However, it does still engage in bi-lateral agreements. Quoting Mr Cowen in 2003, at the time the militaries of the following 18 countries had blanket clearance to overfly Ireland. (i.e. they had to notify Ireland, but were not required to receive an affirmative response)
Algeria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Egypt, France, Germany, Italy, Jordan, Luxembourg, Morocco, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, US. The agreement with the US (in writing) has been in place since January 1959.

Allowing the combatants (possibly armed) of a warring state to pass through Ireland damages our neutrality.

No, neutrality means not taking sides. Shannon (and Ireland as a whole) has had great history of not giving a damn who is using the place, and treating everyone equally who asks for permission. For example, in a statement by the Taoseach: "In the year 2004, to date — 1 January to 31 October — permission has been granted for 3,110 foreign military aircraft to overfly Ireland. Permission was granted to the following countries: Belgium, Botswana, Cameroon, Canada, Croatia, Egypt, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Turkey, the UK and the United States"

Doesn't seem like the US is getting any huge level of favouritism.

Anybody other than the Guards/Defence forces who have weapons on Irish soil are violating the law

I've already told you that they aren't. Since you seem not to have read either the Order or transcripts I provided earlier, perhaps you need to read the fine print of the Air Navigation (Carriage of Munitions of War, Weapons and Dangerous Goods) Order 1973, as ammended in 1989?

(who's to say if the average grunt in the lounge at Shannon hasn't an automatic in his khaks

You can say that about any flight from anywhere landing at Shannon. Just how much do you trust airport security? Part of the agreement with the Americans is that they don't take firearms off the aircraft (And that they have no ammunition aboard anyway). Have you anything to show to the contrary?

NTM

ckristo2

We have an agreement with the American to the effect that they don't take their weapons off the aircraft! I'd like to read the fine print in that agreement.
Being a neutral state means not only not taking sides in a conflict but also offering no military assistance to either side. Allowing U.S. service personnel the use of our territory is military assistance.
On October 30th 2007 two Anti-war activists Edward Horgan and Conor Cregan observed the infamous C.I.A. jet N475LC on the runway at Shannon airport. On requesting that the Gardai on duty search the plane in accordances with the U.N. Convention against torture the Gardai said they had been instructed by the Attorney General that they were not to approach any U.S. military aircraft (when questioned later on the Attorney General denied issuing such instructions)
The Limerick Leader of March 13th 2008 mentions no less than 4 C.I.A. aircraft regularly re-fuelling in Shannon. No member of An Garda has ever even approached them let alone stepped on board.
Senator David Norris in the Seanad Debates 19th May 2004 brought up the question of extraordianry renditions and a ship reported to be carrying depleted uranium in Dublin bay. Further to his requests An Garda "Showed no interest in the information"
I have no faith at all in the Guards when it comes to policing the U.S. military in Ireland. I believe they have indeed been instructed to this effect because....Because we are sunservient to the whatever the Americans want.