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Tonights Prime Time on Pensions: The Public Sector Pay Parity Gravy Train

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    #332
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    grahamo wrote: »
    Oh Please!:rolleyes: Are you trying to say flexi-time doesn't exist in the private sector? gimme a break!
    It does, but not to the same degree or even the same flexibility. But it is indeed wrong to say it's nowhere.
    Also, How can it be seen as a 'perk'? People are still working the same hours. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with people working flexi-time, if it suits them and their family life, it seems to me workers will be happier, therefore more productive. Everyone's a winner!
    Well CS actually work less hours than many other industries at just under 35. Thus it's a perk if you can work 7.5 hours a day and then get a day off in lieu after 3 weeks. Yes, you're still spending the same amount of time at work but you get to use it far more effectively than others can so it's a good thing. I do agree it should be more wide-spread but, as it's not everywhere but only in specific places then yes - a perk.


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    #333
    whiterob81
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭whiterob81


    grahamo wrote: »
    Oh Please!:rolleyes: Are you trying to say flexi-time doesn't exist in the private sector? gimme a break!
    Flexi-time exists throughout the workforce although in some jobs it wouldn't be viable and this goes for the whole workforce. Not all public servants can avail of flexi-time in the same way as not all private sector workers can avail of it. It mainly only suits office jobs.
    Also, How can it be seen as a 'perk'? People are still working the same hours. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with people working flexi-time, if it suits them and their family life, it seems to me workers will be happier, therefore more productive. Everyone's a winner!

    Ok, I'll admit it was amiss of me to say that no one outside the civil service gets flexi time. There is probably a handful of people that do. I knew one guy working for a medical device company who could decide what time he could come in at between 8 and 10 am. But that's pretty much the closest I've heard. I'm sure there's probably others. I don't of anyone who has it written in to their contract that they can work up an extra 19 and 1/2 days extra holidays a year.

    Most people I know working in Private Sector jobs over the years have had to work extra hours outside of core hours for no over time pay or extra holidays. So that's why flexi time is generally perceived as a perk.

    most people I know in the Civil Service, myself included work less hours than people in private sector jobs. So the perception is that we're working less hours and getting 19 and a 1/2 extra days off a year and it's a perception that's not a million miles away from the truth. You can see where the resentment comes from.

    Also, people have tried arguing here that public sector jobs are only as secure as the next budget but i think we all know that unless the IMF is actually called in, there is a very slim chance of anyone in the CS being fired.

    Also, I think a point has to be made that people don't resent anyone for having a public sector job in the first place. The resentment stems from people with the most secure job in the country at present protesting outside dole offices, while unemployed people queue up to sign on, over a 6% pay cut. They also resent the why-me, persecution complex wailings of a sector that's probably getting off lightest in this whole sorry mess


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    #334
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    my friend works for Hibernian Insurance and she avails of flexi time, has flexi days off etc

    i was talking to her the other day and it seems to be a carbon copy of the PS flexi system.

    it does exist in the private sector, my old job (consulting engineers) also had flexi time as in i could come in an hour earlier and go home an hour earlier etc


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    #335
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    kceire wrote: »
    i was talking to her the other day and it seems to be a carbon copy of the PS flexi system.
    Flexi-Time was invented by a German entrepreneur, according to WiKi:
    A flextime policy allows staff to determine when they will work, while a flexplace policy allows staff to determine where they will work. Its practical realization can mainly be attributed to the entrepreneur Wilhelm Haller


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    #336
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Ah jimmmy, you've got to stop agreeing with stuff without checking the facts.
    flexi -time - not a luxury and widely used outside of the civil service.
    job security & state guaranteed pension - also available in the private sector, but in both cases, only as good as the next emergency budget.
    Hillel wrote: »
    You said that "flexi -time - not a luxury and widely used outside of the civil service." What exactly did I add?
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    You added the word 'widespread'.

    OK, I get the drift.....


    Could you give us some references for the following in the private sector:
    • widely used flexi -time.
    • jobs where there is almost zero chance of being fired or being made redundant.
    • state guaranteed pension (linked to final salary and salary of current workers of same grade)
      (and please, no more nonsense about the contributary old age pension being equivalent).


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    #337
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Hillel wrote: »
    OK, I get the drift.....


    Could you give us some references for the following in the private sector:
    • widely used flexi -time.
    • jobs where there is almost zero chance of being fired or being made redundant.
    • state guaranteed pension (linked to final salary and salary of current workers of same grade)
      (and please, no more nonsense about the contributary old age pension being equivalent).

    Hibernian Insurance
    ESBi (my GF works there)
    My old company in Harolds Cross (consulting engineers practice)
    to name 3 that i know of, and im sure theres more.

    but just as theres loads of people that cant avail of flexi time in the private sector, theres also loads of people that cant avail of it in the public service too.


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    #338
    termcg
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭termcg


    I have worked in ESBi for almost 8 years and worked in a number of the different Business Units within the company. I can assure you that ESBi does not offer any staff flexitime.


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    #339
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Hillel wrote: »
    (and please, no more nonsense about the contributary old age pension being equivalent).

    You're right it's not equivalent. It's deducted from public servants pensions whereas private sector can keep the state pension and their private pension.

    No equivalence there at all.


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    #340
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    termcg wrote: »
    I have worked in ESBi for almost 8 years and worked in a number of the different Business Units within the company. I can assure you that ESBi does not offer any staff flexitime.

    just proves my point that within the same company, not all employees can avail of flexi time, just like the Public Sector. and i can assure you that my GF has flexi time (ESBi equilivent (sp))


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    #341
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    kceire wrote: »
    Hibernian Insurance
    ESBi (my GF works there)
    My old company in Harolds Cross (consulting engineers practice)
    to name 3 that i know of, and im sure theres more.

    but just as theres loads of people that cant avail of flexi time in the private sector, theres also loads of people that cant avail of it in the public service too.

    I asked for flexi-time in the private sector. ESBi is owned by the state.


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    #342
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    Hillel wrote: »
    I asked for flexi-time in the private sector. ESBi is owned by the state.
    Couple of IT companies have flexible core hours I believe - DemonWare and Microsoft have it (or at least in certain areas). Of course the hours-per-week are longer and you can't build up time-in-lieu to anything like 18 days extra holidays (in fact I don't think you can build it up at all). So it's only flexible in the core hours, which still have to be made up over the week and can't really be carried over.


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    #343
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Hillel wrote: »
    I asked for flexi-time in the private sector. ESBi is owned by the state.
    What's your problem with flexi time?

    As the name indicates, it provides both the employee and employer with flexibility in the management of working hours. It permits both employee and employer to operate within agreed framework of working hours and these are usually recorded electronically. It also helps to avoid breaches of the working hours regulations.

    It's not a perk, and senior managers in the PS don't have it. It's used to manage the attendance of junior staff.


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    #344
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    What's your problem with flexi time?

    As the name indicates, it provides both the employee and employer with flexibility in the management of working hours. It permits both employee and employer to operate within agreed framework of working hours and these are usually recorded electronically. It also helps to avoid breaches of the working hours regulations.

    It's not a perk, and senior managers in the PS don't have it. It's used to manage the attendance of junior staff.
    I have no problem whatsoever with Flexi-Time. It is not suitable in all situations. However, when it is, it can reduce absenteeism and improve productivity. I would agree with ixoy that flexi-time operates in different fashions in the public and private sectors. Therefore, to the extent that it is more advantageous for staff in the public sector, it is a perk.


    I was responding to your post:
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Ah jimmmy, you've got to stop agreeing with stuff without checking the facts.
    flexi -time - not a luxury and widely used outside of the civil service.


    I asked for evidence that flexi-time was widely used outside of the civil service. In response you posted:
    kceire wrote: »
    Hibernian Insurance
    ESBi (my GF works there)
    My old company in Harolds Cross (consulting engineers practice)
    to name 3 that i know of, and im sure theres more.
    Of those three, one (ESBi) is in the public sector, leaving two in the private sector.
    Hardly evidence of widespread use!


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    #345
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Hillel wrote: »
    I have no problem whatsoever with Flexi-Time. It is not suitable in all situations. However, when it is, it can reduce absenteeism and improve productivity. I would agree with ixoy that flexi-time operates in different fashions in the public and private sectors. Therefore, to the extent that it is more advantageous for staff in the public sector, it is a perk...

    And to what extent is it more advantageous for staff in the public sector?

    There is an overlooked benefit to the public in flexi-time: if it is an option for a high percentage of people in a traffic-congested area (Dublin springs to mind) then the commuter burden on the system can be spread, and thus eased.


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    #346
    Firetrap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭Firetrap


    I don't see what the problem is with Flexi-time either. Does it matter if someone works from 8-4 rather than from 9 to 5? I'm sure there are staff in the private sector, especially ones who have kids, who would dearly love to have flexi-time. Obviously it's not practical in every job but still, it's a useful thing. I wish I had it in my job


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    #347
    Ada Wonderful Speculator
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ada Wonderful Speculator


    I'm on flexitime in private, and I know of a fair number of companies who have it also (from various chats with people). Plus you can work up to 12 extra days off a year. I'm surprised to hear how rare it is in here. Personally I don't think I could cope without it :D


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    #348
    dresden8
    Registered Users Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'm surprised to hear how rare it is in here.

    I don't think it's that rare at all. Some people here obviously can't avail of it and would like to use it as a stick to beat the public service with.

    There's no outrage like pretendy outrage.


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    #349
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,993 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    dresden8 wrote: »
    I don't think it's that rare at all. Some people here obviously can't avail of it and would like to use it as a stick to beat the public service with.
    I think it's a particularly generous use of flexi-time but I actually think such methods are something more companies should have rather than reducing it for the PS/CS. It's a good idea for beating traffic or if someone is tired some morning, etc.

    FWIW, my core hours are 9-5:30 (with only a mild degree of flexibility) but I can build up time-in-lieu. I'd love to have the flexibility on core hours but don't think that just because I don't have it, that others shouldn't either.


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    #350
    NewDubliner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭NewDubliner


    Hillel wrote: »
    Therefore, to the extent that it is more advantageous for staff in the public sector, it is a perk.
    Ah, anything that is humane or worker-friendly is bad. I get it.
    Hillel wrote: »
    I asked for evidence that flexi-time was widely used outside of the civil service.
    ESBi is not in the civil service, you asseretd this yourself. Flexi is available in about 20% of the private sector here, including banks and insurance. Flexi-time was devised in Germany's private sector and is also in use in countries such as the UK, USA & Sweden (50% in the private sector). I think this satisfies a definition of 'wide', which is itself a matter of opinion.

    I'm afraid that only Dickensian working conditions would meet your high standards.


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    #351
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Ah, anything that is humane or worker-friendly is bad. I get it.

    ........

    I'm afraid that only Dickensian working conditions would meet your high standards.

    Rubbish! I think flexi-time is a great idea, from both an employee and worker perspective. What I said previously was:
    Hillel wrote: »
    I have no problem whatsoever with Flexi-Time. It is not suitable in all situations. However, when it is, it can reduce absenteeism and improve productivity.
    NewDubliner wrote: »
    ESBi is not in the civil service, you asseretd this yourself.

    Agreed, I missed that one.:D

    NewDubliner wrote: »
    Flexi is available in about 20% of the private sector here, including banks and insurance.
    Evidence?


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    #352
    Hillel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 376 ✭✭Hillel


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    And to what extent is it more advantageous for staff in the public sector?
    I have limited experience, or visibility of flexi-time, in the private sector.
    What I have seen is a concept of "Core Hours", typically 10am-4pm. Staff must attend between these hours, but, within reason, can agree their own start and finish times. In the situations that I am familiar with, the most that staff can work up is 1/2 day, month. That is much less generous than the public sector.
    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    There is an overlooked benefit to the public in flexi-time: if it is an option for a high percentage of people in a traffic-congested area (Dublin springs to mind) then the commuter burden on the system can be spread, and thus eased.
    I agree with you, there are many advantages of flexi-time, not all of which are immediately obvious.


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