Is There an American Empire (and are we one of it's Provinces)

Manic Moran

ckristo2 wrote: »

We have an agreement with the American to the effect that they don't take their weapons off the aircraft! I'd like to read the fine print in that agreement.

Are you prepared to say that the Government has outright and blatantly lied to the Oireachtas when they have said that this is one of the conditions for landing in Shannon? The troops are certainly instructed that they must leave them on the aircraft. Has there been a whit of evidence to show that this has not happened? Has a Beretta or machinegun been found in the jack's at Shannon Airport or something?

Being a neutral state means not only not taking sides in a conflict but also offering no military assistance to either side. Allowing U.S. service personnel the use of our territory is military assistance.

Tell me, do you ever look anything up, or do you just make your own conclusions and assume that you are correct? Combatant use of neutral territory is not necessarily a violation of neutrality. For example, if you read the Hague XIII Convention (CONVENTION CONCERNING THE RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF NEUTRAL POWERS IN NAVAL WAR), artice 7 says: "A neutral Power is not bound to prevent the export or transit, for the use of either belligerent, of arms, ammunition, or, in general, of anything which could be of use to an army or fleet."

Article 9, is a handy one to read as well:
"A neutral Power must apply impartially to the two belligerents the conditions, restrictions, or prohibitions made by it in regard to the admission into its ports, roadsteads, or territorial waters, of belligerent war-ships or of their prizes."

As I said, impartiality is the important bit. Note that the simple fact that this article exists is evidence that neutral powers can allow the use of its ports whilst retaining its neutrality. (Disregarding the fact that Ireland is legally more 'non-aligned' than 'neutral'). Note that there is a difference between using a facility as a base for offensive operations, and simply using the facility to pass through.

A famous historical case in point was the Battle of the River Plate, which took place just off neutral Uruguay. After the engagement, Graf Spee docked in Montevideo. The British did not consider this a violation of the neutrality, and simply stayed off-shore until the ship finished its repairs and came back out again. (Uruguay gave the Germans three days to leave port)

NTM

ckristo2

I started this thread a number of weeks ago and many thanks to all those who both read and contributed to it.
As anyone who has read my own pieces can ascertain I do indeed believe there is an American empire and we are indeed inside it's umbrella.
I'm sure most Irish people are happy enough with this situation though there has never been a survey carried out (can you imagine a Red C poll in the Irish Times asking the title of this thread?)
It seems to be contingent on The united States and it's allies that no one is allowed to utter the E word.
Anyway like the ancient tribes in Roman times we have benefitted economically and enjoy a life style as a result of our links with the U.S. economy that our grandparents/greatgrandparents could only have dreamed of.
However America's "War on Terror." and our part in it (albiet passivly) is deeply worrying.
America's enemies are not our enemies The Republic of Ireland happily has no international foes but if we continue to support America's neo-colonial programme we might well make some.
Empires don't really have allies they have servants which makes the arrangement pretty one sided. If we're told to do something and don't show sufficient enthuiasm it'll be the U.S. saying "I wasn't askin' "
Ireland has been close to the United States of America for over half a century but nowadays we're practically within it. (as is the U.K.) If we're happy with that, then fine, if not, well that's tough.
Thanks again to everyone.

ckristo2

Just a quick resurrection of this thread because of an article I saw in the current issue of Phoenix page 6.
It quotes Tom Clonan special correspondent for the Irish Times as telling a meeting of the campaign for Nuclear Disarament that not only are Irish taxpayers subsidising "America's war on Terror" /Overseas Contingency Operations" to the tune of probably €20 million since 2001 but confirms the presence of a permanent U.S. miltary office at shannon airport.

irish_bob

ckristo2 wrote: »

I started this thread a number of weeks ago and many thanks to all those who both read and contributed to it.
As anyone who has read my own pieces can ascertain I do indeed believe there is an American empire and we are indeed inside it's umbrella.
I'm sure most Irish people are happy enough with this situation though there has never been a survey carried out (can you imagine a Red C poll in the Irish Times asking the title of this thread?)
It seems to be contingent on The united States and it's allies that no one is allowed to utter the E word.
Anyway like the ancient tribes in Roman times we have benefitted economically and enjoy a life style as a result of our links with the U.S. economy that our grandparents/greatgrandparents could only have dreamed of.
However America's "War on Terror." and our part in it (albiet passivly) is deeply worrying.
America's enemies are not our enemies The Republic of Ireland happily has no international foes but if we continue to support America's neo-colonial programme we might well make some.
Empires don't really have allies they have servants which makes the arrangement pretty one sided. If we're told to do something and don't show sufficient enthuiasm it'll be the U.S. saying "I wasn't askin' "
Ireland has been close to the United States of America for over half a century but nowadays we're practically within it. (as is the U.K.) If we're happy with that, then fine, if not, well that's tough.
Thanks again to everyone.

americas enemys are in many ways irelands enemys

Manic Moran

ckristo2 wrote: »

but confirms the presence of a permanent U.S. miltary office at shannon airport.

There's also a permanent US military office in Ballsbridge. What of it?

How do they figure $20m since 2001?

NTM

Capt'n Midnight

irish_bob wrote: »

americas enemys are in many ways irelands enemys

Do you remember the beef exports to the middle east ?

Many of the enemies of america / the west were created by the Americans pissing off local people. Don't forget that Bin Laden was trained by the CIA and the rebels in Afganistan were supported by the US, look at Irangate, look at any number of anti-communist groups that were or became terrorists that were US funded.

ckristo2

There's a U.S. embassy in Ballsbridge who's function is to represent the interests of the United States and it's citizens in Ireland. Now that I come to think of it, there are many embassies in Ireland representing the interest of their nations.
Can you name any other country that has a permanent military base in this country used to assist it in the conduct of a war?
Irish tax payers have paid the landing charges of U.S. military aircraft since 2001 and paid for the Irish Aviation Authority to purchase navigation equipment requested by the U.S. Air Force. from 2001 to 2004 this had amounted to €3.6 million. The aviation authority has refused to release more recent figures. But we've probably forked out close to €20 million at this stage to support the U.S. war on whatever they're calling it now.

Manic Moran

There's a U.S. embassy in Ballsbridge who's function is to represent the interests of the United States and it's citizens in Ireland. Now that I come to think of it, there are many embassies in Ireland representing the interest of their nations.

The reason I mention it is that the military attache in Dublin has been there under the terms of an agreement for years. A military person in Shannon stationed to aid in the movement of military persons to/from the US seems, to me, to be covered under the terms of the Air Navigation and Transport (Pre-inspection) act of 1986. Awfully forward-thinking, those Americans, sorting this out fifteen years before invading Afghanistan.

Can you name any other country that has a permanent military base in this country used to assist it in the conduct of a war?

UK? :P (OK, just prodding at some other posters)

Arguably any country which has a military attache in Dublin could count. After all, military attaches tend not to be interested in police or agricultural details, they're there for military purposes.

Irish tax payers have paid the landing charges of U.S. military aircraft since 2001 and paid for the Irish Aviation Authority to purchase navigation equipment requested by the U.S. Air Force. from 2001 to 2004 this had amounted to €3.6 million.

The financial situation at Shannon is a little convoluted. For example, Aer Rianta was responsible for the expenses involved in building the pre-clearance area at Shannon, not the US Government. On the other hand, the airport could then recoup the additional costs from the airlines which chose to use it as an additional fee. Even at that, the waiving of fees for military-related aircraft is pretty much a common practise across Europe (As far as I know, only Moldova, Finland, Austria and Switzerland do not).

Why, you may ask, would they waive the fees? (If you don't want to work on the basis of 'well, most everyone else does it?)

Perhaps because of the money? Let's assume that the figure is, indeed, the E20 million. Yet, by comparison, in a mere three months (Jan-Mar 2006) Shannon airport netted E14million by way of military flights. Over E100m in the four years prior to that. No small amount of change entering the country, and no small amount of taxes coming in either.

Now, I guess the country could just keep the E20m (which never even left the country to begin with), but that would mean that it wouldn't have gotten the triple-digit income it got back.

As far as navigation equipment is concerned, I doubt it is of a specific type used only by military aircraft given that the majority of troop movements are by commercial carriers. I'm sure that the navigation upgrade is happily used by Aer Lingus, Ryanair, and any other airline which happens to fly through Irish airspace.

NTM

ckristo2

I don't understand how Aer Rianta could gain any revenue from Military Flights (from any country) If we waive landing charges. I doubt that the chocolate bars and coffee the individual soldiers buy would amount to €14 million (refueling would be to the advantage of the companies that service the aircraft not Aer Rianta) Maybe you know something more.
A military attache attached to an embassy is very different from a permanent military base (especially one used for the purposes of conducting a war) I'm not a lawyer but a country that uses (and is allowed to use) their consular privileges to move troops and weapons through a neutral country, neutral in so far as we're not part of the War on..whatever it's been re-branded to nowadays. Is a gross abuse of those privileges.
You must check out the Phoenix article but knowing the sensitive (and highly secretive) nature of the U.S. military I'm sure the navigation equipment was purchased for them and them alone.
at the end of the day maybe most Irish people are happy with part of our country being used as a parking space for the U.S. military but the $64,000 question is what would happen if we ever wanted to close down this base? the point is we have no choice in this arrangement. In certain areas this country takes it's orders from Deh Big Boss and it's not Brian Cowen.

Manic Moran

ckristo2 wrote: »

I don't understand how Aer Rianta could gain any revenue from Military Flights (from any country) If we waive landing charges.

It's the ATC charges that are waived as far as I know, the landing fees are still paid. However, Shannon still gets all the fees associated with servicing an aircraft that it would get from a civilian network, from fuel through janitorial, either directly or indrectly through the contracting companies. (Or triply indirectly from the taxes on the profits of the contracting companies) The US military flights have been the difference between Shannon running a profit and running a loss for several of the last few years.

I doubt that the chocolate bars and coffee the individual soldiers buy would amount to €14 million

For the record, I spent about E130 at Shannon when I stopped off (Bottle of Middleton's and an Irish Coffee). If 200,000 travellers (less than one year's worth) spent the same amount, there's $24m...

OK, I'm being facaetious. Most soldiers don't have my taste in whiskey, and of course only a small fraction of that goes to the airport.

Still...see, for example, this problem from 2006. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aDc0ZN.p9uz8&refer=europe. Couple of select quotes:

The soldiers threw a financial lifeline to Shannon. Military landing fees at Shannon, which had a profit of 2.5 million euros last year, generated revenue of 9 million euros.

<snip>

``It's adding to the anxiety in the area about Shannon's future,'' said Brendan Daly, 66, a senator in Ireland's parliament and a resident of County Clare, where the airport is located. ``We just need more bodies, wearing uniforms or not.''

Alternatively, from that wonderfully biased site named 'indymedia,' they're estimating the profits for Shannon at E27-37m.
https://www.indymedia.ie/article/76510

Irish Times estimates E7m in the first nine months of last year.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1106/1225893547102.html

Either way, the airport's making more money than is being waived in fees.

a permanent military base (especially one used for the purposes of conducting a war)

We obviously have a difference of opinion on the concept of a military base. I thought they had an office for the ease of transport of personnel to and from the US, pursuant to the agreement made in 1986. That a few of the American agents wear camoflauge and not dark blue is not particularly an issue as far as the agreement works.

You must check out the Phoenix article but knowing the sensitive (and highly secretive) nature of the U.S. military I'm sure the navigation equipment was purchased for them and them alone.

Something of an assumption, no? (Says he who was so disgusted with the Army-issue GPS system that, like everyone else, he bought his own Garmin to get himself around Iraq)

question is what would happen if we ever wanted to close down this base? the point is we have no choice in this arrangement. In certain areas this country takes it's orders from Deh Big Boss and it's not Brian Cowen.

I think most Irish people are quite pleased with the extra benefits that tend to come from the offices that the US government has in Shannon and Dublin Airports. You'll have a few irked tourists if they got closed down.

NTM

ckristo2

Something of an assumption, no? (Says he who was so disgusted with the Army-issue GPS system that, like everyone else, he bought his own Garmin to get himself around Iraq)
Que? or should I say Mahta?





NTM[/QUOTE]
Merciful God!
You've certainly put a lot of work into this.
I'm sure Shannon Airport and those who work there have made money as a result of the U.S. military personnel that come through there (or are apparently stationed there)
But that's largely Shannon's gain. The average taxpayer in Dublin is getting nothing and probably paying tax to "service" American foreign policy.
Though if you think about it. We are not at war with the people of iraq or Afghanistan but we're contributing to that war ...because we're being paid to do so....now what does that make us?
A military base is a post or station manned by permanent military personnel on duty carrying out the orders of (in this case I presume the Pentagon) not the Department of Defense. No Consular military attaches or convenient clearing offices here. I'm afraid we've tested positive for a full blown military base on Irish soil. We finally got the bug.
I wonder does Brian Cowen and Nuri Al Malaki and Mohamet Kharsi and King Abdulllah of Saudi Arabia meet for some kind of Annual foot servants party every year thrown by the United States.

ckristo2

ckristo2 wrote: »

Something of an assumption, no? (Says he who was so disgusted with the Army-issue GPS system that, like everyone else, he bought his own Garmin to get himself around Iraq)
Que? or should I say Mahta?





NTM

Merciful God!
You've certainly put a lot of work into this.
I'm sure Shannon Airport and those who work there have made money as a result of the U.S. military personnel that come through there (or are apparently stationed there)
But that's largely Shannon's gain. The average taxpayer in Dublin is getting nothing and probably paying tax to "service" American foreign policy.
Though if you think about it. We are not at war with the people of iraq or Afghanistan but we're contributing to that war ...because we're being paid to do so....now what does that make us? :eek:
A military base is a post or station manned by permanent military personnel on duty carrying out the orders of (in this case I presume the Pentagon) not the Department of Defense. No Consular military attaches or convenient clearing offices here. I'm afraid we've tested positive for a full blown military base on Irish soil. We finally got the bug.
I wonder does Brian Cowen and Nuri Al Malaki and Mohamet Kharsi and King Abdulllah of Saudi Arabia meet for some kind of Annual foot servants party every year thrown by the United States.[/quote]