FIA to re-open Hamilton/Trulli inquiry

Irishshin

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74137

I have no idea if this an April Fools or not
It sounds pretty serious to be an April Fools though!

amacachi

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/4/9107.html

I said to my dad and in another thread at the time (I think) that the timing screens seemed to show that Hamilton passed under the Safety car. Then it showed Trulli ahead again. So I don't know exactly what the rules are.

If Hamilton passed him under the safety car then Trulli retook the position the penalty should be overturned. I can't see anything wrong with Hamilton's version of events unless he drove straight past him on the track. In the article I posted it says something about pit lane regulations, which I don't see as being relevant unless I've missed part of the story.

Firewalkwithme

It just goes to show how overly complex the regs have become when what should be a relatively straightforward call for a team and / or the stewards to make has to be analyzed like this.

amacachi

Also from what I gather the FIA only make their rulings based on the three sector timing posts, which is just silly.

jhegarty

Nothing on bbc about it. The lastest they have is this : http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7976287.stm

I smell an april fools.

EvilMonkey

Toyota had to say the were appealing that day or the wouldn't be able to. They now realise they have no case so its been dropped.

vectra

As Posted on Formula one News .

The FIA has announced that it is to review its decision to penalise Toyota's Jarno Trulli in last Sunday's Australian Grand Prix, by calling Lewis Hamilton to the stewards' office in Malaysia. The Italian driver lost third place and six points when handed with a 25-second time penalty for passing the McLaren under safety car conditions in the dying minutes of the race.

The incident began shortly after the deployment of the second and last safety car of the race, as Trulli ran off the track at Turn 15. He duly re-passed the McLaren, with the safety car still circulating, to retake the third position, for which the FIA imposed the penalty later in the evening. A twist in the story occurred, however, when Hamilton admitted that his team called for him to let the Toyota driver retake his podium position, with Trulli claiming that the McLaren slowed and moved off line, as if retiring from the race.

It has now emerged, however, that the World Champion explained to race stewards in Australia that he did not deliberately yield to the Toyota, despite seemingly telling SpeedTV the opposite just minutes before. "I was behind Trulli under the safety car, and clearly you're not allowed to overtake under the safety car," Hamilton explained before seeing the stewards. "But Trulli went off in the second to last corner - he went onto the grass, I guess his tyres were cold. I was forced to go by. I slowed down as much as I could but I was told to let him back past, but I don't know if that's the regulations and, if it isn't, then I should have really had third."

The governing body has also received a copy of McLaren's radio communications from the race, which was not available to race stewards on Sunday night. It is now looking more likely that - if Hamilton is judged to have changed his story - Trulli will reclaim his podium finish, and could mean the Englishman finishes further down the order taking his original fourth position.

Woden

On bbc sport there now

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7978186.stm

Stripped of the podium finish and points

There was a great quote in the news box on the story earlier along the lines of "No point in getting up to watch the races these days. Just follow the various news outlets through the week to get the final result". I chuckled.

krahsrekop

I see hamilton has been demoted from the podium. He slowed down and trulli had no option but to pass him out.

Dcully

krahsrekop wrote: »

I see hamilton has been demoted from the podium. He slowed down and trulli had no option but to pass him out.

Im delighted for him and even happier for Trulli.

Ping Chow Chi

seems to be a waste of time watching the race live anymore, I think that the winning teams cars is a subject of an appeal and could lose them.

krahsrekop

Yeah i mean it could end up with trulli being the winner in Australia after being demoted then reinstated again. That's if the appeal against the Brawn GP cars rear diffuser is won although i think there might be an appeal in against Toyota aswell so that could mean Fernando Alonso being given the race win.

Dcully

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

seems to be a waste of time watching the race live anymore, I think that the winning teams cars is a subject of an appeal and could lose them.

I dont know about you but apart from any potential results i watch it for the racing, the speed, the spectacle, the results are secondary.
Oncce the drivers are racing eachother im happy

thebman

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

seems to be a waste of time watching the race live anymore, I think that the winning teams cars is a subject of an appeal and could lose them.

Its only the first race of the year. Give them a chance to sort out the issues. They will always try to run it as close as possible.

It was a great race, personally I think the afters makes it more entertaining for people that don't watch F1. Keeps it in the media and they will want to know what all the controversy is about and might watch the next race to see if there is more.

smooch71

Hamiltons been disqualified

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74146

thebman

Yeah from reading about it, it was deserved if he was lying to the governing body.

Firewalkwithme

It seems that there were a series of mistakes made both on and off the track during the race that led to Hamilton and McLaren making the final fatal mistake of misleading the stewards. It's a shame races have to be decided this way but F1 has always had a peculiar way of doing things. I wonder what would have happened to Hamilton and Trulli had Hamilton not misled the stewards?

vectra

I dont think they were harsh enough.
They should have also banned Mclaren for at least the next 2 races for Lying to the FIA and trying their cheating tactics again :mad:

jhegarty

At this stage is getting hard to tell the difference between watching a f1 race and watching Judge Judy.

vectra

jhegarty wrote: »

At this stage is getting hard to tell the difference between watching a f1 race and watching Judge Judy.

Hahhaa

Very true

amacachi

krahsrekop wrote: »

Yeah i mean it could end up with trulli being the winner in Australia after being demoted then reinstated again. That's if the appeal against the Brawn GP cars rear diffuser is won although i think there might be an appeal in against Toyota aswell so that could mean Fernando Alonso being given the race win.

No it won't, the results of the first two races won't be affected by any ruling on the diffusers, and Toyota were already punished for their rear wing issues and punished accordingly.


On topic, Christ that was stupid from Hamilton and McLaren. I'd be surprised if there's no further penalties.

Biro

amacachi wrote: »

No it won't, the results of the first two races won't be affected by any ruling on the diffusers, and Toyota were already punished for their rear wing issues and punished accordingly.


On topic, Christ that was stupid from Hamilton and McLaren. I'd be surprised if there's no further penalties.

Hamilton doesn't surprise me that he lied, but it's getting to be a pain in the ass all this deciding outside the ring, so to speak.

Irishshin

It was very stupid of McClaren / Hamilton to withhold info.
Very glad that Trulli got his place back.

G-Money

Regardless of what happened, I'm getting pretty fed up with results of qualifying and races changing hours, days and weeks after the event. It's getting to the point now where you can watch the coverage but sure you can't be sure the result is going to stay the same the following day.

It's going to ruin the sports credibility if they can't have it so a race finishes and the results stand. At the moment its always one thing or another. It's really starting to do my head in.

jhegarty

grandmaster wrote: »

Regardless of what happened, I'm getting pretty fed up with results of qualifying and races changing hours, days and weeks after the event. It's getting to the point now where you can watch the coverage but sure you can't be sure the result is going to stay the same the following day.

It's going to ruin the sports credibility if they can't have it so a race finishes and the results stand. At the moment its always one thing or another. It's really starting to do my head in.

They should have left the result stand and baned him from the next race.

That way he gets punished and I didn't waist getting up at 6am last weekend.

jhegarty

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Considering last years championship was won by a single point, leaving the result would mean that Lewis would get 6 free WC points.

Well 5 points because I didn't penalize Truilli after the race either.


He drove to those points failry , his crime was only lying to the FIA after the race.

It would a different matter if did something that caused him to finish in that place. Like if he was caught taking a shortcut , or putting sugar in another drives tank.

Now possibly it should be a 2, 3 or 4 race ban, but please leave the result of the race alone whenever possible.

v10

To be honest after listening to both radio conversations on youtube and then reading what Hamilton told the stewards after the race, I not suprised he was disqualified. Their (Hamilton & McLaren) penaly is deserved if you ask me.

.. But I do believe the stewards are becoming a bit too strict on racing incidents and the penalty given to Vettel is too harsh .. I don't believe that accident was caused by Vettel any more than Kubica. They need to realise that these are not road traffic accidents and stop trying to find fault/balme in every case.

Otherwise, I really enjoyed the race and am looking forward to the rest of the season.

v10

I Just uploaded this to youtube (might not last long!)

.. a little biased I think :rolleyes:

lovinit

Could not have happened to a nicer guy:)

BoardsRanger

v10 wrote: »

.. But I do believe the stewards are becoming a bit too strict on racing incidents and the penalty given to Vettel is too harsh .. I don't believe that accident was caused by Vettel any more than Kubica. They need to realise that these are not road traffic accidents and stop trying to find fault/balme in every case.

+1!! I am still adamant that Vettel didnt deserve that penalty. We want to watch racing. Crashes happen in racing and somebody needs to inform the stewards of that!

EvilMonkey

I said it before if their is going to be closer racing sometimes the cars will crash.
The other thing i don't get why couldn't the race stewards look at everything before making their decision? It seems stupid that only the FIA have access to all the data available and the race stewards who make the initial decisions don't.

v10

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The other thing i don't get why couldn't the race stewards look at everything before making their decision? It seems stupid that only the FIA have access to all the data available and the race stewards who make the initial decisions don't.

Ye agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that Hamilton/McLaren misled the stewards .. if they had the radio data etc before it would have just meant Lewis didnt get a chance to tell porky pies.

Tau

Apparently McLaren didn't actually initially appeal being in 4th place. They were called to a meeting of the stewards and then lied at it. This doesn't really back up the idea that they were out to screw Trulli.

It seems to me that they realised that Hamilton was incorrect to let Trulli back past (which he was by my reading of the rules), and could see 25 second bans coming. Let's be fair, the stewards haven't got the best record for fairness.

To be honest, this attitude would be justified by what the stewards subsequently did to Trulli (which was completely over the top, even if he had illegally passed Hamilton).

Slutmonkey57b

Jeezus. Hamilton is a big dirty liar apparently. What lie did he tell exactly? They won't tell us, but they WILL state he's a big fat liar.

I'm not defending Hamilton here, but for everyone in this thread that commented "he lied to the stewards", please tell us
exactly what lie he told, as I haven't been able to find that out anywhere. The stewards are quite happy to sling muck at him, but have decided that they don't need to back that up with any information.

• Trulli went off the track.
• Hamilton went past him, as he can't exactly stop the car and wait to see if Trulli gets back on.
• As far as Hamilton is aware, the rules state if Driver A loses control of his car under the safety car, Driver B is allowed to pass him and tough titty.
• Hamilton discusses what to do with the team.
• The team repeatedly try to get an answer from the officials as to what they should do.
• They don't get an answer and decide to play it safe, telling Hamilton to let him pass again.
• Trulli passes back to 3rd, but isn't sure he's allowed to and isn't sure if Hamilton is letting him past.
• Mass confusion in the commentary box as the race official's own boards show that Trulli passed under the safety car and that's illegal.
• FIA and stewards hold an enquiry and decide Trulli shouldn't have passed, so he gets demoted.
• Toyota appeal then decide they don't have cause to appeal so they give it up.
• FIA have another hearing and change their minds again as they didn't actually investigate minor things like car telemetry the first time, and that part of the radio discussions weren't submitted. Despite the 2 guys who received the radio discussions being on the initial enquiry and evidently forgot about it.

Great. You know what the only logical conclusion here is?
Neither Trulli nor Hamilton nor the teams knew what the **** the rules were going to be. When they tried to find out, the officials didn't answer. When the officials looked into it, they didn't bother looking at minor evidence like "car telemetry". Having made an arse of it, they then made a bigger arse of it, and blamed one of the drivers, having previously blamed the other driver. They also made a bodge of the Kubica/Vettel decision - applying a harsh 10 place penalty for something that wasn't Vettel's fault, and applying a minor penalty for the much more serious offence of driving around with half your car falling off when you know you're supposed to pull over, in the hope of cheating some points out of it.

All this is the fault of the totally harebrained stewards and race directors who have spent the past few years making totally random decisions that don't mesh with the rules, aren't consistent, and aren't decisive. The teams, drivers and fans are all left to wonder what the **** is going on after every race. Drivers are always going to make mistakes, or chance their arm. It's up to the race officials to run the races, and they're not doing it. Shower of muppets.

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

I'm not defending Hamilton here, but for everyone in this thread that commented "he lied to the stewards", please tell us
exactly what lie he told,

He told the stewarts that he was NOT instructed to allow Trulli re-pass him... He got greedy and saw the chance of ONE extra point.

v10

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

.. please tell us exactly what lie he told, as I haven't been able to find that out anywhere ..

from here:
The statement said: “During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the stewards and the race director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his team manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake.

“Both the driver and the team manager stated that no such instruction had been given.

“The race director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so.

---

I don't think theres any denying he lied ...

EvilMonkey

v10 wrote: »

Ye agreed, but it doesn't change the fact that Hamilton/McLaren misled the stewards .. if they had the radio data etc before it would have just meant Lewis didnt get a chance to tell porky pies.

Of course, what they did in lying to gain a place is one thing but allowing Trulli to be punished unfairly is despicable.

@Slutmonkey57b like i said the whole thing is a joke the stewards that gave out the initial punishment didn't have access to all the data so they could never make a fully informed decision.

Firewalkwithme

v10 wrote: »

from here:
The statement said: “During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the stewards and the race director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his team manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake.

“Both the driver and the team manager stated that no such instruction had been given.

“The race director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so.

---

I don't think theres any denying he lied ...

I would like to know if the stewards meeting is recorded to provide evidence to support their claim. If not then their evidence is nothing more than hearsay isn't it?

Slutmonkey57b

Hmmmm... so the stewards say they didn't know at the first hearing what the radio instructions were.

But the race director and the FIA rep who were at the hearing had already been given copies of the audio. Did they forget or something? They wanted to know what the team said to the driver, but didn't bother to listen to the perfect copy they already had? The audio is pretty clear - the Team told the driver to let him past, then told him to stay in front, then told him to let him past. Why? Because nobody knows the rules anymore.

Trulli wasn't pulled out of third because of what Hamilton said in a meeting - he was pulled out of third because the stewards ruled him passing Hamilton under the safety car was illegal. The race director and the stewards apparantly don't even know what's going on in their own ****ing race now and are relying on Hamilton and Trulli to tell them what the regulations say. Hamilton's offence has nothing to do with whether Trulli's overtake was illegal or not.

Hamilton is to be punished for unsportsmanlike conduct - seems reasonable.
But if Trulli's overtake was illegal according to the rules, why isn't he also being stripped of third? Surely Glock belongs in Third now?

Why aren't Red Bull (as opposed to just their driver) being punished for keeping a car on the track with only 3 wheels when they knew they should have pulled over there and then?

Let's assume Hamilton is found guilty of all counts and banned from the sport forever.

That won't change the fact that the stewards and officials are untrustworthy, inconsistant, clueless muppets who can be guaranteed to make the wrong decision every time.

v10

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

That won't change the fact that the stewards and officials are untrustworthy, inconsistant, clueless muppets who can be guaranteed to make the wrong decision every time.

To be honest, I reckon they get it right most times. But sure you'll never get everyone to agree.

Firewalkwithme

To me is seems that if his intent was to attain 3rd place then he should have just stayed ahead of him on track. I don't understand what McLaren thought they would gain if they did indeed 'mislead' the stewards since by my reckoning Trulli should not have re-passed Hamilton unless he had come to a complete stop on track or run off the road under the safety car. Since we have heard the McLaren radio transmission, it would be very interesting to hear what Toyota thought of the situation from their point of view.

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Trulli wasn't pulled out of third because of what Hamilton said in a meeting - he was pulled out of third because the stewards ruled him passing Hamilton under the safety car was illegal. The race director and the stewards apparantly don't even know what's going on in their own ****ing race now and are relying on Hamilton and Trulli to tell them what the regulations say. Hamilton's offence has nothing to do with whether Trulli's overtake was illegal or not.

Trulli's pass was not illegal if Hamilton slowed and let him by How was Trulli to know Hamilton didn't have a problem?
Trulli's pass was illegal if he went off the track and just passed Hamilton to take his position back.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Hamilton is to be punished for unsportsmanlike conduct - seems reasonable.
But if Trulli's overtake was illegal according to the rules, why isn't he also being stripped of third? Surely Glock belongs in Third now?

No see above.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Why aren't Red Bull (as opposed to just their driver) being punished for keeping a car on the track with only 3 wheels when they knew they should have pulled over there and then?

Why didn't the stewards give him a black flag?

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

That won't change the fact that the stewards and officials are untrustworthy, inconsistant, clueless muppets who can be guaranteed to make the wrong decision every time.

Although disappointing it seems the correct decision was made in the end!

Funnily none of this would have happened if McLaren knew the rules and didn't play it safe and tell Hamilton to concede the place. They caused this mess, the stewards made a balls of it but ultimately its the McLaren teams fault.

jhegarty

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Why didn't the stewards give him a black flag?

Very good question. I remember Schumacher been black flagged over very minor car damage.