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Tonights Prime Time on Pensions: The Public Sector Pay Parity Gravy Train
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don't private sector's pay for all 3
they pay into their own pension.
they pay for the public sector's pension
and they pay into what will be their state pension?
Public sector pay taxes and pension contributions just like everybody else. A lot of private sector in Ireland suck on the public teat, just like the public sector. I, as a public servant, even purchase goods and services in the private sector, money which under your own terms of reference comes from the private sector. It's an economy, money circulates and multiplies in return for services provided and goods purchased. That's how capitalism works.
In a politics forum do I really have to explain this?0 -
A lot of private sector in Ireland suck on the public teat, just like the public sector.
Just ask Tom Parlon, the CIF can't wait to get it's hands on several hundren million come Tuesday next, all of it public money to prop up the private sector.
Risk takers and wealth makers me arse!0 -
Public sector pay taxes and pension contributions just like everybody else. A lot of private sector in Ireland suck on the public teat, just like the public sector. I, as a public servant, even purchase goods and services in the private sector, money which under your own terms of reference comes from the private sector. It's an economy, money circulates and multiplies in return for services provided and goods purchased. That's how capitalism works.
In a politics forum do I really have to explain this?
You will have to explain it for me, because I'm a bit slow.
I was under the impression that public sector workers don't pay PRSI.
I was also under the impression that PRSI contributions go towards paying for state pensions.
A private pension gives you back what you put in.
am i right in stating that's not the case with a public one? and it's also followed by bench marking so it increases with the annual wage of the grade you were previously on?
which the private sector continues to pay for?
I apologise for my complete ignorance and thanks in advance for dumbing it down for me.0 -
OK, with a 20k DSW pension (for self and wife). That would make his half pay equal to 50k? So, he's making 100k at present? I'd doubt he's in the CPSU or PSEU.Rojomcdojo wrote: »My dad (My only real source for this PS information) is on half his salary when he's leaving and the state pension too.
Where does he work? Not the Civil Service, maybe one of the quangos or semi-states?0 -
They do pay PRSI, same as everyone else, but some, hired before 1995 pay less but are entitled to less benefits too.I was under the impression that public sector workers don't pay PRSI.
That used to be the case, but now the money is used to bail out banks.I was also under the impression that PRSI contributions go towards paying for state pensions.
Not true, the fund managers take a big cut on your money even if they lose most of it.A private pension gives you back what you put in.
Not exactly, It depends on what part of the public sector and also what grade. Some only get the state pension. Some get a lot more.am i right in stating that's not the case with a public one?
Only on the non state-pension part.and it's also followed by bench marking so it increases with the annual wage of the grade you were previously on?
Both the public and private sectors pay for this.which the private sector continues to pay for?
Everyone pays the cost of private sector pensions as the cost of providing these pensions is added to the prices they charge us for their goods and services.0 -
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You will have to explain it for me, because I'm a bit slow.
I was under the impression that public sector workers don't pay PRSI.
Post 95's pay full PRSI. Pre's pay less but get less out.I was also under the impression that PRSI contributions go towards paying for state pensions.
Only recently. The Social Insurance Fund has only been in surplus for 10 years or so. Previously it was in deficit. All shortfalls were previously made up from taxes. This situation will become normal again from next year. i.e. thanks to FF 10 years surplus will be wiped out in 1 year, along with the National Pensions Reserve Fund which is going to prop up the banksA private pension gives you back what you put in.
You are joking aren't you? It's a capitalist con.
Once the Pensions Reserve Fund is given away to the banks there is nothing left for anybody. Beyond that there is no "Pension Fund". Which beggars the lie of the "Pension Levy" going to pay for public sector pensions. That money is gone, it doesnt exist any more. It's another FF con. It's gone to the banks. The Pensions crisis just got crisier, to misquote Bertie. Check out Bord na Monaam i right in stating that's not the case with a public one? and it's also followed by bench marking so it increases with the annual wage of the grade you were previously on?which the private sector continues to pay for?
Yes, and the public sector, i.e. the economy.I apologise for my complete ignorance and thanks in advance for dumbing it down for me.
No probs.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »OK, with a 20k DSW pension (for self and wife). That would make his half pay equal to 50k? So, he's making 100k at present? I'd doubt he's in the CPSU or PSEU.
Where does he work? Not the Civil Service, maybe one of the quangos or semi-states?
Oh it's semi state. I probably should have stated that.
I've worked in the PS myself on a contract and tbh I hate this whole "everyone against the PS" buzz at the mo. For every fool on a permanent job there's a person working their arse off to keep things running.0 -
Rojomcdojo wrote: »Oh it's semi state. I probably should have stated that.
I've worked in the PS myself on a contract and tbh I hate this whole "everyone against the PS" buzz at the mo. For every fool on a permanent job there's a person working their arse off to keep things running.
Now there's one truth.
But then again, I've been in Harvey Norman being professionally ignored by one of their "salesmen". Tossers exist in all organisations.0 -
Now there's one truth.
But then again, I've been in Harvey Norman being professionally ignored by one of their "salesmen". Tossers exist in all organisations.
Yeah I've worked everywhere from a toyshop to mcdonalds.
The ratio of lazy people is exactly the same everywhere.
FF have pulled a nice trick though in making everyone turn on the PS. I mean, who hired and paid this PS we have? People are so ****. Really are..0 -
Jimmmy?
Jimmmy?
The adults are talking realities.
If ever we needed your generalities and prejudices, it's now.
I'm worried for Jimmmy!0 -
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Just ask Tom Parlon, the CIF can't wait to get it's hands on several hundren million come Tuesday next, all of it public money to prop up the private sector.
Risk takers and wealth makers me arse!
The same guy who lined up his job while still in office now comes looking for aid for the CIF. What to add to the glut of estates and houses around the country. On yer bike Parlon.
More like wealth stealers. Its the country which was put at risk by the scamsters and the cowboy developers who have not paid a penny back to the banks.0 -
The same guy who lined up his job while still in office now comes looking for aid for the CIF. What to add to the glut of estates and houses around the country. On yer bike Parlon.
More like wealth stealers. Its the country which was put at risk by the scamsters and the cowboy developers who have not paid a penny back to the banks.
Indeed. Where them FF boys gone?
If they disappear at the first sign of opposition on anonymous internet boards, will they get the activists out?
The only thing I know for certain is never write off FF. Scum.0 -
Hello all!
I don’t really place posts on any kind of forum, largely due to not having time, but I felt it was high time I did so in this regard. This may be a bit semantic and possibly pyrrhic as far as arguments go, but here goes…
I am employed in what is considered the ‘public service’ I am a class ‘H’ employee (go figure it out!). I earn a small bit above the ‘average’ industrial wage but the specific tasks I am engaged in would, if I were in the private sector, earn me a further 5k above my current earnings. I find myself at a point in my life where I may have to leave my job as any further potential cuts will mean that I may not be able to pay my way. Even though my wife works part time we have three teens at Leaving and Junior cert age and the resultant bills they incur, is causing a fiscal shortfall in our house. I know for a fact that I am not the only one in my job sector in such a position.
My grade/rank has only 4 increments attached to it; I reached the top level approx 15 yrs ago. I am employed in an where promotion is next to impossible and now with the new embargo will probably never see. I don’t receive overtime and never will. Neither will I receive a performance bonus nor a Christmas bonus, as no-one in my sector is entitled to them. I work an average of 43 hours a week including mandatory duties (for which I do receive a payment, less tax, PRSI, income levy and pension levy). I largely enjoy my work, even when it is at its most pressured points. I happen to work in a very unique and varied environment which is challenging at its best and frustrating at its worst. I also work very hard to maintain the standards expected of my workplaces requirements. It is with no small sense of pride that I can say that we do our job very well.
I have been privileged to have served with some of the best and brightest that this country had to offer. We have served without bother or fuss and, to a large extent, outside the deep scrutiny ascribed to Nurses, Gardai and Prison Officers, with the exclusion of the deafness claims (which, I may add, I did not claim for!) I don’t have the same rights as the rest of the citizenry of this country; I am not permitted to strike, I cannot join trade unions, I am not permitted to opine politically. I accept these restrictions and others because that’s what I signed up to, part of being a ‘public servant’.
Some people will read this and say: ‘that was your choice, live with it.’ I have, and, for the time being will continue to do so. I accept this because that is what I am required to do. I am not being glib or dismissive when I say that I fully understand the meaning of being unemployed, as I was in such a position for 6 months during the eighties prior to getting my present job.
I will not accept, though, to being vilified for being a ‘public servant’, through generalised, and often, ill-informed attacks. I work in a job sector that, during the boom, actually took a cut in numbers and was still expected to carry out the same tasks with fewer personnel. We did this reasonably successfully because we had to, we had no choice. We accepted the lack of equipment to do our job properly, often paying for necessary equipment from our own pockets. Since then, we have gotten the equipment through the savings made in sell off of lands, which is just as well, seeing as a lot of our people are representing this country in some of the most hazardous areas in the world including providing protection to vulnerable refugees in Africa. We have always done what has been expected of us, more than likely we will be asked to do more.
I am of pensionable service, which I am thankful for. However, it is nowhere the levels that have been bandied about on this, and other threads. I will be in receipt of a pension that will be less the half of my weekly wage and I will receive a gratuity which is approx 38% of my final year’s salary.
I will not receive a massive pension, I will not receive a gratuity that equals one and a half times my final year’s salary contrary to some of the assertions on certain threads (including this one) in regards to public service pensions and gratuities.
Of course, some people will not be happy until they get their pound of flesh from what is perceived to be a generally inefficient public service (largely due to media hype). I can accept the concept that there are public servants who are lucky to be in their position and that certain areas are overly-administered but to get that that done involves root and branch review of the public service, something I went through in the late 90’s. I cannot say, for definite, as to whether that is the way to go as I am not permitted to do so and I would never presume to engage in such a critique of higher authority.
I took an oath to serve the democratically elected government of the day. I have served my country and its citizens faithfully and with pride regardless of the circumstances.
What will/would you do?0 -
I was under the impression that public sector workers don't pay PRSI.
They do, with caveats, as I'll set out below.ntlbell wrote:I was also under the impression that PRSI contributions go towards paying for state pensions.
Yep, pensions and there is also a health and employment levy in there, towards the HSE and FAS which everybody in the private sector above €500 a week pays. Only post 95 PS'ers pay this.
Everybody, barring pre 95 PS'ers pay 4% from €356 to €500 a week. It's still a higher rate than pre 95 PS'ers and the interesting reason why follows.ntlbell wrote:A private pension gives you back what you put in.
Nope, ask Waterford Crystal workers etc. etc. That is what makes Public Swctor pensions so valuable, you get back what you put in, you don't necessarily with private pensions.NewDubliner wrote: »They do pay PRSI, same as everyone else, but some, hired before 1995 pay less but are entitled to less benefits too.
Interestingly and amazingly, the PS'ers who pay higher PRSI rates after 95, get paid more to compensate. I was hoping a PS'er would highlight that Yes post 95 staff pay higher PRSI and I was glad to see that.
I was dissapointed to see none highlighted post 95'ers get paid more to compensate. Suppose it isn't in their interest, or the Unions don't point out the advantageous deal they worked out. Strange!Dresden8 wrote:Once the Pensions Reserve Fund is given away to the banks there is nothing left for anybody. Beyond that there is no "Pension Fund". Which beggars the lie of the "Pension Levy" going to pay for public sector pensions. That money is gone, it doesnt exist any more. It's another FF con. It's gone to the banks. The Pensions crisis just got crisier, to misquote Bertie. Check out Bord na Mona
Any links to show that Dresden? Can you clear up if the pension fund still exists or not?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Hello all!
I don’t really place posts on any kind of forum, largely due to not having time, but I felt it was high time I did so in this regard. This may be a bit semantic and possibly pyrrhic as far as arguments go, but here goes…
I am employed in what is considered the ‘public service’ I am a class ‘H’ employee (go figure it out!). I earn a small bit above the ‘average’ industrial wage but the specific tasks I am engaged in would, if I were in the private sector, earn me a further 5k above my current earnings.
...
What will/would you do?
If you're in the pdf either leave and earn your EUR5k per annum more if you can leave or if you aren't in the pdf, leave and earn your 5k more in the private sector.
Do you not pay the health levy as you are including all the payroll taxes???
Would your net pension be less than half your net wage?
What percentage of your gross wage would your gross pension be? no pension levy to be deducted from this.....0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »If you're in the pdf either leave and earn your EUR5k per annum more if you can leave or if you aren't in the pdf, leave and earn your 5k more in the private sector.
Do you not pay the health levy as you are including all the payroll taxes???
Would your net pension be less than half your net wage?
What percentage of your gross wage would your gross pension be? no pension levy to be deducted from this.....
It is my intention to leave however I'm not going to go until I find a job and I've only just started looking. Still, some interesting prospects out there...
1.I don't pay the health levy, but I don't have the full access to the public health system either (requires prior sanction).
2. Approx half net pay, still not a fortune and I am not entitled to claim contributory pension.
3. Approx 38 - 40%, I take it you mean deduction of pension levy from the pension? Why would I continue to pay into a pension whilst on pension? Or do you mean on gross pay? then the levy is applied on ALL gross pay and yes tax relief is granted at 20%.
I take you're not a fan of the public service either?0 -
Rojomcdojo wrote: »I'm not just pulling this out of my arse. My dad (My only real source for this PS information) is on half his salary when he's leaving and the state pension too.
Works out at about 70k a year or something ridiculous like that.
With all due respect to your dad, there are lots of people around the country like that. The CSO will not release figures on how many or how much this is costing the country.....maybe its not in their own personal interests to do so ?
As a German said to me recently, he is not hopeful of the politicians tackling this crises, as they and their buddies in government jobs are the ones who will lose out if the pensions gravy train is tackled. Public servants and politicians in Germany or anywhere else simply do not get the huge pensions people get here. I know some public servants retiring on huge pensions who also have other sources of income built up over the years delivery their private pension eg a Guard having an investment house let out etc. A guard retiring at age 55 has a public sector pension pot worth 1 million if he was to have funded it himself.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »Everyone pays the cost of private sector pensions as the cost of providing these pensions is added to the prices they charge us for their goods and services.
Over 50% of the people in the private sector do not have a pension. Those in the private sector who do have a pension , have paid in to the pension fund themselves, and in the vast majority of these cases the pension they will get is , relatively speaking, very poor.....some will even get less than they paid in.
Given the fact the average industrial wage is much less than the average public sector wage ( quoted as 966 euro per week on the RTE news by George Lee yesterday ) , its no suprise that the average public sector worker is much better off than the average private sector worker. ...including in retirement.
Perish the thought that the risk takers should be paid more.0 -
I hear they found a flying saucer and are keeping it in the state warehouse.:rolleyes:The CSO will not release figures on how many or how much this is costing the country.....maybe its not in their own personal interests to do so ?
Not even the state old age pension?Over 50% of the people in the private sector do not have a pension.
You would have us believe that provate sector pensions are in some way different from public sector ones in that they don't cost anyone other than the beneficiary any money. This is simply not true.Those in the private sector who do have a pension , have paid in to the pension fund themselves,
Where did the money they invested in private pension funds come from, did they print it themselves or did they get it by charging us more for products and services? How many of the private sector workers benefit from the old age pension, more than what they paid in PRSI? How many have their pension funds topped up by the employers and who, ultimately pays for that?
The average public sector job is not industrial.Given the fact the average industrial wage is much less than the average public sector wage
Do you accept that most people in the PS do not get 'huge' pensions? And, can you state what you consider to be 'huge'?Public servants and politicians in Germany or anywhere else simply do not get the huge pensions people get here.0 -
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NewDubliner wrote: »I hear they found a flying saucer and are keeping it in the state warehouse.:rolleyes:
Maybe they would be better off at least trying to provide a better service / the statistics required ? What else do you think the CSO should do ?NewDubliner wrote: »Do you accept that most people in the PS do not get 'huge' pensions?
It was not me who used the word huge pension. It was a few well paid public servant friends , mortgage long cleared, one of whom is the owner of investment property, who privately told me of their huge pensions. Of course, I knew from their lifestyles etc they were not short of a few bob, or were ever likely to have financial worries.NewDubliner wrote: »And, can you state what you consider to be 'huge'?
Everything is relative. Ask the poster who wrote "
I'm not just pulling this out of my arse. My dad (My only real source for this PS information) is on half his salary when he's leaving and the state pension too.
Works out at about 70k a year or something ridiculous like that."0 -
Seems to me the begrudgers are out in force again. No sign of them when they were creaming it in the private sector during boom times.
The public sector took their own jobs based on the offer on the table to them. Im sure the salaries, pensions etc came into their decision, just like it plays a major part in my decision to take any job im offered too. Nobody should pick on anyone because they made a life choice, based on working conditions and payment for their job. We all do this when taking a job.
If you are in the private sector and have no pension, you have only yourself to blame. They should have sorted it out themselves, or found a job which pays a % of salary to your pension (mine for instance, matches my personal contribution up to 10% of my salary. ie i pay 10%, they pay another 10%).
Maybe it should be compulsory for 10% of everyones salary to go into a private pension.
Then we wouldnt have all this moaning now of "they get this and i dont. Its not fair, we cant afford it." Well we cant afford to pay the dole either for people who wont get off their asses and get a job.
A friend of mine is a builder. My parents want some work done on their house, because they need wheelchair access and so on now. I asked him would he do the work for €150 a day if we got all the materials and my Dad managed the project as he used to be a builder too before he retired. "Nope, im wont be able to do it for less than €200 a day" was his answer. The guy is on the dole.
There is 3 months work for him there if he wants it, but its beneath him. And then he goes around moaning that people are trying to get him to work for nothing. I thought i was doing him a favour. There are many people like that.
I have another friend who works in Fund administration. He got an effective 10% cut after his overtime was cut. He has to do the overtime to get the work done. I told him to stand up for himself, but of course he wont. I showed him a website with about 200 jobs he would walk into for 2 or more times what he gets paid now. All he has to do is go to London. Not interested. He would rather, sit in his own job, get pissed on and complain, than do something about it. I think he just likes to have a reason to complain.
Who cares if it takes us 5 years to recover here. I bet it takes the UK only 2 years at most. Go there and work. Anyone around in the 80's, 90's knows only too well that sometimes you have to travel to the work until it comes back here.
Its a myth that there are no jobs anywhere else either. There are always jobs for skilled workers.
Tip of the day for all the people feeling sorry for themselves and begrudging deals that others have made for themselves : www.jobserve.co.uk0 -
Not that many people / high a percentage were "creaming it" during boom times. Let me tell you a little story. I was chatting with a couple of people at the weekend. Both were about the same age with the same qualifications and had both worked in the public sector many years ago. About 10 years ago one moved elsewhere in the country (got married ) and have to leave the public service and settle for a private sector job with an american multinational. They were comparing pay , holidays, job security etc. One got 31 days holidays and the other only 21. One works longer hours per week. One has no pension. One get paid almost a third less than the other....no prizes for guessing more ( its the person in the private sector who is paid less). "Sickies" are really frowned upon. No flexitime.Seems to me the begrudgers are out in force again. No sign of them when they were creaming it in the private sector during boom times.If you are in the private sector and have no pension, you have only yourself to blame.
Many hundreds of thousands of people in the private sector simply cannot affort to pay in to a private pension the amount of money required which would equate with that required to provide a public service pension. A Gauard retiring at age 55 has a pension pot worth 1 million if he was to have funded it himself. How many people in the private sector could afford that ? Some people I know are not even making any money at the moment / taking any money out of their businesses. ( eg an architect / tiler / seller of luxury goods )Its a myth that there are no jobs anywhere else either. There are always jobs for skilled workers.
Not too many leaving the public sector, is there ? Even during the so called boom times the average private sector worker was still paid less than the average public sector worker. Same in retirement, as the RTE programme explained.0 -
So you're speaking on behalf of your 'public sector friends' too embarrassed to complain about the excessiveness of their pensions. And just for good measure, you claim, without evidence, that 50% of private sector people 'have no pension'.It was not me who used the word huge pension.
Your position is incredible.0 -
NewDubliner wrote: »So you're speaking on behalf of your 'public sector friends' too embarrassed to complain about the excessiveness of their pensions. .
I am not speaking on behalf of anyone, I am just saying what a couple of people admitted. The truth is there to see, as the RTE programme explained. Even another poster on this very thread wrote that his " dad (My only real source for this PS information) is on half his salary when he's leaving and the state pension too.
Works out at about 70k a year or something ridiculous like that."NewDubliner wrote: »And just for good measure, you lie about 50% of private sector people 'having no pension'.
Excuse me, I did not lie about anything. Do you really think that 50% or more of private sector people have a private pension ? Think of all the people who work in shops, restaurants, offices, hotels, factories, farms, workshops, building sites ....do you really they ( or most of them ) all pay in to private pension schemes ? They get the old age pension like everyone else. I know some self employed people who paid tax all their lives and did not get an old age pension, as they were means tested, but that may have changed now for the self employed, I dont know about that specific point.
Its not, I find myself in the same position as most people. The minority of the people in the country ( approx 300,000 ) are entitled to the gravy pensions train, as RTE explained. How many are on the train, they did not say. I doubt if the good people at the CSO would be very efficient at coughing up that info, either.NewDubliner wrote: »Your position is incredible.0 -
Jimmmy = The Number 1 begrudger
That guy is just pulling stuff out of his arse.
Its brown and it aint the truth.0 -
Please go for the ball, not the player. Personal attacks are not pleasant.
I suppose you will say the RTE programme that was dedicated to the subject was just some "guy pulling stuff out of his arse."
Charming, but then what else would be expected.0 -
Not even yourself.I am not speaking on behalf of anyone
This 'truth' has been challenged, with facts, in this thread.The truth is there to see, as the RTE programme explained.
So, some anonymous kid whose father has a 100k salary in a semi-state is the factual basis of your argument?Even another poster on this very thread wrote that his " dad (My only real source for this PS information) is on half his salary when he's leaving and the state pension too.
You have a poor memory, You stated:Do you really think that 50% or more of private sector people have a private pension ?
You did not state 'private' pension.Over 50% of the people in the private sector do not have a pension
Stick to facts please.0 -
Please go for the ball, not the player. Personal attacks are not pleasant.
I suppose you will say the RTE programme that was dedicated to the subject was just some "guy pulling stuff out of his arse."
Charming, but then what else would be expected.
Its not an attack.
Its an observation of your statements in this and other threads. And a very accurate observation i should think.
Was it RTE who made "High Society"? Look it up. Didnt they pull that one out of their arses too?0 -
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NewDubliner wrote: »You stated: You did not state 'private' pension.
Stick to facts please.
I am sticking to facts, the same as the RTE programme stuck to facts. Of course if people have the option of paying in to a pension, some do, and some dont...and yes that is a "private" pension. Few people in the private sector have a "private" pension ( or any other type of pension for that matter ) as generous as the public sector gravy train pension.0
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