Hello - Film Camera, Newbie Question

parko202

Hi all, I have been browsing this forum for a while after purchasing a dslr and picked up a few of great tips. After a quick search and checking the stickies am still a bit unsure about what to look for in a film camera. I am looking for quite a cheap second hand film camera, preferably under 100e and very portable as I am getting it for day to day use, when I would be worried i would damage the dslr. Any information on what to look for rather than simply models would be great as I don't want to buy one in rubbish condition. Thanks in advance for any replies!

njburke

Depending on the manufacturer of your DSLR, the lenses and flash you may already have for the DSLR may also operate on and older film body.

parko202

its a nikon d40 i know there are some things about autofocus issues but not entirely sure about it. Just want to get a film camera because I want to understand it from the film side aswell as opposed to simply digital. Kind of like driving an automatic and manual car!

CabanSail

There are quite a few SLR cameras for sale at quite cheap prices. Becasue you have Nikon DSLR I would suggest that you look for a Nikon SLR. This is because the ergonomics of the Nikons has remained much the same over the years, with a certain amount of evolution. Most of the controls on my 1989 F801 body were still in much the same places on my D70s when I got it. This has continued to my D300 now. Any lenses you get with a Nikon 35mm SLR will still fit your D40, with varying functionality depending on age.

If you are buying privately, then you are taking a bit of a risk as it will ussually be sold "as is". I would have a general look to assess the general condition of the camera, if it has batteries look into the battery compartment for signs of corrosion. Then open it up & make sure that the shutter is functioning. Take off the lens & observe the reflex mirror operates. Then use your gut instinct.

You can purchase used gear from some Camera Shops (Conns & Camera Exchange spring to mind) & while they will be more expensive than a private sale you will normally get some sort of warranty with it. It should be long enough to run a few rolls of film through & see that it's all working.

Good luck

parko202

Thanks Cabansail for the information. I was a bit wary of buying from ebay etc due to the fact that I wouldn't be able to physically have a look at it so I think I will hang on for a while to get one from the shops you mentioned. A friend has an old olympus m1 which I like but imagine they would be quite difficult to find here.

njburke

Heres the little I know,
The D40 doesn't have AF drive motor, this motor is mechanically couple to older nikon AF (AF-D) lens and is used focus the lens at a particular distance. The d40 is only capable of providing electrical drive to nikon AFS lens.

Some Nikon film bodies such as the F70 I have will drive either AF or AFS lens, as some nikon digital bodies (d50,d70,d80,d90, d*00) will also drive both types of lens.

I assume the lens you have is the 18-55 kit lens, this is a AFS DX - G lens,
if you put this on a nikon film body like the f70 (circa 1994, 50 euros or less these days) you will get an image like this one.

taken with F70, AFS- 18-70 G



The dx lens will not produce an image circle large enough to cover the area of a 35mm film frame hence the dark corners (vignetting).
It will auto focus.

You will be limited in the program modes, as there is no manually adjustable aperture ring on a a Nikon G lens, and the F70 design expects the user to adjust this ring to set the aperture and darn it with a G lens it just isn't there.

That nifty fifty, 50 1.8 D (100 + euros )is a very good lens, had you a old film body, it would be very useful, you could also put it on your d40 but you'ld need to use your fingers to focus it will keeping an eye in the viewfinder for the little focus indicator dot.

parko202

I actually went into gunns yesterday looking for the 50mm lens and am just waiting for them to get them back in stock. Had a quick look on conns website and saw the f50 for 130, i presume the extra cost is due to buying from a shop etc, where did you pick your f70 up from? if you don't mind me asking as I quite like the look of that picture.

njburke

It came in a camera bag of film gear, which I bought just for the lenses and filter in the bag. When I had a hold of it and looked through the huge bright viewfinder, I figured I'ld try a few rolls through it, as a camera it has features that my D70S does not,it meters with any piece of glass I fit on it and I have some oddball lenses. And from using the D70s, it easy to use, the symbols and functionality are familiar, which is justas well as the manual was in dutch:D

Have a look in the photographic section of adverts and of course the large online auction site. At the prices they go for they're near disposable, hopefully I'll be in a small boat out near some seals at the weekend with the f70 and a lens that there'll be no tears over if it goes over the side.

Oh yeah, I went for a wander yesterday at lunch times, the camera exchange have a boxed f90 for 150 euros in trinity street, there other shop had an even nicer N90s (F90x to the European market) with the vertical battery grip, 179 euros. I tested it with my old telephoto and realised the meter readings were crazy, the older man in the shop (who said he has an f90 himself) said they'ld have it repaired (lens coupling contacts) and give me a call back then.

OP, if you look on my pix.ie site, click on that image above should bring you there, theres an album called canal walk, I brought he d70s and the F70 film camera to see what film would be like compared to CCD. The crowd that developed the film gave me back some lousy scanning resolution but I''l scan it again in a decent film scanner as I'm curious to see how much detail a 35mm neg/slide can hold.
The DSC images are from the d70 and the CVN are the lousy scans.

NJ

+1 to what Cabansail said on the warranty from the local photoshops etc.

DaireQuinlan

parko202 wrote: »

where did you pick your f70 up from? if you don't mind me asking as I quite like the look of that picture.

Can we just clear up a bit of a misapprehension here ... the look of a picture taken on a film camera has diddly squat all to do with the camera. Lens and film choice is what dictates what something will look like.

If you're looking to spend about 200, the f80 in conns is a pretty fine camera. You'll probably pay a little more in conns, but you get a chance to look it over before buying plus your 6 months guarantee in return. I think thats worth it, some people might disagree. It'll certainly shoot with your DX lens, as njburke points out though it'll vignette. Possibly not at 55mm though, what did you shoot that at njburke ?

parko202

Oh ok, I knew that lens and film were important but did not know that the actual camera body had so little effect. I am only really looking to spend under 100e, is this unreasonable however?

DaireQuinlan

parko202 wrote: »

Oh ok, I knew that lens and film were important but did not know that the actual camera body had so little effect. I am only really looking to spend under 100e, is this unreasonable however?

Depends on what you want. You can surely pick up an old nikon film body for that. Just make sure to check that it's AFS compatible, the F50 (for example) isn't IIRC, won't AF with AFS lenses. Given that you have a D40 that'll be important. If that F90 that njburke mentions is still in the camera exchange I'd grab it, its a fine camera, and 150 is a pretty good price for it.

trican

I'm in a same position to the op parko202, in that I want to pick up a film camera to compliment my Nikon D80. Most F/N80 and some F/N90 go for about €50 or less on ebay.

Personally I'm also thinking if I go for a film camera I may as well go old school and so I've been checking out the mostly mechanical Nikon FE and the FE2 (early/mid 1980's camera) - manual film advance, manual focus, manual exposure mode and aperture priority mode but no shutter priority mode. FE/FE2 are supposed to be great cameras - but personally I've no idea if they are any better/worse than the F/N80/90. But I'm oddly attracted to the notion of having to rely more heavily on manual controls in something like the FE/FE2, perhaps I'm mad though.

DaireQuinlan

trican wrote: »

I'm in a same position to the op parko202, in that I want to pick up a film camera to compliment my Nikon D80. Most F/N80 and some F/N90 go for about €50 or less on ebay.

Personally I'm also thinking if I go for a film camera I may as well go old school and so I've been checking out the mostly mechanical Nikon FE and the FE2 (early/mid 1980's camera) - manual film advance, manual focus, manual exposure mode and aperture priority mode but no shutter priority mode. FE/FE2 are supposed to be great cameras - but personally I've no idea if they are any better/worse than the F/N80/90. But I'm oddly attracted to the notion of having to rely more heavily on manual controls in something like the FE/FE2, perhaps I'm mad though.

I have an FE-2. They're great little cameras :-) They don't really compare to the later all automated film bodies I think, in an apples and oranges sort of way. I find shooting with my FE-2 to be a pleasure. I miss winding on for example when I shoot with my F100. If you're going down that route get an FE-2 over an FE, or consider an FM if you want total manual control. The FE/2 requires batteries (with one inconvenient exception) , the FMs don't. That said, I just change my FE-2 batteries once a year and even that is just to be on the safe side, they seem to last for ever.

trican

Thanks Daire for the advice! I'm definitely leaning in the direction of the FE-2, now just need to spot a good deal on Ebay.

They don't really compare to the later all automated film bodies I think, in an apples and oranges sort of way.

It would be great if you could elaborate on that (even briefly), and I totally appreciate its apples/oranges and very much a personal thing

njburke

That was shot out at the 70 mm end (theres no exif /tags to confirm, one of the many differences with film/digital), the imaging circle changes as I zoomed the lens with the smallest imaging circle (worst vignetting) at the wide end 18mm, but even with the vignetting I'm getting a wider view than I would get with a DX sensor from the same lense.

DaireQuinlan

trican wrote: »

It would be great if you could elaborate on that (even briefly), and I totally appreciate its apples/oranges and very much a personal thing

I have an F100, which with the exception of the F6 is probably the best film body that nikon ever made ( F5 fans might jump down my throat here but I digress). Its a big chunk of machined magnesium and moulded plastic with matrix metering and 5 AF points and a bunch different program modes and advance modes and 23 custom functions etc etc etc. Then there's the FE2 which is a petite little mostly mechanical masterpiece with centre weighted metering and dials and knobs for everything. Not an LCD or LED in sight. Sure there's nothing you can do with the FE2 that you can't do faster and better with the F100, but sometimes you just want that simplicity when you're out shooting. I have a bunch of manual focus AIS lenses aswell so the FE2 with its split screen is invaluable for them (although I also have an F4 with a split screen which is probably a lot more functional again than the FE2 but weighs about 1 KG)

njburke wrote: »

That was shot out at the 70 mm end (theres no exif /tags to confirm, one of the many differences with film/digital), the imaging circle changes as I zoomed the lens with the smallest imaging circle (worst vignetting) at the wide end 18mm, but even with the vignetting I'm getting a wider view than I would get with a DX sensor from the same lense.

Gotcha. I was just wondering, some of the DX zooms actually cover the full frame toward the narrow end of the range. Evidently the 18->70 isn't one of them

njburke

Agree with you on the F100, I came within 2 quid of owning a clean one with a grip this morning:(. I also appreciate those 60s and 70s electro mechanical cameras, the quality of the engineering stands out on most of the ones I've seen.

Also methinks that someday a back with a FF sensor, SD slot and LCD with nice touchscreen interface will be available.

cnocbui

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

Can we just clear up a bit of a misapprehension here ... the look of a picture taken on a film camera has diddly squat all to do with the camera. Lens and film choice is what dictates what something will look like.

A pinch of salt is required with this recipe.

njburke

well, when you get down to it I find the light reflected from the scene has a huge influence in the recorded image;)

IMHO, the cameras and lenses are just tools or instruments,the quality and capability varies by model, film cameras in particular seem to be no longer as valued as they once were and represent good value on the secondhand market.

Simplicius

I have a F75 which is now my back up body to my F80S ..which is a superb camera, yes the F100 is stronger built but they pretty much match each other in all other ways. Note I think only the F80 and F90 and F5 & F6 have the ability to handle VR. but then again you will have same issue if you are trying to use Nikon D lenses.

Whatever you go for be aware you probably will move around a bit until you settle of one who's ergonomics suit your internal wiring.

I have older Nikon FM, FE and a Nikkormat FTN bodies, love them all for different reasons, FTN especially for street as meter is on top too for pre-focusing.. sweet !

As for the warranty, is it really that critical with a Nikon

trican

For newbies (like myself) the following link might be useful just to double check what lens are compatable with which Nikon film cameras:

http://www.nikonians.org/nikon/slr-lens.html

and I've just realised that older Nikon film camera's such as the FE or FM won't work with newer lens like the DX, i.e. these lens dont have an aperture ring, so at best a default non-changable aperture of f22? will only be available [I think I'm correct there - please correct me if I'm wrong]. Thats a shame, might have to rethink my purchase of one of these :-(

DaireQuinlan

Simplicius wrote: »

I have a F75 which is now my back up body to my F80S ..which is a superb camera, yes the F100 is stronger built but they pretty much match each other in all other ways. Note I think only the F80 and F90 and F5 & F6 have the ability to handle VR. but then again you will have same issue if you are trying to use Nikon D lenses.

I think the F80 is actually better specced than the F100, it postdates it anyhow. Build quality on the F100 is better, I think thats its only real advantage.

trican wrote: »

and I've just realised that older Nikon film camera's such as the FE or FM won't work with newer lens like the DX, i.e. these lens dont have an aperture ring, so at best a default non-changable aperture of f22? will only be available [I think I'm correct there - please correct me if I'm wrong]. Thats a shame, might have to rethink my purchase of one of these :-(

Its not the DX bit, that just means they project a smaller image circle for digital sensors. If the lens is a G lens though it means that it doesn't have that aperture ring on the lens and so can't be used with the manual cameras. A lot of the newer full frame lenses are also G lenses.

parko202

thanks for all the information. So am I correct in thinking that if I was to go for an FE or FM the lenses which suited these models would not suit the d40? I would consider just getting one of these and using them with the lens that they come equipped with. Am looking for the most compact I can really get and definitely want to learn along the way, for some reason I just think that if I am using digital I should understand the basis behind it!

DaireQuinlan

parko202 wrote: »

thanks for all the information. So am I correct in thinking that if I was to go for an FE or FM the lenses which suited these models would not suit the d40? I would consider just getting one of these and using them with the lens that they come equipped with. Am looking for the most compact I can really get and definitely want to learn along the way, for some reason I just think that if I am using digital I should understand the basis behind it!

Well to all intents and purposes, yes thats the case. There are a few AFS lenses that aren't G lenses, but all the ones I can think of are pretty expensive, the 17->35 f/2.8 comes to mind. There are millions of cheap good manual focus and earlier AF and AFD lenses for nikon cameras available on EBay though. Manual focus lenses won't meter on the D40, older AF and AFD lenses will meter on the D40, you'll have to focus manually though. But they'll work perfectly on the FE/FM (and indeed practically every other nikon camera you care to mention). The D40 and D60 are aberrations in a way, designed to cut costs. Essentially compatibility goes like this:

D40/D60 : won't meter with older AIS or AI (MF) lenses, won't AF with AF or AFD lenses but will meter just fine, need AFS lenses to AF (or IF ? Not too sure).

D70/80/90 : won't meter with older AIS or AI lenses, will AF fine with AF/AFD/IF/AIS lenses

D100 and above (D300/D200/D1/D2 etc): Will meter with older lenses. Will
AF with everything.

D3/x D700, as above, but will vignette with DX lenses because they're the two nikon fullframes.

As with everything nikon, there are always little gotchas and exceptions to the above :-)

parko202

I am looking at the nikon f601 on adverts and just wondering would I be able to use the lens that came with the d40 on this body, it does not come with a lens and want to get cracking with it as soon as possible

njburke

Parko202.
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/htmls/models/htmls/slr8991.htm
is a good resource for that camera, you can download the camera and theres a link to its lens compatibility there.

601 seems like a nice camera, brought that F70 out in the boat this afternoon with some slide film in it, seals wouldn't come within range of the lens, twas quite choppy out there, I'm going to need to glue up a bag for it.

Niall

parko202

thanks njburke, I tried that link for the chart and it seems to be dead.

for the lens compatibility it has:

Nikon F mount
Nikkor lenses having VPU contacts, AI-S-type Nikkor lenses*, AI-Nikkor lenses* and AI-modified Nikkor lenses*
* with some limitations


where were you with the seals? i guess your only bet is to get in there with them,never had any problems with them being shy once your in the water!

edit: downloaded the manual, it seems to be compatible,

DaireQuinlan

parko202 wrote: »

thanks njburke, I tried that link for the chart and it seems to be dead.

for the lens compatibility it has:

Nikon F mount
Nikkor lenses having VPU contacts, AI-S-type Nikkor lenses*, AI-Nikkor lenses* and AI-modified Nikkor lenses*
* with some limitations


where were you with the seals? i guess your only bet is to get in there with them,never had any problems with them being shy once your in the water!

edit: downloaded the manual, it seems to be compatible,

Th F-601, like the F-55 , will not AF with AFS lenses. Plus you run into the same problem with all DX lenses on film bodies, it will vignette. Perhaps only at the wide end if its a zoom, but it seems to vary from lens to lens, some are okay at their narrow end, some still vignette.

njburke

I was in, diving on the east side of the muglins, visibility was very good for dublin bay, loads of life, acres of anemones,solasters and crustraceans, couple of conger too. The wrasse and pollack haven't come on yet.

The only housing I have is for a canon A70/A80 and the sensor sensitivity is poor, I used it a couple of times in the red sea. I hope to get some UW photo gear sorted and take a few pics over the summer. I only shot about 18 frames off the roll, I might have a good one of some green water breaking, with film you've just got wait and see.

parko202

ah ok, sounds cool. Friend of mine smashed his water housing the other weekend, I couldn't understand why he was so pissed until i found out how much they were!

Ostrom

Would you consider a rangefinder?

I keep a manual minolta, which is one of my favourites still. It is exclusively aperture priority, with optional 2 stop either side compensation. The meter is great, you can adjust the ISO rating to push it in camera if you want, and the rangefinder focus is an absolute joy.

Metal body, tough but not too heavy....

Try ebay?

I have heard good things about some of the russian cameras for sale