Athlone bypass! should it be a motorway?

mysterious

dannym08 wrote: »

mysteriouis, who, other than you, has said the words "I want a blue road", im pretty sure you'll find that no one, no one, has said that other than you. will you please stop sayin it. Its gettin pathetic like, when ever you have nothing to say you jus say that we wanty our blue road and thats that

It's either that, or really really pathetic examples and excuses for it.

I've clearly corrected murphaph on his examples, yet again.:rolleyes:

L1011

mysterious wrote: »

Since it's already green I'm not the one screaming and hawning I want my blue road.

I think you'll find you're the only person "screaming and hawning" any viewpoint on this thread; and your viewpoint is a vicious desire for a green road...

On this and the previous thread you were asked to provide any examples, even one, of someone saying something even approaching "I want my blue road" - other than you in your fake quotes. You failed to.

Amtmann

Lads is it not time to call it a day on this issue? I mean we've had umpteen pages of the same spiel over and over and over again.

It's in Noel Dempsey's hands now.

BluntGuy

Mysterious wrote:

It's either that, or really really pathetic examples and excuses for it.

Hmmm...

I accept facts.

They can stop people from using it as a walkway. Doesn't mean it has to be a motorway.

The same way they make a law don't let your dog **** on the pavement. Very simple.

BTW I said minimum of a 1000 tractors a day. You have to take into consideration it's the only bridging point on the Shannon for 30miles with the Athlone town bridge inclusive.

Though my stances would be fairly about right

Direct quote from other thread:

Anyway what is the big deal about a few tractors. I'd hardly see tractors on this road anyhow.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59556000&postcount=38

The problem with the Athlone bypass it isn't up to spec, so it doesnt get redesignated, it is not because of farmers, leaners or people walking their dog.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59572121&postcount=83

I do believe cyclists, pedstiransa and off road developments can be banned. That can't to much of a problem. The Athlone bypass is high gradient there won't be any developments built off it. The existing interchanges there are provided for all movements. People are using the development balony as another excuse in this argument.

Learners don't need to be taken off it, the speed is the same as the existing national primary routes. The speed limit is 100kmh. In 19 years of use, there was never an issue with learners using it. There is to many closley spaced interchanges too, so speed and motorway restiction isn't going to have any effect. And as some said here, there won't be a drastic numbers of tractors on it or whatever, why ban them?

My motive is the Atlone bypass doesn't need to be a motorway. It's not a motorway and it's an all purpose DC that has a 100kmh speed limit slapped on it. It is fine as it is. If the road is upgraded and weaving lanes are provided between the tightly spaced junctions along it's lenght

Then it should be upgraded to motorway. Motorways needs to have at leat 2km between interchanges if I'm correct. The existing alternative route is not adequate enough for this to be suddenly turned into a motoway.

This bypass is not just for N6 traffic. It has a lower speed limit than a motorway. Therefore tractors DO not need to be forced into the town. This bypass is 3/4 of local traffic. This is a high percentage. There would be atleast a 1000 tractors if not more a day using the existing bypass bridge to get from one side of the Shannon to the other. This cannot be put into Athlone town. End of story.

BluntGuy

Furet wrote: »

It's in Noel Dempsey's hands now.

Don't remind me.

mysterious

MYOB wrote: »

I think you'll find you're the only person "screaming and hawning" any viewpoint on this thread; and your viewpoint is a vicious desire for a green road...

On this and the previous thread you were asked to provide any examples, even one, of someone saying something even approaching "I want my blue road" - other than you in your fake quotes. You failed to.

It's the Athlone bypass, I'm happy as it is.
Signage and road resurfaced a bonus. It is fine.
If the council want to ban pedstrians/Cyclists then go ahead.

There is nothing vicious about my stance. Why do you want it motorway. You haven't given me a direct answer yet. You keep saying safety safety. But the speed limit is 100kmh anyway. The same speed as a national primary route. They have tractors on it. Why is it such a big safety issue. When all the tractors are doing is trying to get over the bridge and not have to navigate through the town of Athlone. Why is there an obsession to benifet only the N6 users here. The Athlone bypass has been in use for all types of traffic for the last 20 years. There is not direct siding here for just motorway traffic. The alternative route is a medieval main street with a narrow bridge over the Shannon. The Athlone bypass is not up to full spec. So it has no real reason to make it a blue road. SImple as that.

It's you that is taking this to extremity. Oh btw, look up the word vicious.

SeanW

Furet wrote: »

Lads is it not time to call it a day on this issue? I mean we've had umpteen pages of the same spiel over and over and over again.

I'm still waiting for mysterious to either provide evidence for his "at least 1000 tractors through the town per day" statement, or admit that he pulled it from out thin air.

I get the feeling though that I would be waiting a very long time

In fact, I'm still waiting for (properly evidenced) answers to a few questions.
1) How much traffic will be affected by redesignation? remember I'm looking for an evidence based estimate that I can actually read without laughing, as opposed to some screaming "I WANT MY GREEN DUAL CARRIAGEWAY" type posting made up 'facts.'
2) What the hell do learner drivers have to do with it, given that any learner who uses his/her permit for commuting or whatever is already breaking road laws, and any law abiding L plater will have an accompanying driver to take the wheel?
3) How is the N6 Athlone Bypass any different to the M50, which also has suboptimal features?
Remember I'm looking for anything in Irish law or motorway code that explicitly prevents a feature of the Bypass from being redesignated.

mysterious wrote:

You are screaming ... agenda here, for any excuse, even if it is lies.

Glass house, stones ...

murphaph

mysterious wrote: »

If the council want to ban pedstrians/Cyclists then go ahead.

Again you show your complete ignorance of the law. The council HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT to permanently ban pedestrians or cyclists from the bypass. I'm sick correcting you.

I think it's obvious enough now that Mysterious has a vested interest and is not telling us the whole picture.

The southern cross of the M50 has MUCH WORSE sightlines, with worse horizontal and vertical alignments than the Athlone bypass. He clearly doesn't have an engineering eye or something because most laymen can see that.

He also believes that adding umpteen smilies validates his erroneous points. They do not.

murphaph

SeanW wrote: »

I'm still waiting for mysterious to either provide evidence for his "at least 1000 tractors through the town per day" statement, or admit that he pulled it from out thin air.

He just made it up like he made up "the council can ban peds and cyclists from the bypass". Both untrue. I won't call them lies however, just misinformed twaddle.

mysterious

murphaph wrote: »

He just made it up like he made up "the council can ban peds and cyclists from the bypass". Both untrue. I won't call them lies however, just misinformed twaddle.

Why can't the council do this, I mean politicians and councilors make the craziest laws right. Why can't they take pedestrians on it.

I mean it's against the law to walk on the HS too. But people still do, what's to say that people wont walk it when they are blue sigs. If the council can't enforce it for these reasons.

This world is pathetic.:rolleyes: The elites and people in power make laws, we follow them, They break the laws, they twist laws, they change laws.


Why is it so "difficult" for the powers of be to make a law on this DC?

mysterious

SeanW wrote: »

I'm still waiting for mysterious to either provide evidence for his "at least 1000 tractors through the town per day" statement, or admit that he pulled it from out thin air.

It's a rough estimate, yeah and I'm good at these predicitions;)
But anyway, if it were even true, would it make much difference to your I want my blue road argument.

Hardly

I get the feeling though that I would be waiting a very long time

Well waitng won't make any impact on your views regardless.

I would even say if the Athlone town bridge fell into the Shannon, you would still be screaming for the Athlone bypass to be made motorway. I'm pretty sure of that at this stage.

In fact, I'm still waiting for (properly evidenced) answers to a few questions.
1) How much traffic will be affected by redesignation? remember I'm looking for an evidence based estimate that I can actually read without laughing, as opposed to some screaming "I WANT MY GREEN DUAL CARRIAGEWAY" type posting made up 'facts.'

Why don't you find out.

BTW what if there is a large number of traffic pushed off the AThlone bypass, where is the alternative traffic going to go?

2) What the hell do learner drivers have to do with it, given that any learner who uses his/her permit for commuting or whatever is already breaking road laws, and any law abiding L plater will have an accompanying driver to take the wheel?

They have been permitted to use the bypass for the last 20 years, why should they suddenly be taken off it. What is the deal with them using it?

3) How is the N6 Athlone Bypass any different to the M50, which also has suboptimal features?

• Athlone bypass has steeper curves.
• Closwer spaced interchanges
• Doesn't have a design speed of 120kmh.
• it' an all purpose DC
• It's not a toll road
• it's not a motorway.

Remember I'm looking for anything in Irish law or motorway code that explicitly prevents a feature of the Bypass from being redesignated.

Why are you not looking for such facts? It seems like your really showing I just want my blue road, cus your not even bothered to take both sides of the argument, infact your showing no interest in actually genuinely questioning are they are negatives to it been made motorway.

No surprise there:D

Steviemak

Listen guys - all the points have be raised again and again. Nobody, especially Mysterious, is going to change their minds on this.

Therefore, there is no longer any reason for this thread.

Lock it down and lets discuss something a bit more productive.

SeanW

mysterious wrote: »

* It's a rough estimate, yeah and I'm good at these predicitions
* But anyway, if it were even true, would it make much difference to your I want my blue road argument.
* Why don't you find out.

* BTW what if there is a large number of traffic pushed off the AThlone bypass, where is the alternative traffic going to go?



* They have been permitted to use the bypass for the last 20 years, why should they suddenly be taken off it. What is the deal with them using it?

• Athlone bypass has steeper curves.
• Closwer spaced interchanges
• Doesn't have a design speed of 120kmh.
• it' an all purpose DC
• It's not a toll road
• it's not a motorway.

* I seriously doubt it
* If there were evidence that a surge of motorway forbidden was going to descend on Athlone Town, I would oppose reclassification. But there is no evidence of this - only someone on a message board screaming "I WANT MY GREEN DUAL CARRIAGEWAY" and making up facts as he goes along.
* You made a bunch of claims - I'm asking you to back those up with evidence.
* Under new laws (well, 2007) a road can be reclassified Motorway by Ministerial order. The situation regarding L drivers has also changed. No L Driver will be stopped from using the Bypass. Fact. If a learner driver is not appropriately accompanies, they are already breaking the law and where they drive does not change this. A law abiding L driver will simply hop into the passenger seat while their accompanying driver takes the wheel. I repeat, no L drivers will be stopped from using the bypass. It's a red herring.

• Not by much, if at all.
• Ditto
• Neither does the M50 ... anymore. Going from the Northern Cross Route to the M50, the mainline of the Motorway goes around a roundabout!
• Not an issue since 2007
• Neither are a lot of other Motorways - red herring.
• Not an issue since 2007

BTW since you're so fond of quoting foreign highway codes - here's a little something for you to chew on, a "Pathetic Motorways" listing for the A6144M "Motorway" in the UK, a low quality single carriageway that was declared Motorway to attract Industrial traffic away from residential streets.
If Irish Motorway codes are anything similar to those of the U.K. there may not be anything to stop our Minister from doing the same thing here - indeed we have our own single carriageway Motorway, the M32, but that's more to do with "no escape" laws which are also copied from the UK.

You have specifically claimed that the N6 Athlone Bypass is not up to the "standard" of a Motorway. I would like you to show from Irish road law what features of the N6 Athlone Bypass disqualify it from being redesignated. I have more reason than not to believe there is nothing to do so.

murphaph

mysterious wrote: »

Why can't the council do this

Because there's no Act of the Oireachtais that grants any county council the power to restrict classes of vehicles or road user on any road. County Councils are not elected to legislate-they can make bye-laws when granted the legal authority to do so by the Oireachtais. They can't make their own laws in their own area, thank God!

murphaph

mysterious wrote: »

It's a rough estimate, yeah and I'm good at these predicitions;)
But anyway, if it were even true, would it make much difference to your I want my blue road argument.

Hardly

If you can prove there's anywhere near a 1000 tractors using the Shannon Bridge I'll recant my aspiration for the entire bypass to be reclassified.

mysterious wrote: »

They [learner drivers] have been permitted to use the bypass for the last 20 years, why should they suddenly be taken off it. What is the deal with them using it?

Learner drivers are irrelevant to any motorway discussion. They shouldn't be driving alone ANYWHERE, green or blue road so it's a complete irrelevance, isn't that right mysterious? Isn't it right that learners shouldn't be driving alone???

mysterious wrote: »

Athlone bypass has steeper curves.

No it doesn't. Check out the Southern Cross route-at least as severe if not more so and on top of the horizontal alignment issues, has sveral vertical alignment issues not even present in the FLAT Midlands (M50 Southern Cross runs east-west across the foothills of the Dublin Mountains-you can see across the city from points along it FFS)

mysterious wrote: »

Closwer spaced interchanges

Junction spacing between J9 and J10 on the M50 Western Parkway as close as you'll find and more vehicles pass between these two junctions alone than use the entire Athlone Bypass every day.

mysterious wrote: »

Doesn't have a design speed of 120kmh.

How do you know what its design speed is? Msot 120km/h motorways actually have a design speed of 160km/h! Did you even know that? It's called a safety margin. If you mean it doesn't have a 120km/h posted speed well then nor does ANY of the upgraded M50!

mysterious wrote: »

it' an all purpose DC

Part of the original Western Parkway was an all purpose S2! It's D4M now.

mysterious wrote: »

It's not a toll road

Only the stretches between J1 and J2 (Port Tunnel) and between J6 and J7 are tolled Mysterious. The vast bulk of the M50 (especially the windier bits) are all untolled.

mysterious wrote: »

it's not a motorway.

Yet.

Steviemak

Steviemak wrote: »

Listen guys - all the points have be raised again and again. Nobody, especially Mysterious, is going to change their minds on this.

Therefore, there is no longer any reason for this thread.

Lock it down and lets discuss something a bit more productive.

The survey results show a clear preference to it being a motorway!

veryangryman

Would i be right in saying that there was rumour of proposals to build a bridge from Golden Island over to other side of town a few years back

Maybe i dreamed it, not sure

veryangryman

veryangryman wrote: »

Would i be right in saying that there was rumour of proposals to build a bridge from Golden Island over to other side of town a few years back

Maybe i dreamed it, not sure

I saw the same story in one of the local rags as well....

It was someones dream!

flazio

OK answer me these questions, if the bypass is upgraded to motorway,
Can all exits remain open or will some like Garrycastle and lower Coosan have to close?
What percentage of vehicles curently using the bypass will have to avoid the motorway?
Can the current alternative route cope with the traffic forced to divert away from the bypass?

Amtmann

Flazio, you have just reopened Pandora's Box.

mysterious

flazio wrote: »

OK answer me these questions, if the bypass is upgraded to motorway,
Can all exits remain open or will some like Garrycastle and lower Coosan have to close?
What percentage of vehicles curently using the bypass will have to avoid the motorway?
Can the current alternative route cope with the traffic forced to divert away from the bypass?

In fairness this is something they are obliged to do, before they do any reclassification. The Athlone bypass is not like the other inter urbans. It's a multi purpose road, that carries all other traffic and not just N6 traffic and has been opened for the last 20 years. So it isn't just as matter of going hey let's make this motorway. Their has to be some contraints study or somethign before anything is done. The existing alternative route is just to risky to too designate it as an "alternative route for the motorway" It's the towns mainthroughfare and is already chronic with congestion. The bridge can't cope with anymore traffic, there needs to be another bridge over the Shannon. If they go ahead and change the second crossing to motorway, it's just going to detriorate the traffic and situation in Athlone town.

I would be very interested to see the figures of traffic. which would be alternative type avoiding the bypass. Afterall it's 20 years of all traffic. There will be negative effects on the town for sure. I'm interested to know the facts and to how much extent it wil affect the town.

BluntGuy

flazio wrote: »

OK answer me these questions, if the bypass is upgraded to motorway,
Can all exits remain open or will some like Garrycastle and lower Coosan have to close?

As far as we're aware, all exits remain open.

What percentage of vehicles curently using the bypass will have to avoid the motorway?

That's hard to say, but I'd imagine it would be quite low. I don't think there are many vehicles incapable of 50 km/h. Learners will not be affected as their accompanying driver will take control on the motorway.

Can the current alternative route cope with the traffic forced to divert away from the bypass?

If the percentage of traffic banned from the motorway is quite low, it will not have a significant impact on the alternative route.

mysterious

BluntGuy wrote: »

If the percentage of traffic banned from the motorway is quite low, it will not have a significant impact on the alternative route.

But the centre of Athlone is full of medieval streets. L drivers are not a big concern, but putting tractors and other such traffic will clog up the streets. The Last time I passed through Athlone by bus, it took 30mins to pass through it, it's awful, windy, narrow and very easy to get lost.

I just don't think it's fair to force this on a bypass that has been in place for the last 20 years, and expect everyone to change over and go through the town.

SeanW

Ok, first of all, no junctions are set to be closed. Let's be clear about that.
2nd of all, those screaming "it's not right to send all that traffic through the town" have given no indication of what "all that traffic" amounts to, only "facts" that some guy on a message board pulled out of his backside while screaming "I WANT MY GREEN DUAL CARRIAGEWAY!"

Almost every one of Mysterious's posts on the matter have been shown to be logically insolvent at best, a case of the pot calling the kettle black at worst.

What percentage of vehicles curently using the bypass will have to avoid the motorway?

Good question. Unfortunately, you won't find a good answer but there are a lot of stupid and wild claims that it will be a wall of traffic big enough to crush Athlone Town Centre into the dirt! The only problem is that these claims are totally unsubstantiated by fact and require the reader to explicity trust figures someone pulled out of thin air.

In another thread we even had some idiot claiming that the only reason the M50 isn't redesignated N-Road Dual Carriageway is because it couldn't handle all the L Drivers and tractors ...

The poll here has shown a massive preference for redesignation because most people see no point in having our own M6 Cumberland Gap for no good reason, and can clearly see that the reasons posted against redesignation are either bad reasons (like intereference with development plans) or - like what has been posted here - total nonsense.

KevR

I'm sorry but I have to bring this up again - I have yet to drive on the Athlone Bypass and see the vast majority of traffic keeping to the 100kmh speed limit. Most people drive at roughly 110kmh and many closer to 120kmh. If most people drive at these speeds everyday and there isn't regular carnage on that stretch of road then that's proof that it's a safe speed to drive at.

When you come the whole way from Oranmore in Galway on the single carriageway N6 doing 100kmh (except through towns, villages and roadworks) it feels natural to up your speed a bit on the far superior Athlone Bypass. Also, it might be your first opportunity to safely overtake after having been stuck behind a slow truck for ages.

I don't find the sightlines or number of junctions a problem going slightly over the speed limit. The thing I tend to notice most about the Athlone Bypass when comparing it to Irish motorways is that it's a lot busier. That's not a problem in relation to safety travelling at motorway speed because if traffic gets congested enough it will slow down naturally.

I wouldn't be too put out if it was redesignated and the speed remained at 100kmh though - it's not an unreasonable speed for the bypass either.

Zoney

KevR,

There is *supposed* to be a safety margin above the speed limits (I think for the 120km/h routes it is 160 km/h) so all that your observation means is that it is probably safe to keep the speed limits at 100 km/h (someone was questioning whether this was even too high).

I think a lot of people voting for 120 km/h are forgetting that you would need to safely drive at 140 km/h (at least) to apply such a speed limit.

murphaph

Here we have an example of why high speed dual carriageways should always have motorway restrictions placed on them...(this is the ALL PURPOSE A35 in England and here we see a foreign registered lorry ploughing into the back of a tractor and trailer. The farmer died instantly at the scene.).......

Pic courtessy SABRE.

Amtmann

That will happen here too. Sadly it is only a matter of time.

BluntGuy

Proof that it is not safe for slow vehicles to be stuttering along these high-speed roads.

That tractor could've easily been a cyclist, pedestrian etc.

KevR

About 20 mins ago I saw a cyclist on the N6 Oranmore Dual Carriageway cycling on the hard shoulder right out on the edge beside the broken yellow line. I don't know why the hell he wasn't at least trying to keep in more to the left side of the hard shoulder - would have at least given him an error margin against the 100kmh traffic.

It's no place for a cyclist (or a pedestrian or a tractor) but he was perfectly entitled to be there. But then again, just because it's not against the law it doesn't make it right or ok. He needs his head checked.