Tonights Prime Time on Pensions: The Public Sector Pay Parity Gravy Train

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

Its not copied and pasted. How dare you. It was on national radio the other day. Which part of the post do you not agree with ( before you copy + paste something irrelevant ) ? :
"Public expenditure increased from 36 billion to 63 billion over the past 6 years. The govt wasted a great opportunity to slash it 4% in the budget ( at least ), because inflation is minus 4%. It means the public service + their pensioners got another 4% increase in real terms"

Expenditure certainly hasn't increased where I work.Expenditure has been cut. I'm not civil service but semi state. My take home pay is a lot less than it was last year. I don't get overtime or any other 'perks'.
I earn a lot more for my employers than they pay me and my pension (if I ever get one) is not funded by the taxpayer.
Even after the pension levies etc. meant a cut in pay for everyone in the public sector people are still having a go.:(
Most of the criticism I've seen on these boards isn't constructive or helpful in any way. It is just people spouting vitriole and spite at one section of society, the public sector.

stevoman

grahamo wrote: »

Most of the criticism I've seen on these boards isn't constructive or helpful in any way. It is just people spouting vitriole and spite at one section of society, the public sector.

very well said. its less about a reasonable debate these days and more like some people with chips on their shoulders turning in potatoes TBH.

jimmmy

grahamo wrote: »

Expenditure certainly hasn't increased where I work.

I did not ask you that. I asked which part of the post do you not agree with :
"Public expenditure increased from 36 billion to 63 billion over the past 6 years. The govt wasted a great opportunity to slash it 4% in the budget ( at least ), because inflation is minus 4%. It means the public service + their pensioners got another 4% increase in real terms"

If you are going to moan about your levy again, would you like not to have the public sector pension at all? It is still subsidised greatly. If you want to pay the full economic cost of it, that would be 25% of your salary.

grahamo

jimmmy wrote: »

I did not ask you that. I asked which part of the post do you not agree with :
"Public expenditure increased from 36 billion to 63 billion over the past 6 years. The govt wasted a great opportunity to slash it 4% in the budget ( at least ), because inflation is minus 4%. It means the public service + their pensioners got another 4% increase in real terms"

If you are going to moan about your levy again, would you like not to have the public sector pension at all? It is still subsidised greatly. If you want to pay the full economic cost of it, that would be 25% of your salary.

Do you actually know what you are talking about. I just said I work semi-state. i.e. nationalised industry. This means a commercial business which is beneficially owned, either completely or in the majority by the irish government. Have you read my post
My pension is not funded and will not be funded by the taxpayer in any way so I do pay the full economic cost of it!
As for the civil service etc. they are now paying 6.5% PRSI (add another couple of per cent to this from May 1st) and 6.5% pension contribution plus between 4 and 8% pension levy.
I think that should be enough to pay for a pension which will be mostly made up of the state pension

bobbbb

jimmmy wrote: »

I did not ask you that. I asked which part of the post do you not agree with :
"Public expenditure increased from 36 billion to 63 billion over the past 6 years. The govt wasted a great opportunity to slash it 4% in the budget ( at least ), because inflation is minus 4%. It means the public service + their pensioners got another 4% increase in real terms"

If you are going to moan about your levy again, would you like not to have the public sector pension at all? It is still subsidised greatly. If you want to pay the full economic cost of it, that would be 25% of your salary.

Jimmmy,
How much are you paying for your €200+ per week pension?

ixoy

Isn't the benefit of the public sector pension based on the fact that it's tied to the current wage of the position left? So if they're paying 6.5% of their pension and retire, then 10 years later the salary then would only be about 3.5% (or whatever) of what they were contributing when they left but they'd receive the same 50% lump sum (or less depending on number of years served)?

It's not so much about how good it is on retirement but more on how good it will be several years after retirement. Obviously the state pension would increase too but I thought it was the "tied to level" bit that made it beneficial. That and the initial pay out.

Rob67

Rob67 enters from stage left(wing):

…Rob67 walks in and finds that the discussion about who gets more (or less) than others in their respective sectors is still ongoing. Realising that the argument has devolved into something that that will eventually evolve into nothing he sticks his size 9’s in….

For crying out loud!! This thread is still running? I’m amazed that people could still be bothered to reply to some of the posts that are so intolerant of the Public sector that it is possibly bordering on the pathological. Ok, ok we get it! You (and you know who you are!) don’t ‘like’ the Public Sector and their vast reserves of personal wealth as they relax in luxuriant orthopaedic office chairs scoffing cream buns and dipping their mugs into the coffee rivers that run through the various health spas that double as offices if they actually decide to engage in (ugh) ‘work’. Most days are spent counting the hours to the time when they pick up their golden goose of a pension and float out the door into retirement.

I realise that it is impossible to change such an immovable or unflinching opinion through reasoned debate and so… I give up! I can’t take it anymore, I’m so sorry for having spent the last twenty one years in the vaunted Public Sector! There, I said it!! Happy?

I’m sorry for having a job that paid so little when I started that many of my married colleagues who had children (the fiends, how dare they procreate!) had to get Family Income Supplement to put food on the table. And what was the response of our particular Dept? Raise the wage just a smidgin above the qualifying rates to prevent applications being successful! I’m sorry for being in job that actually paid for itself in managing its properties by selling them off to developers. I’m sorry for working in a sector that actually hands back money at the end of the year because we enacted our own savings and economies so as to prevent overspending. I’m sorry for doing my duties and actually expecting to get paid. I’m sorry for being there for bin strikes, bus strikes, floods and of course, the foot and mouth scare, spending interminable hours on some back road watching out for marauding herds of possibly infected beasties that never arrived. Not to mention my early years of standing on similar back roads watching for marauding herds of Provos/ Loyalists, I’m sorry for that too.

Naturally, I’m also sorry for all the other things that the general public don’t usually get to see when we’re overseas representing our country in the various hotspots around the world. I’m sorry working those long hours without overtime payments or bonuses that a lot of people in the Private Sector got in the ‘good times’. I’m sorry for having the gall to look forward to receiving a small pension.

I’m really, really so very SORRRRREEEEEE!!!

I’m trying to be serious, but I just can’t because no matter what I say or do (except for maybe falling on a sword) I can’t take the anti- Public Sector vitriol seriously anymore. If you want to hate someone/something, hate the system not the people, it’s not funny anymore.

In truth, the majority of people who work in the Public Sector did not create this mess. The majority of people in the Private Sector did not create this mess (we all know who did). But to have each sector having a go at each other is not going to solve it either. I don’t have the answers either but I’m sure if someone is open to reasoned debate we may be able to come to some conclusions. After that, I really don’t know…

Apologies for the long-windedness!

gurramok

You're employer is going broke and your comrades resent taking paycuts.

You're employer pays an average wage in your company of about 49k.

You're employer gives you superior pensions.

You're employer grants you security of a job for life.

You're employer expects external employees to pay for your wage & pension while those external employees are taking pay cuts and job losses.

Now, you understand why there is resentment.

NewDubliner

gurramok wrote: »

You're employer expects external employees to pay for your wage & pension while those external employees are taking pay cuts and job losses.

Can you explain where the money comes from to fund pensions paid to private-sector employees?

gurramok

NewDubliner wrote: »

Can you explain where the money comes from to fund pensions paid to private-sector employees?

Me and my employer? My pension is worthless now, it ain't guaranteed like some.

Noticed you ignored the other points conveniently.

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

You're employer is going broke and your comrades resent taking paycuts.

You're employer pays an average wage in your company of about 49k.

You're employer gives you superior pensions.

You're employer grants you security of a job for life.

You're employer expects external employees to pay for your wage & pension while those external employees are taking pay cuts and job losses.

Now, you understand why there is resentment.

1.You do realise that if my employer went broke I won't get paid at all? no percentage cuts, just no pay! I can't answer for my colleagues but I agree that a measured approach to a pay cut would have been more acceptable instead of the current 'hack and slash' idea in use.
2. That may be the average, which I'm nowhere near.

3. Don't have a job for life, we have to meet certain criteria for extensions in our fixed term contracts from which we can be released if we don't play by the rules (and yes, people do get get released from their contracts on a regular basis, just in case you asked).

4.Do I have to apologise again?! What do you want us to do? somehow pay for ourselves? Oh, wait! We do!! We pay taxes as well!!! I know, I know, we don't really pay taxes because we're paid from the public purse where all your taxes go (and where mine went when I was in the private sector before my present job). Maybe you'd like us to work for free and just revel in the joy of public service? Might I remind you that we are the only Dept that comes in under budget?

5. I understand the resentment, I really do but it's being directed at the entire public service as a body and not at specific individuals. I work very hard, for long hours in a task which is a couple of ranks above mine but because of promotional shelving in my section for the last 10 yrs, I won't see anything extra for doing it. As a result I am now jobseeking outside this job as I'm tired of it. Yes, that was a whinge!:D

Look, we all have sad stories and could wail on about how really awful our lives are but just because I was one of the 'lucky ones' to get what we have. I took on my job even though the pay wasn't great but with the pension entitlements at the end of my service was going to give me a certain amount of financial security in my later years, something we ALL strive for. Sadly, Private sector workers weren't that lucky. In reality though, there is little I can do to salve the pain for the unfortunate ones, but people shouldn't be trying to make me feel guilty for ensuring my future. After all I didn't begrudge those who made good during the 'Tiger' years for being wealthier than I. I just looked forward to finishing in my current job and making proper money in the Private Sector.

Sorry, missed the point on pensions: Mine is not superior, in fact it is one of the lowest in the public sector, although it is guaranteed once service conditions are met.

dustbabe

Go rob for explaining a few things to the nutjobs.

I am glad to know the average pay rate is 49k for the public sector, damn it i will become a cleaner tomorrow for that average pay rate. You cannot earn that after 15 years on the top of scale staff nurse job!
anyway, stop whinin over our fab pensions, its gonna be so good i am going to live on a yacht in the caribbean!! only another 30 years of this crack to go, sure it will be grand.
Jimmy yes cost have gone up!! did you notice the housing bubble? Our government should hang their heads in shame, they let the bubble grow, the banks lent money they never had to people who had to get more and more pay raises just to cover the mortgage!
Bertie etc were happy to smile around europe with this wonderful celtic tiger they created, no bloody sign of him now!!
u will love this one jimmy!. imagine you need your hip replaced. public theatres have closed to save money, a 20% cut, sounds good, spend less. The patient would have cost about 10000 euro, but now it goes on to the National treatment purchase fund, at a cost of 30000 euro for the same case!! This has been going on for years, but now suddenly the irish public says hey this waste is terrrible. If you voted this governement back in, (and i still live here) u deserve all you get. We should have known that all the champagne lifestyles were going on our tick, fools that we were!
So jimmy, get off the soap box, get political and do something about it, because i already am

gurramok

Rob67 wrote: »

1.You do realise that if my employer went broke I won't get paid at all? no percentage cuts, just no pay! I can't answer for my colleagues but I agree that a measured approach to a pay cut would have been more acceptable instead of the current 'hack and slash' idea in use.

Same for everyone else. Benchmark backwards would be a fairer solution.

Rob67 wrote: »

2. That may be the average, which I'm nowhere near.

Alot are. There seems to be a poor definition of what low pay really is from the unions. They have this idea that anyone on 35k give or take is doing bad yet thats a very good wage to live on especially when 40% of the workforce earn minimum wage.

Rob67 wrote: »

3. Don't have a job for life, we have to meet certain criteria for extensions in our fixed term contracts from which we can be released if we don't play by the rules (and yes, people do get get released from their contracts on a regular basis, just in case you asked).

Again, alot are and some are unsackable on bad performance.

Rob67 wrote: »

4.Do I have to apologise again?! What do you want us to do? somehow pay for ourselves? Oh, wait! We do!! We pay taxes as well!!! I know, I know, we don't really pay taxes because we're paid from the public purse where all your taxes go (and where mine went when I was in the private sector before my present job). Maybe you'd like us to work for free and just revel in the joy of public service? Might I remind you that we are the only Dept that comes in under budget?

You're employer fecked up yes, that don't mean the rest us pay for those mistakes. You deserve pay, you don't deserve to be overpaid on which alot of your colleagues are.(colleagues as in whole public sector)

Rob67 wrote: »

5. I understand the resentment, I really do but it's being directed at the entire public service as a body and not at specific individuals. I work very hard, for long hours in a task which is a couple of ranks above mine but because of promotional shelving in my section for the last 10 yrs, I won't see anything extra for doing it. As a result I am now jobseeking outside this job as I'm tired of it. Yes, that was a whinge!:D

Maybe you are a good apple who knows whats it like in the real world. I'd wish those who striked at the dole offices recently would just cop on and those teachers as well.

Rob67 wrote: »

Look, we all have sad stories and could wail on about how really awful our lives are but just because I was one of the 'lucky ones' to get what we have. I took on my job even though the pay wasn't great but with the pension entitlements at the end of my service was going to give me a certain amount of financial security in my later years, something we ALL strive for. Sadly, Private sector workers weren't that lucky. In reality though, there is little I can do to salve the pain for the unfortunate ones, but people shouldn't be trying to make me feel guilty for ensuring my future. After all I didn't begrudge those who made good during the 'Tiger' years for being wealthier than I. I just looked forward to finishing in my current job and making proper money in the Private Sector.

Sorry, missed the point on pensions: Mine is not superior, in fact it is one of the lowest in the public sector, although it is guaranteed once service conditions are met.

Appreciate your input, at least you know what's it like out there.

NewDubliner

gurramok wrote: »

Me and my employer? My pension is worthless now, it ain't guaranteed like some.

Noticed you ignored the other points conveniently.

Your other points simply state how some people feel. It is a fact that there is resenentment, however misinformed.

You say your pension is 'worthless'. Are you forgetting the state pension based on PRSI contributions? It's state guaranteed & index-linked, just like a civil service pension.

I'm interested in exposing the myth that the funding of private-sector pensions is somehow morally superior to the funding of public-sector pensions.

The money that was invested in your pension plan, where did it come from?

Gumbo

gurramok wrote: »

Me and my employer? My pension is worthless now, it ain't guaranteed like some.

Noticed you ignored the other points conveniently.

you really dont know what your talking about do you?????

you still get the state guaranteed pension on top of what ever your personal pension is worth!

the public servants get the same pension and a top up which is more than paid for by the average worker, not the 49k workers that are in the low numbers.

gurramok

NewDubliner wrote: »

Your other points simply state how some people feel. It is a fact that there is resenentment, however misinformed.

You say your pension is 'worthless'. Are you forgetting the state pension based on PRSI contributions? It's state guaranteed & index-linked, just like a civil service pension.

I'm interested in exposing the myth that the funding of private-sector pensions is somehow morally superior to the funding of public-sector pensions.

The money that was invested in your pension plan, where did it come from?

Told you already, can you not read?

The other points are the reality and you want other taxpayers to fund the overpaid public sector
Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.

kceire wrote: »

you really dont know what your talking about do you?????

you still get the state guaranteed pension on top of what ever your personal pension is worth!

the public servants get the same pension and a top up which is more than paid for by the average worker, not the 49k workers that are in the low numbers.

Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.

Ye have bigger contributions to a pension fund as after all, ye can afford it as most of ye are overpaid.

To the both of ye, what would you define as low pay? Give us a ballpark figure.

grahamo

gurramok wrote: »

Told you already, can you not read?

The other points are the reality and you want other taxpayers to fund the overpaid public sector
Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.



Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.

Ye have bigger contributions to a pension fund as after all, ye can afford it as most of ye are overpaid.

To the both of ye, what would you define as low pay? Give us a ballpark figure.

GROAN! Here we go! :rolleyes: Yet another bitter Victor Meldrew type. Let me guess, an ex-student who expected to leave college and go straight into the workplace on top dollar and into a senior position from the very start. (after all, you were better qualified and deserved it more than the employees with years of experience)
In the real world you found that you didn't get everything on a plate like you did at home growing up so its 'Toys out of the pram' time and look for someone to blame for it all...........
....."I know, lets blame the public sector...All the other middle class studenty types are doing it"

I won't even bother posting an answer to your claims as the facts have been posted time and time again on these boards, it just seems some posters don't actually want to read the threads, they just want to post wind-up comments to stir s***e!

gurramok

So you cannot answer the question then?

Nice jumping the gun assuming i'm a 21yr old spotty student.

whiterob81

grahamo wrote: »

I won't even bother posting an answer to your claims as the facts have been posted time and time again on these boards, it just seems some posters don't actually want to read the threads, they just want to post wind-up comments to stir s***e!

Like you've just done. Why is it that whenever someone brings up an argument against civil servants and asks a simple question (ie what would you define as low paid?), civil servants have to resort to calling them middle class students and other such sweeping generalisations rather than actually answering them. Seriously, who's throwing their toys out of the pram now.

I think you'll find that most of the people that complain about civil servants are in fact people that have been working for the past number of years and are sick of the fact that a 2 tiered working system seems to have created by unions. the pay cut that civil servants have had to take is way less than any cut that friends of mine in the private sector have had to take

And no, I'm not a student. I'm a civil servant who's been working in social welfare for the past 6 years who's mortified by the complaining of fellow public servants over such a trivial pay cut. It's 7%, not yr friggin left arm. Just stop shoppin in tesco and start shoppin in Lidl ffs. that's what I did

Oh, and I'd define low paying as under 30,000

Gumbo

gurramok wrote: »

Told you already, can you not read?

The other points are the reality and you want other taxpayers to fund the overpaid public sector
Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.



Try living off 200 quid a week as a pensioner. You're pension is guaranteed by your employer, mine is not.

Ye have bigger contributions to a pension fund as after all, ye can afford it as most of ye are overpaid.

To the both of ye, what would you define as low pay? Give us a ballpark figure.

my PS pension is worth 8000e per year to me, assuming i retire on the top rate, this 8k is on top of the state guaranteed pension of 230e.

now, you tell us how much extra your pension is worth on top of the 230 state pension you will get?????

why cant you answer any questions that are put to you?

gurramok

kceire wrote: »

my PS pension is worth 8000e per year to me, assuming i retire on the top rate, this 8k is on top of the state guaranteed pension of 230e.

now, you tell us how much extra your pension is worth on top of the 230 state pension you will get?????

It was about 2900 when i checked a few months ago, its been decimated recently, must of been a 60% fall in the last couple of years.

You see, my pension ain't guaranteed.

kceire wrote: »

why cant you answer any questions that are put to you?

Now now, what questions?

I asked you a question about what you consider to be low pay and have had no answer from you yet.

Gumbo

gurramok wrote: »

It was about 2900 when i checked a few months ago, its been decimated recently, must of been a 60% fall in the last couple of years.

You see, my pension ain't guaranteed.



Now now, what questions?

I asked you a question about what you consider to be low pay and have had no answer from you yet.

the first 230e of your pension is guaranteed (state pension).

i cant answer the low salary question tbh, it depends on many factors such as family, mortgage etc etc

i have a private pension (PRSA) that i set up with AIB in 2002, and its now worth 6k from 7200 that i paid into so i guess your private pension has been unlucky or its only new, when did you start it?

anyway the point is that for the average PS worker, not the 966e per week workers, the addition ps pension is no gravy train imo.

gurramok

kceire wrote: »

the first 230e of your pension is guaranteed (state pension).

i cant answer the low salary question tbh, it depends on many factors such as family, mortgage etc etc

Why not? We have dual incomes so if you came around and said 30k each, its enough to live on assuming they didn't fork out for an overpriced house.

Both our state pensions are guaranteed. You're public sector one is guaranteed too but my private one ain't. Get it?

kceire wrote: »

i have a private pension (PRSA) that i set up with AIB in 2002, and its now worth 6k from 7200 that i paid into so i guess your private pension has been unlucky or its only new, when did you start it?

anyway the point is that for the average PS worker, not the 966e per week workers, the addition ps pension is no gravy train imo.

I took it out in 2001, it ain't guaranteed so please stop whinging about a pension levy.

Gumbo

gurramok wrote: »

Why not? We have dual incomes so uf you cam around said said 30k each, its enough to live on assuming they didn't fork out for an overpriced house.



I took it out in 2001, it ain't guaranteed so please stop whinging about a pension levy.

what are you on about???? who said anything about a pension levy???
are you even reading other peoples posts but your own?

jimmmy

kceire wrote: »

anyway the point is that for the average PS worker, not the 966e per week workers, the addition ps pension is no gravy train imo.

The average PS worker does get 966 per week ( plus perks ), according to statistics, so you cannot say "the point is that for the average PS worker, not the 966e per week workers.."

Gumbo

jimmmy wrote: »

The average PS worker does get 966 per week ( plus perks ), according to statistics, so you cannot say "the point is that for the average PS worker, not the 966e per week workers.."

well i can if i can honestly say nobody in my depatment at the moment earns 966e per week, and what perks are you on about? well maybe the chiefs would be on 50k but not the normal/average workers.

my mate works in the private sector and hasnt taken a pay cut yet, my brother works in the private sector and hasnt taken a pay cut either so its about the average worker, not what RTE claim to be the average worker.

gurramok

kceire wrote: »

what are you on about???? who said anything about a pension levy???
are you even reading other peoples posts but your own?

This is what you wrote earlier in response to my valid points and the only intelligent response was from Rob67.

you really dont know what your talking about do you?????

Thats a direct challenge to all the pay issues ongoing.

the public servants get the same pension and a top up which is more than paid for by the average worker, not the 49k workers that are in the low numbers.

Source about these low numbers?

jimmmy

kceire wrote: »

well i can if i can honestly say nobody in my depatment at the moment earns 966e per week, and what perks are you on about?

So do you think George Lee, RTE, the papers, the Central statistics office and everyone else is just making up the figure of 966 average public sector wage ?

kceire wrote: »

well maybe the chiefs would be on 50k but not the normal/average workers..

No, the chiefs in the public service are on a lot more than that....I even know normal / average workers in the public service on more than that.

kceire wrote: »

my mate works in the private sector and hasnt taken a pay cut yet, my brother works in the private sector and hasnt taken a pay cut either so its about the average worker, not what RTE claim to be the average worker.

Maybe your mate and brother are on 400 or 500 a week which many in the private sector are ? I know people in the private sector working and not making any money, and are living currently off SSIA's and savings and loans. That proves nothing though. Be thankful you have a secure wage, with a pension. That counts for a lot now.

Gumbo

gurramok wrote: »

This is what you wrote earlier in response to my valid points and the only intelligent response was from Rob67.



Thats a direct challenge to all the pay issues ongoing.



Source about these low numbers?

please show me where i moaned about the pension levy in response to your post.

you want a source.....maybe read the whole thread pleae : taken from post#50

Take a HEO on 57,000. This is as high as most people can hope to reach and higher than a lot will go.

After 40 years of contributions, taxes, levies and whatnot the pension will work out at 28,000 per annum. Contrary to what Jimmmy says most people would have absolutely no problem spending that in a year.

Wow, 28,000 you might say, that's a lot. But hang on, what about the State Pension that comes out of that. (Contrary to what you might hear Civil Servants don't get both, whoever told you they do is a liar)

State Contributory Pension

Personal Rate 230.3 by 52 = 11,975.60
Adult Dependant Rate 206.3 by 52 = 10,276.60

Total State Pension 22,252.20

So out of 28,000 A HEO would get 22,252 from the State Pension and their "Gilt edged" Gold plated public sector pension would give around 6,000 a year.

Obviously for an EO on a max of 48,000 the state pension is nearly all their pension.

I don't know the max for an SO but a CO will only end up with the State Pension and maybe something small above that, or not.

For that six grand a year they're paying

Pension Levy 158 by 26 (fortnightly) = 4,108
Superannuation 32 by 26 = 832
PRSI 56 by 26 = 1,456

Total 6,396

gurramok

A rant on figures by a poster without offical links is not valid. He could of made them up on the spot. Show us offical figures from a reputable website.

Here, you said "you really dont know what your talking about do you?????" in response to the below on pay so its 100% relevant.

You're employer is going broke and your comrades resent taking paycuts.

You're employer pays an average wage in your company of about 49k.

You're employer gives you superior pensions.

You're employer grants you security of a job for life.

You're employer expects external employees to pay for your wage & pension while those external employees are taking pay cuts and job losses.

Now, you understand why there is resentment.