Metro North Oral Hearing

Victor

The Metro North Oral Hearing is underway at the moment.

It is being held in the Celtic Suite (east side, access from St. Joseph's Avenue) at Croke Park. Sittings are generally from 10am to 5pm.

Copies of evidence here: http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_airport_swords/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRailwayOrderOralHearingEvidence.aspx

Purple Gorilla

Is it possible they are already in the practical stages of it? If ya get what I mean?

Was driving home today in Swords and the were lads taking measurements and all that all along where the Metro North is planned to be...all the way along up the motorway

DWCommuter

Wouldn't worry about that. Apparently some lad from the RPA lost a pen a few months back. You saw the search party.

Nostradamus

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Is it possible they are already in the practical stages of it? If ya get what I mean?

Was driving home today in Swords and the were lads taking measurements and all that all along where the Metro North is planned to be...all the way along up the motorway

Apparently so. My bother works for a sub-contractor who did a lot of the pre-engineering work on the LUAS and are still a tender for the RPA and they have started ordering "gear for the Metro gig" from what the Bro tells me.

So fingers crossed.

Victor

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Is it possible they are already in the practical stages of it? If ya get what I mean?

Was driving home today in Swords and the were lads taking measurements and all that all along where the Metro North is planned to be...all the way along up the motorway

The only place where MN crosses a motorway is where it crosses the M50 immediately east of the Ballymun Interchange.

Surveying work has been ongoing for years for various projects.

If it was on the Swords Bypass, it could be connected with the new town centre proposed for over the bypass.

strassenwolf

I am having a bit of difficulty getting access to Mr Rory O'Connor's piece, where he delivers his opinion on the logic of the route of the metro across the city centre, and the logic behind the station locations in this area.

I did see it in the last couple of days, but I can't see it now.

Is anyone else on the board experiencing this problem?

BluntGuy

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Is it possible they are already in the practical stages of it? If ya get what I mean?

Nope. And they most likely won't be for another four/five years.

We don't have the money to build it.

godtabh

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Was driving home today in Swords and the were lads taking measurements and all that all along where the Metro North is planned to be...all the way along up the motorway

Metro West runs along the M50. They are out doing surveys for that at the moment as far as I know

Bluetonic

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Was driving home today in Swords and the were lads taking measurements and all that all along where the Metro North is planned to be...all the way along up the motorway

Could be a number of things they are working on at that section of the R132 (the median at the entrance/exit to the Pavillions) as there is an underpass being built on that spot prior to the Metro North track and a plaza overhead.

Plaza
Underpass

Victor

kearnsr wrote: »

Metro West runs along the M50.

Not quite, while generally parallel, they are never closed than touching, they never cross.

godtabh

Victor wrote: »

Not quite, while generally parallel, they are never closed than touching, they never cross.

Thats what I meant by along

BluntGuy

Hmmm... very interesting evidence.

Some nice 3D renders of the scheme:

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence/MN%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence%2001042009/MN%20Oral%20Hearing%20Presentation%20Overview%20of%20Scheme%20Rory%20O%27Connor%20Part%201%20010409.pdf

(Give this one a few minutes to load):

http://www.rpa.ie/PublishingImages/Metro%20North/MN%20RO%20OH%203D%20Flash%20Movies%20080409/Metro_North_Final_Animation.swf


If you have the time, I'd strongly recommend you read through all the evidence. That said, it'll take you hours to trawl through all the EIS designs, oral evidence etc.

Gruffalo

BluntGuy wrote: »

Hmmm... very interesting evidence.

Some nice 3D renders of the scheme:

http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence/MN%20RO%20Oral%20Hearing%20Evidence%2001042009/MN%20Oral%20Hearing%20Presentation%20Overview%20of%20Scheme%20Rory%20O%27Connor%20Part%201%20010409.pdf

(Give this one a few minutes to load):

http://www.rpa.ie/PublishingImages/Metro%20North/MN%20RO%20OH%203D%20Flash%20Movies%20080409/Metro_North_Final_Animation.swf


If you have the time, I'd strongly recommend you read through all the evidence. That said, it'll take you hours to trawl through all the EIS designs, oral evidence etc.

Thanks for these Blunt Guy. The second one looks really cool but they could have had someone proof read it first. I notice they have some of the Irish spelling wrong.

DWCommuter

The head of An Bord Snip Nua has made a negative submission in his professional guise, on behalf of a hotel group.

godtabh

DWCommuter wrote: »

The head of An Bord Snip Nua has made a negative submission in his professional guise, on behalf of a hotel group.

What do you mean by that?

godtabh

BluntGuy wrote: »

http://www.rpa.ie/PublishingImages/Metro%20North/MN%20RO%20OH%203D%20Flash%20Movies%20080409/Metro_North_Final_Animation.swf

There are lots of people hanging around talking and what not. Doesnt look like many are actually using MN. Is MN gona be the new cool place to hang out?

Some of the fly bys were fairly poor espically the intro. I've seen better VISSIM flybys that were done in now space of time.

L1011

kearnsr wrote: »

There are lots of people hanging around talking and what not. Doesnt look like many are actually using MN. Is MN gona be the new cool place to hang out?

Some of the fly bys were fairly poor espically the intro. I've seen better VISSIM flybys that were done in now space of time.

There was also a large number of people managing to use their phone at track level; does this mean they'll be following the example of the Tyne & Wear Metro and putting phone repeaters in the tunnels?

murphaph

MYOB wrote: »

There was also a large number of people managing to use their phone at track level; does this mean they'll be following the example of the Tyne & Wear Metro and putting phone repeaters in the tunnels?

To me that's nothing more than what should happen in this day and age. You can use your mobile in every underground tunnel in Berlin. Best reception is actually underground!

I think paying people to make animations like this is ridiculous. Who is it intended to impress? If local people/businesses are too stupid to realise that having a metro, even a crap one (which this isn't), would benefit them then a silly animation isn't going to either! Just a waste of resources.

DWCommuter

kearnsr wrote: »

What do you mean by that?

Before he was appointed to an bord snip nua, he made a submission on behalf of a hotel group (in his role as an economist) that was negative to the building of metro north. Since his appointment he has been continually negative towards major capital expenditure. Check press for details.:D

Im not trying to create a conspiracy theory or anything but would anyone be shocked to discover that he's a Government plant to kill off the project?

godtabh

DWCommuter wrote: »

Before he was appointed to an bord snip nua, he made a submission on behalf of a hotel group (in his role as an economist) that was negative to the building of metro north. Since his appointment he has been continually negative towards major capital expenditure. Check press for details.:D

Im not trying to create a conspiracy theory or anything but would anyone be shocked to discover that he's a Government plant to kill off the project?

I didn’t know the history.

Which hotel group is it?

I've seen some of the objects to MN that haven’t been submitted yet. Some of the reasoning is unbelievable

I was meant to be involved in some of these objects but thankfully conflict of interest wouldn’t allow me to do it

DWCommuter

kearnsr wrote: »

I didn’t know the history.

Which hotel group is it?

I've seen some of the objects to MN that haven’t been submitted yet. Some of the reasoning is unbelievable

I was meant to be involved in some of these objects but thankfully conflict of interest wouldn’t allow me to do it

If memory serves me correctly, its the carlton hotel group.

dowlingm

Hmmm... the scaling on that PDF slide (8) is interesting where it shows MN in relation to the rail network. We couldn't have people asking awkward questions like why MN can't be extended over a few fields to a Northern Line terminus to allow ease of commute from Drogheda/Dundalk/Balbriggan to Swords/DUB, could we now...

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

Hmmm... the scaling on that PDF slide (8) is interesting where it shows MN in relation to the rail network. We couldn't have people asking awkward questions like why MN can't be extended over a few fields to a Northern Line terminus to allow ease of commute from Drogheda/Dundalk/Balbriggan to Swords/DUB, could we now...

The 17A will be great for them

Bluetonic

markpb wrote: »

The 17A will be great for them

33B.

Anyhow there was talk that extending the line from Swords to Donabate would have a negative effect on the green belt between the two, in terms of encouraging development in a linear fashion.

Victor

I understand hearings resume tomorrow, Wednesday.

dowlingm

Bluetonic wrote: »

Anyhow there was talk that extending the line from Swords to Donabate would have a negative effect on the green belt between the two, in terms of encouraging development in a linear fashion.

I realise you're just bringing the message BTonic so no offence intended in the following.

The distance between Lissenhall and Donabate is only 2-3km so we're only talking about development east of Donabate. The green belt can only be impacted if the County Council allows it and/or fails to ensure they defend ABP appeals viciously. We can't have joined up public transport as it would endanger the environment - jesus mary and joseph...

it seems they would rather have people drive down the M1 to metro than use the DART/suburban from Balbriggan/Drogheda... but how would the toll companies and car park companies profit from the latter?

MICKEYG

dowlingm wrote: »

Hmmm... the scaling on that PDF slide (8) is interesting where it shows MN in relation to the rail network. We couldn't have people asking awkward questions like why MN can't be extended over a few fields to a Northern Line terminus to allow ease of commute from Drogheda/Dundalk/Balbriggan to Swords/DUB, could we now...

Seems that in Stephens Green you will need to go through barriers to connect from Metro North to the interconnector. Maybe I am mistaken but if not that is annoying.

markpb

MICKEYG wrote: »

Seems that in Stephens Green you will need to go through barriers to connect from Metro North to the interconnector. Maybe I am mistaken but if not that is annoying.

Hardly surprising though... IE (Dart) and RPA (Luas) already have different models, there's no reason to think they'd change that when the two new routes open. We'll be lucky if they speak to each other about operating hours, etc.

Metrobest

MICKEYG wrote: »

Seems that in Stephens Green you will need to go through barriers to connect from Metro North to the interconnector. Maybe I am mistaken but if not that is annoying.

It won't be a major issue thanks to smart card we'll all be using by then.

Metrobest

dowlingm wrote: »

it seems they would rather have people drive down the M1 to metro than use the DART/suburban from Balbriggan/Drogheda... but how would the toll companies and car park companies profit from the latter?

yes, it's all a big conspiracy, they're just building this metro to line the pockets of toll companies :rolleyes:

once the central spine of metro north is built, people will be clamouring for extensions left, right and centre. I'm sure the extension to Donabate will be a priority, as well as a southward extension.

murphaph

Exactly! We just need to get the core in place so people can see that mass rapid transit IS possible in Dublin!

Metrobest

markpb wrote: »

Hardly surprising though... IE (Dart) and RPA (Luas) already have different models, there's no reason to think they'd change that when the two new routes open. We'll be lucky if they speak to each other about operating hours, etc.

You'd have to hope by 2015 Irish Rail will be running the DARTs and CIE the buses until 00.30am, like luas, but who knows.....

Will Irish Rail and Dublin Bus still exist then in their current form? Let's hope not!

Metrobest

murphaph wrote: »

Exactly! We just need to get the core in place so people can see that mass rapid transit IS possible in Dublin!

...And is is possible. The success of Luas has shown that Dubliners don't want to use their cars, they will gladly switch modes as soon as they are given a halfway decent (ie. not bus-based) alternative.

Philip Treacy will have to make a special-edition "metro north" hat, to be eaten by Frank McDonald and his fellow critics sometime around 2015!

godtabh

Metrobest wrote: »

It won't be a major issue thanks to smart card we'll all be using by then.

the rate at which this is been integrated it should be ready for use in 20 years. Probably 10 years before MN is up and running

Victor

MICKEYG wrote: »

Seems that in Stephens Green you will need to go through barriers to connect from Metro North to the interconnector. Maybe I am mistaken but if not that is annoying.

There will be a platform to platform connection.

VanBosch

Does anyone know what the next step after these oral hearings is? How long is it likely before planning permission is granted/refused?

If it is approved is the next step the announcement of the winning tender?

If all goes to plan when is construction expected to start?

gjim

dowlingm wrote: »

The distance between Lissenhall and Donabate is only 2-3km so we're only talking about development east of Donabate. The green belt can only be impacted if the County Council allows it and/or fails to ensure they defend ABP appeals viciously. We can't have joined up public transport as it would endanger the environment - jesus mary and joseph...

I don't get this either. I realise that the RPA seemingly have to be beaten into providing connections to commuter rail lines - the Drumcondra stop wasn't on any of the originally proposed routes I seem to recall. However, the existing northern line is packed; allowing a switch to metro at Donabate surely would have increased projected metro passenger numbers. It's a badly missed opportunity to significantly increase the overall utility of the transport system and I'm surprised more fuss wasn't made of it.

ihatewallies

denizens living north of Malahide should not be allowed on MN until they adjust to modern civilisation

Victor

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_airport_swords/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRailwayOrderOralHearingEvidence.aspx

Metro North Railway Order Oral Hearing

On Wednesday 22nd April 2009, An Bord Pleanála's Inspector announced that he will temporarily adjourn the Metro North Oral Hearing after the completion of Module 1 (RPA’s evidence), to allow the Inspector and his technical advisors and other observers consider RPA's evidence and the supporting data provided by RPA in response to questions from the Inspector and his technical advisors. The adjournment is expected to be for a period of approximately 4 weeks.

Stupido

3D video flyby of the stations. Go to

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_airport_swords/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRailwayOrderOralHearingEvidence.aspx

then click on

Metro North Oral Hearing 3D Simulation Overview of Scheme Rory O'Connor 010409

It gives an impression of the stations.

whosedaddy?

Stupido wrote: »

3D video flyby of the stations. Go to

http://www.rpa.ie/en/projects/metro_airport_swords/build_and_operation_permission/Pages/MetroNorthRailwayOrderOralHearingEvidence.aspx

then click on

Metro North Oral Hearing 3D Simulation Overview of Scheme Rory O'Connor 010409

It gives an impression of the stations.

Nice.. i know its artist impression, but a lot of much glass that can be broken and spray-painted by vandals...

crocro

VanBosch wrote: »

Does anyone know what the next step after these oral hearings is? How long is it likely before planning permission is granted/refused?

If it is approved is the next step the announcement of the winning tender?

If all goes to plan when is construction expected to start?

In theory, the plan is this...

Railway order approval: 2009
Second stage of tendering, following railway order, starts in 2009.
Contract awarded: 2010
Construction starts 2010
Completion: 2013

Everyone would be surprised if the project completes by 2013.
Most people will be surprised if a contract is awarded in 2010.

If no contract is awarded, this will look bad for Ireland as the bidders will have spent millions for no reward. It will discourage serious players from competing for future projects in Ireland. There is a possibility of the state compensating bidders in this case.

If a contract is awarded then the project will likely complete unless the bidding consortium goes bust or the state defaults on its payments.

godtabh

crocro wrote: »

If no contract is awarded, this will look bad for Ireland as the bidders will have spent millions for no reward. It will discourage serious players from competing for future projects in Ireland. There is a possibility of the state compensating bidders in this case.

The last 4 bidders were paid to carry out their tenders I thought?

crocro

kearnsr wrote: »

The last 4 bidders were paid to carry out their tenders I thought?

Frank Allen said that the preferred bidders had spent €10m a piece on their proposals.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0302/1224242083966.html

ihatewallies

are 'people' always like this or is it just MN that seems to be plagued by myths and misinformation re just about everything?

the consortia had to pay for their own tenders. total cost for 4 tenders close to 50 million Euros.

Planning is expected to be through the system by around Nov which should also be the time the preferred bidder is selected.

construction could start in early 2010.

where did the 2013 completion date come from?

if it starts in early 2010 construction will be completed around the end of 2015.

crocro

ihatewallies wrote: »

where did the 2013 completion date come from?

The government:
http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Metro_North.html
The minister for transport http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=10717&lang=ENG&loc=2262
The RPA http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Railway%20Orders/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20EIS%20Vol%203%20Bk%202/EIS%20Metro%20North%20Volume%203%20Book%202%20of%202%20(Annex%20I%20Part1).pdf

ihatewallies

crocro wrote: »

The government:
http://www.transport21.ie/Projects/Metro_-_Luas/Metro_North.html
The minister for transport http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=10717&lang=ENG&loc=2262
The RPA http://www.rpa.ie/Documents/Railway%20Orders/Metro%20North/Metro%20North%20EIS%20Vol%203%20Bk%202/EIS%20Metro%20North%20Volume%203%20Book%202%20of%202%20(Annex%20I%20Part1).pdf

if you looked more closely at that stuff you'd see it's years old and was predicated on MN construction starting around 2008

crocro

ihatewallies wrote: »

if you looked more closely at that stuff you'd see it's years old and was predicated on MN construction starting around 2008

In fact all of these documents are less than a year old.

The transport 21 prediction of 2013 was last updated on 6/april/09 - 3 weeks ago.
The transport minister's prediction of 2013 is from a parliamentary question 10 months ago.
The RPA prediction of 2013 is from an EIS published 8 months ago.

Few expect to see metro north in 2013 but this is still the officially predicted date.

The original date given for completion of metro north in transport 21 was 2012 as seen in the november 2005 press release on transport 21:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-4.pdf

Carawaystick

Metrobest wrote: »

You'd have to hope by 2015 Irish Rail will be running the DARTs and CIE the buses until 00.30am, like luas, but who knows.....

Bus Éireann already run a 24 hour on the hour service to Belfast,
Last passenger train leaving Drogheda is at 18 mins past midnight.

ihatewallies

crocro wrote: »

In fact all of these documents are less than a year old.

The transport 21 prediction of 2013 was last updated on 6/april/09 - 3 weeks ago.
The transport minister's prediction of 2013 is from a parliamentary question 10 months ago.
The RPA prediction of 2013 is from an EIS published 8 months ago.

Few expect to see metro north in 2013 but this is still the officially predicted date.

The original date given for completion of metro north in transport 21 was 2012 as seen in the november 2005 press release on transport 21:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-4.pdf

wasn't fully updated. you're very trusting of gov documents.

VanBosch

It's now almost 2 months since the last day or the Oral Hearing.Does anyone have any idea on when a decision is likely to be reached? If a railway order is granted when should construction start?