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Bord na Móna cannot pay pensions

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  • 02-04-2009 11:44am
    #1
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Well its hardly right to leave them hanging out to dry now....


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    #3
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #4
    ongarite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,252 ✭✭✭ongarite


    Defined benefit pensions are going to be a thing of the past IMO.

    Nearly every semi-state or former semi-state is reporting a large pensions deficit, with all these being based on defined benefit schemes with large pay-outs on retirement.


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    #5
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Well.....it might be a bit of "emotional reasoning" there, but when you look at some of the payoffs to individuals lately, which are either directly or indirectly funded by the taxpayer, it does rather put a moral obligation on them to stump up the shortfall.


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    #6
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,403 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    it looks like they should have mirrored the Bank of England Pension Fund investment strategy, do as I say not as I do comes to mind



    http://www.order-order.com/2009/03/bank-of-england-pension-fund-surges-betting-on-inflation/

    The Bank of England pension fund is managed on behalf of a very select and savvy group of people with access to a lot of market insight - the employees of the central bank. With great market timing the fund sold out of equities entirely at the end of 2006 cutting a 21.6% holding down to 0.1%, thus avoiding a 35% drop in UK equities since that time. Awesome market timing, the fund was consequently up 12% last year when all around markets crashed.

    The fund’s holding of Index Linked Gilts has shot up from 25.6% of assets to a 70.7% proportion of assets during the same period. That is a big bet of the pension pot owned by everyone who works at the Bank of England. Index Linked Gilts are linked to RPI - the inflation rate - you buy them if you are worried about inflation. They are a hedge against inflation.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #7
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #8
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    As the not particularily happy member of a private sector pension scheme, I know. However.....
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Well they aren't going to get 100% of it.....I would presume the Government would throw in enough to get it to 70-75% or thereabouts.


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    #9
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    +1


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    #10
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    Didn't they raid the public sector pension fund to bail out the banks?


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    #11
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Didn't they raid the public sector pension fund to bail out the banks?

    Yep, this is going to blow up in everybody's face in 15 to 20 years or so. "Gilt edged" "gold plated" public service pensions just got less giltier and less goldier.

    It was also there to pay Social Welfare Pensions because they're fncked too.

    Thanks Brians.

    Intellectual powerhouses indeed.


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    #12
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    There were some very pertinent Pension Figures given in the media recently for Departmental General Secretaries.

    Mar Shàmpla,The Current Secretary General of a Government Department would after full service (40 Years ?) have an accrued pension fund of €3.3 Million.
    Of this fund,the individuals contribution will have amounted to €174,000 (INCLUDING the latest levies).
    Upon retirement the Sec General would be entitled to a Lump Sum of €374,000 and an annual pension thereafter of €114,000.

    Not too bad eh.....

    Thankfully my CIE wages grade pension entitlement will be approx €7,200 Per Anum,with a lump sum of approx €12,000 payable IF I forego some of my fund on retirement.

    Phew,thats a relief !


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #13
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Mar Shàmpla,The Current Secretary General of a Government Department would after full service (40 Years ?) have an accrued pension fund of €3.3 Million.
    Of this fund,the individuals contribution will have amounted to €174,000 (INCLUDING the latest levies).
    Upon retirement the Sec General would be entitled to a Lump Sum of €374,000 and an annual pension thereafter of €114,000.
    These figures don't look right.

    If you calculate the net present value of the pension annuity + lump sum @ retirement, I can't see how it could possibly add up to 3.3 mil. People don't live that long. I'd say a better estimate would be around 1.5 million tops.


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    #14
    silverharp
    Registered Users Posts: 18,403 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    could always go down the route taken in Argentina , Nationalise the remaining pension funds , "invest" the funds in gov. debt . win win !



    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apDlwrW9f4c8&refer=home

    Fernandez, 55, announced her plan to take over 10 private pension funds during a speech in Buenos Aires yesterday. She said the proposal would protect retirees from the global financial crisis and denied trying to ``grab the cash'' to pay off debt or to finance new programs or projects. The last time Argentina sought to tap workers' savings was in 2001, just before it halted payments on $95 billion of bonds.

    ``Tapping into the pension funds makes it blatantly obvious that it needs funds,'' said Aryam Vazquez, an emerging markets economist with Wells Fargo & Co. in New York. ``This is bad news any way you look at it.''

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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    #15
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,312 ✭✭✭markpb


    Sean_K wrote: »
    These figures don't look right. If you calculate the net present value of the pension annuity + lump sum @ retirement, I can't see how it could possibly add up to 3.3 mil. People don't live that long. I'd say a better estimate would be around 1.5 million tops.

    I can't find the link now but those figures were published by a reasonably reputable paper a few weeks ago. I presume they take into account the risk factor associated with guaranteed benefits in the future and that pushes the cost up.


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    #16
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,563 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    He's full of ****. Bord na Mona workers do not pay the pension levy as they do not receive a public sector pension - they have their own fund, hence the problems.

    Nodin wrote: »
    it does rather put a moral obligation on them to stump up the shortfall...........

    Well they aren't going to get 100% of it.....I would presume the Government would throw in enough to get it to 70-75% or thereabouts.

    Why should the govt put a penny in? If they want money from the govt, I'm sure they'll be offering to pay the pension levy.....


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    #17
    Thomas_S_Hunterson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    markpb wrote: »
    I can't find the link now but those figures were published by a reasonably reputable paper a few weeks ago. I presume they take into account the risk factor associated with guaranteed benefits in the future and that pushes the cost up.

    They're doing some wonky maths if you ask me.

    Can you remember which paper and what date?


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    #18
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    I can't find the link now but those figures were published by a reasonably reputable paper a few weeks ago. I presume they take into account the risk factor associated with guaranteed benefits in the future and that pushes the cost up.

    Sean K and other interested parties.
    The figures were reported in an Irish Independent article (Sorry no link),but the piece was quoting the research as having been carried out for RTE Radio`s Pat Kenny Today programme (I Think).
    The research was apparently the work of a very well regarded academic ?

    Just found A link,but not THE one I was referring to,however it may assist in the process of evaluation...

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/pensions-perks-and-payouts-tax--public-purse-1640516.html

    Here we are....Fiona Daly,of Rubicon Investment Consulting is the author and RTE are indeed the villanous commissioning body !!

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-pension-worth-836411m-1664588.html

    About half-way down the article for the meaty stuff re Dept Secs General


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #19
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Nodin wrote: »
    Well its hardly right to leave them hanging out to dry now....

    people in IFI which was a joint semi-state/ICI co. were left hanging after that closed.


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