Working in a "mans job"

jellie

I work in an all-male office (except for me!) in a mostly male company - theres a couple of others girls in another office in a different department.

The other day i was discussing it with a guy i work with, how sometimes id like more girls in the office. whatever way the conversation went he said something like "Girls dont really do computers, why did you do computers?" to which i replied "well why did YOU do computers?". It annoyed me for some reason.

Why should i justify my interests because its unusual, and why would my reasoning for choosing computers be any different to his?

I also feel like i need to work harder to prove my intelligence & my ability to do my job. Maybe this is all in my head, im not sure. There are certain guys in the office that have made remarks from time to time that implied that i wouldnt understand something, when in fact i knew exactly what they were talking about & knew they were wrong - cue heated "discussions" - & me being proved correct in the end (obviously im not always right.. but if i dont understand something i have no problem admitting it, not arguing to the death). again, maybe im being oversensitive to the issue because im aware that im the only female.

Discussing it with girls in the other office they find theyre often ignored because theyre girls.

As I said, our company is predominantly male. For the most part the guys are nice enough. Im used to being surrounded by men, & would probably prefer it to an office of girls as theres less chance of bitchiness (though that doesnt mean men arent bitchy on occasion! :P)

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Do you ever feel like you have to work harder* to prove yourself or is it me being silly & oversensitive? Or am i just working with a bunch of idiots? :pac:



*Yes I know being on boards doesnt count as working harder

Edit: Where i said "Theyre often ignored because theyre girls" - maybe its not because theyre girls, but they find theyre often ignored.

ntlbell

sar84 wrote: »

The other day i was discussing it with a guy i work with, how sometimes id like more girls in the office. whatever way the conversation went he said something like "Girls dont really do computers, why did you do computers?" to which i replied "well why did YOU do computers?". It annoyed me for some reason.

Well there is a serious lack of females in IT maybe he was genuinley curious was there a specific reason that you chose that field? It's usually just called taken an interest.

sar84 wrote: »

Why should i justify my interests because its unusual, and why would my reasoning for choosing computers be any different to his?

You don't, maybe he was just trying to have a friendly conversation?

sar84 wrote: »

I also feel like i need to work harder to prove my intelligence & my ability to do my job. Maybe this is all in my head, im not sure. There are certain guys in the office that have made remarks from time to time that implied that i wouldnt understand something, when in fact i knew exactly what they were talking about & knew they were wrong - cue heated "discussions" - & me being proved correct in the end (obviously im not always right.. but if i dont understand something i have no problem admitting it, not arguing to the death). again, maybe im being oversensitive to the issue because im aware that im the only female.

It seems to in YOUR head all right there's very few girls in my job but they seem to try and go out of their way to prove themselves when the reality is the guys don't give a hoot one way or another.

sar84 wrote: »

Discussing it with girls in the other office they find theyre often ignored because theyre girls.

ignored? like you say hello they don't reply? they ignore you at lunch? or they don't get all excited when you come with some fantastic new idea in a meeting? have they said they're ignoring them because they're women? maybe they're just not very interesting women? men get "ignored" too.

sar84 wrote: »

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Do you ever feel like you have to work harder* to prove yourself or is it me being silly & oversensitive? Or am i just working with a bunch of idiots? :pac:

I'd say your working with normal folk but your own insecurities are getting in the way of perception of the true nature of the situation.

I don't think it's because your female tho.

Nevyn

Once upon a time all the working world was like that women were there to do the support work and were utterly interchangible and sure they were only there until they could snag a
husband.

Thankfully a lot of the world has moved on and I know in IT/tech/engineering a woman
being into computers it not strange at all at all.

But in other businesses some old attitudes still remain and women do have to work hard
to over come them and change them.

justsomebloke

sar84 wrote: »

Is anyone else in a similar situation? Do you ever feel like you have to work harder* to prove yourself or is it me being silly & oversensitive? Or am i just working with a bunch of idiots? :pac:

Of course they are idiots, they are a group of men who work in IT chances are most of them don't know what a woman is and probably have even les sknowledge on how to interact with one. Ok so now we have both the men and women who work in IT sterotyped are ye happy.

However IT is a male dominated industry and this is probably due to the sterotypes of the type of people who go into that area. People assume you have to be a loner who spent all their free time in school/college sitting in front of a computer and thus had no social interaction. This sterotype generally put a lot of women off going into the field and thus now it is a mostly male field.

Actually another reason this sterotype of women not knowing anything about computers actually has developed due to how a good proportion of women who have to take computer modules act. I know from my time doing computer as part of my Science degreee that a lot of women would use the fact that they were "just a girl" to get some of their more nerdy male colleges to help do their work for the practicals and it is this sort of behaviour will develop their idea that you are all useless

jellie

ntlbell wrote: »

Well there is a serious lack of females in IT maybe he was genuinley curious was there a specific reason that you chose that field? It's usually just called taken an interest.

It was the tone it was said in

ntlbell wrote: »

You don't, maybe he was just trying to have a friendly conversation?

Weve had many friendly conversations, as i said, it was the tone.

ntlbell wrote: »

It seems to in YOUR head all right there's very few girls in my job but they seem to try and go out of their way to prove themselves when the reality is the guys don't give a hoot one way or another.

Thats fair enough. But it was a genuine question. I was asking if it was in my head or if other WOMEN felt the same way - are you a woman?

ntlbell wrote: »

ignored? like you say hello they don't reply? they ignore you at lunch? or they don't get all excited when you come with some fantastic new idea in a meeting? have they said they're ignoring them because they're women? maybe they're just not very interesting women? men get "ignored" too.

ignored as in not responding to emails, and occasionally actually ignoring input. Ive often found to get a response to emails with questions TO CERTAIN MEN (so as to make sure im not generalising..) I have to add "Can you please reply". its not just me - its the girls in the other office also.

ntlbell wrote: »

I'd say your working with normal folk but your own insecurities are getting in the way of perception of the true nature of the situation.

I don't think it's because your female tho.

insulting me, cheers.

It was a genuine question to the women of the ladies lounge. It was my personal experience.

ntlbell

sar84 wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But it was a genuine question. I was asking if it was in my head or if other WOMEN felt the same way - are you a woman?

no, I'm male.

sar84 wrote: »

ignored as in not responding to emails, and occasionally actually ignoring input. Ive often found to get a response to emails with questions TO CERTAIN MEN (so as to make sure im not generalising..) I have to add "Can you please reply". its not just me - its the girls in the other office also.

Maybe they're just busy working?

sar84 wrote: »

insulting me, cheers.

It was a genuine question to the women of the ladies lounge. It was my personal experience.

Not meant as an insult, just an observation based on your post.

Nevyn

Once upon a time all the working world was like that women were there to do the support work and were utterly interchangible and sure they were only there until they could snag a
husband.

Thankfully a lot of the world has moved on and I know in IT/tech/engineering a woman
being into computers it not strange at all at all.

But in other businesses some old attitudes still remain and women do have to work hard
to over come them and change them.

metamorphic

I think we all work with people who are rude, ignorant, think they're god's gift to their industry or whatever. I have experienced this with both sexes. Some people are just idiots. Whether their reaction is due to you being a woman only they can answer.

My own personal chip on the shoulder is that I've quite a young face and often get mistaken for a younger, therefore less experienced, person. At the least hint of patronisation (is that a word?) I go off on one, citing my years of experience and expertise

Work is tough alright, Just keep highlighting the good work you're doing, no point in being quiet about it, your managers or whatever aren't proactively keeping track I can tell you that much.

b3t4

I work in IT and hear you.

When I move to new department there will be some guys that will bug the sh!t out of me and expect me to fail but on prooving them incorrect the situation improves.

I remember being in a situation during an internship with guys of a similar age to me. I was putting lots of points across as to why a particular slide in a presentation was unnecessary and time wasting (when we didn't have enough time) in a 'discussion' I had with one of the lads of my team where he gave me lots of determined reasons as to why he felt it should be included. He basically refused to see my point of view. In swans the advisor for our group who says the exact same thing as me but it is taken onboard immediately with no questioning (yes, I see how seniority could of been taken into account). There was no acknowledgement in public/private of the fact that I had actually suggested that. I felt dismissed. He was one muppet though. I also found in the team that my points were only taken on board if I could get another male on the team onside before going to the rest of team.

A girlfriend of mine also works in IT and used to work in a call centre for particular important servers. She had a number of men (as it was generally men ringing in) who'd ring up and ask to be put through to someone who could answers questions relating to a server. They assumed she wouldn't have a clue and was merely a secretary. Very frustrating. Women have been prone to take the idea that women wouldn't know about IT as well so it isn't just a male thing.

The majority of guys I work with are grand though and take no more notice of the fact that I'm female. We do have a good balance of male/female in the office in comparison to some companies which helps, being the only female is tough.

I personally think that males and females work better together as a team when there's a good balance. I don't think I've ever seen a team work very well when there is a lack of balance. Both sexes have great things to bring to the table.

A.

jellie

ntlbell wrote: »

Maybe they're just busy working?

replying to emails about work is part of their job.

Cows Go µ

I'm just in college so not really in a job where I'm one of the only girls but I'm currently in my second year in mathematics and all the girls in my class are going to do finance so I will be the only girl and I already am in some classes. I have never found that the guys think I'm not as smart, in fact I think that they think I'm smarter than I am. They expect me to get the answers and help them in some of the classes. I must admit though, I'm terrible at the computer modules and they all know it and I always go to the others for help. Just as they come to me for differential equations and calculus.

Though, from the way you describe it, it does sound like you are treated differently because you are a girl. If it was me, I don't know how I would tolerate it. Because I don't have a serious job and I haven't been in that situation, I'm not sure what to say to help. The only thing I can think of is to continue to prove that you are just as good as the guys and eventually they will realise it, especially if you help them out with things.

ntlbell

sar84 wrote: »

replying to emails about work is part of their job.

It's part of mine but most of the time I have more important things to be doing.

I like to call it prioritising.

The people that don't get a reply call it ignorance.

Cows Go µ

About the email, if there is one guy in particular that doesn't reply. Ask the other men in the office if he replies to them. It could just be that they don't reply to emails in general, not yours in particular

g'em

ntlbell Permabanned from tLL.

hobochris

My gf works In a large Male dominated IT department In a multinational, she's a software developer. She is regarded as one of the best for her level, and better then some of the lead developers. She learns very quickly..

If you feel its your gender holding you back Id have a word with the boss, as It will make the company realize this attitude doesn't fly.

Oryx

Im not in IT, but I do work in a predominantly male workplace, with predominantly male customers. I get asked is 'the boss' in everyday. (Meaning Im obviously not him). I answer questions, and quite often the men asking wait until a man (could be anyone) appears and ask them again, cos they didnt believe my answer. Im just 'the girl'. The sexism is still alive and kicking. Now, granted, younger guys dont do it as much, its often the older more traditional types.

So op, I dont think you may be imagining things. People do it even when instinctively they would not think they hold such old fashioned attitudes.

Scarinae

A quick question for any ladies working in traditionally 'male' jobs like IT - what are the attitudes on things like maternity leave? I know there is a basic legal requirement that they have to give you X amount of time off, but is the perception of women taking maternity leave and needing childcare etc different to how it would be in traditionally 'female' job like nursing?

rainbow kirby

I'm a final year student in a course that's predominantly male (Computer Science). The last two jobs I've had have been in male-dominated workplaces as well.
In both those jobs, I got similar responses to what Oryx did - no matter what I said, quite a few people just wanted to hear it from a man. It's rather annoying - I'm not suddenly worse at my job due to not having a penis. There was one relatively recent group project in college too where a male member of the group insisted that the only thing I was allowed to do as part of it was to debug his code, because apparently "girls can't write code, and are a waste of a space in CS". :mad:

Scarinae

rainbow kirby wrote: »

There was one relatively recent group project in college too where a male member of the group insisted that the only thing I was allowed to do as part of it was to debug his code, because apparently "girls can't write code, and are a waste of a space in CS". :mad:

What a knob! You should write some code for a really nasty computer virus, then find a way to infect his computer with it. Oh yes, that'll learn him - girls can write code, and we're not afraid to use it

jellie

cool, im not going crazy.. i was starting to regret even starting the thread.

its not usually something that bothers me & its never so big as id go to the boss with (though if there was ever something clearly & obviousily sexist id have no problem doing so). its just something ive noticed.

& obviously its not all men. a few actually realise i do have a brain :pac: i know myself i do better work than at least half the men here, im given the bigger projects & more responsibility yet some still seem to look down on me. but i can usually handle it

oh & i can also priortise & do my work as well as replying to emails. multitasking :pac:

rainbow kirby wrote: »

There was one relatively recent group project in college too where a male member of the group insisted that the only thing I was allowed to do as part of it was to debug his code, because apparently "girls can't write code, and are a waste of a space in CS". :mad:

i wouldve been restraining myself from hitting him! he probably wasnt even that good himself..

rainbow kirby

Fishie wrote: »

What a knob! You should write some code for a really nasty computer virus, then find a way to infect his computer with it. Oh yes, that'll learn him - girls can write code, and we're not afraid to use it

Tempting... so very tempting...

SeekUp

Kindof off topic (sorry), but I was just thinking last night about how I have never worked for a man -- or with many men, for that matter. I've pretty much been in publishing one way or another since I started working, and to be honest, have never really thought about fighting to share an idea, or being ignored, or being discriminated against or whether or not it's all in my head.

Although surely these things that might arise for a woman working in a "man's job" vary as much by company as they do by position?

jellie

SeekUp wrote: »

Although surely these things that might arise for a woman working in a "man's job" vary as much by company as they do by position?

probably, ive just never come across it working in typically female jobs.

shellyboo

SeekUp wrote: »

Kindof off topic (sorry), but I was just thinking last night about how I have never worked for a man -- or with many men, for that matter. I've pretty much been in publishing one way or another since I started working, and to be honest, have never really thought about fighting to share an idea, or being ignored, or being discriminated against or whether or not it's all in my head.

Although surely these things that might arise for a woman working in a "man's job" vary as much by company as they do by position?

I work in publishing too, and while it can be male-dominated in places, I don't think there's the same stigma... it's not necessarily a "man's job". I'd go so far as to say that the majority of editors I know are actually women... in fact, it's one of the least sexist industries I've ever worked in.

SeekUp

shellyboo wrote: »

I work in publishing too, and while it can be male-dominated in places, I don't think there's the same stigma... it's not necessarily a "man's job". I'd go so far as to say that the majority of editors I know are actually women... in fact, it's one of the least sexist industries I've ever worked in.

Oh, I definitely agree. I think it's a great atmosphere -- I can't imagine having to deal with all of the extra crap on top of your day-to-day work.

hobochris

There is only one job that's a mans job and that is MALE PORN STAR(we all can dream ),anything else there is no reason(plausible) why a woman shouldn't be able to do the job or have to put up with idiots saying otherwise.

Its all about self belief regardless of gender push yourself and don't let other peoples views hold you back and you will go far.

Fishie wrote: »

A quick question for any ladies working in traditionally 'male' jobs like IT - what are the attitudes on things like maternity leave? I know there is a basic legal requirement that they have to give you X amount of time off, but is the perception of women taking maternity leave and needing childcare etc different to how it would be in traditionally 'female' job like nursing?

personally I believe that this should be given to both men and women, to be fair on every level.

I know that part of the reason for it is for the mother to recover , but I also think for the other part its just as important for the father and child to bond as the mother and child.

/ my 2 cents

Stheno

Fishie wrote: »

A quick question for any ladies working in traditionally 'male' jobs like IT - what are the attitudes on things like maternity leave? I know there is a basic legal requirement that they have to give you X amount of time off, but is the perception of women taking maternity leave and needing childcare etc different to how it would be in traditionally 'female' job like nursing?

Depends on the company tbh, all the companies I have worked in were proactive to varying degrees in terms of health and safety and where female staff thought they were pregnant they were encouraged to contact Occupational Health and have a check up to make sure the environment (even things like foot rests) were suitable.

In my team there are three women and 21 men, most of the blokes are married with kids, and most at some point have had to leave to deal with family emergencies/take time off at short notice to deal with illnesses/take time for parent teacher meetings/mind the kids on holidays, so I'd see that sort of ongoing parental requirement as being something both men and women should be entitled to, as I'd see parental leave being something that should be more freely available.

Fishie wrote: »

What a knob! You should write some code for a really nasty computer virus, then find a way to infect his computer with it. Oh yes, that'll learn him - girls can write code, and we're not afraid to use it

Completely O/T but having had to deal with the consequences of virus outbreaks both personally and in work, I abhor the idea of anyone suggesting that it's a good way to teach someone any kind of lesson.:mad:

Will

Just in response to the original post by sar84, im finishing up a degree in computer applications at the moment.

There are a handful of ladies in the year, rest obviously guys. The amount of stupidity and childishness i see whenever i venture to college is horrendous on behalf of the guys. For example, got a macbook a few years ago, brought it in. Cue the abuse and talking down i got from every corner of the room. Was told that i should have purchased some other alternative because the processor was .2 of a ghz faster or something ridiculous.

Won't even bother going into the bickering that goes on about the stupidest of things.

I suppose all im trying to say is that it seems like nothing changes between college and the work place. The childishness seems to still hang about like a bad smell and the bickering... oh the bickering.

Advice, fight your corner, do your work, ignore the muppets.

side note - did a work placement last summer in the IT sector and all the managers bar one were female. My main manager was the nicest person ever to work for and did all that i could to help her out.

miss no stars

I'm in a very male based course (engineering) and tbh, it's not my classmates that are the problem. It's the older, bigotted lecturers that are.

The other day the class was disrupted for about a full minute by guys laughing at an erection joke :rolleyes:. The lecturer laughed along and was all "ha ha ha isn't that funny but you should be beyond that" so on. A few of the girls were talking while this was on and he decided he was going back to lecturing and said something along the lines of "girls, we really don't need to know who said what and he said this and oh my god did you see her hair?!"

Now. He and the lads were allowed to disrupt the class for an erection joke but the girls were talking for about ten seconds after he went to the top of the class and it was unacceptable. The ironic thing is, they were talking about something on the handout we'd just been given.


It's quite sad actually. The good thing is, I've only found the older people to be like this. They'll retire out of it

nkay1985

Hi,

I did electronic engineering in college where one girl transferred into the class in third year. Everybody else in the class, and the computer engineering one, was male.

I think that girl was treated the exact same as any of the lads. She wasn't the brightest in the class, nor was she the worst. But she wasn't treated as the worst, or the brightest, because she was a girl. She was treated the same as any lad of the same ability.

I now work in IT in a manufacturing facitily. And there are very few females but the ones that are, I would say the same thing about them. They're not given any special treatment one way or the other.

Scarinae

nouggatti wrote: »

Completely O/T but having had to deal with the consequences of virus outbreaks both personally and in work, I abhor the idea of anyone suggesting that it's a good way to teach someone any kind of lesson.:mad:

Um, it was a joke, I thought the and the fact that it was a completely over-the-top suggestion would have made that obvious. Judging by rainbow kirby's response, I think she got that it was a joke, and is unlikely to go on a virus-infecting rampage