Wind turbine water immersion set up

niceirishfella

Water boiling in not good for hard water areas

- not a problem, just install a water softner.
Plus if there enought people in the house using hot water for washing/showers/baths, stagnation not an issue.

Joey the lips

quentingargan wrote: »

The price ESB pays for electricity exported back to the grid is currently 19c for the first 3,000 units per year, and 9c after that.

Yes, I am involved in manufacturing a turbine. We have had a Scottish machine for a number of years which powered our house (via batteries), but I wanted a second one to run our electric car on a grid-tie system. I had tried numerous low cost turbines all of which failed miserably, which was what inspired the idea of producing a machine.

Battery based systems are low voltage, high current and very inefficient, so compared to that option, water heating directly from the turbine 3~ is probably a reasonable proposal. But modern high voltage grid tie inverters have efficiency in the region of 96%.

The actual turbine being proposed for this project may well be a reasonable machine, but it is being mis-sold using optimistic (fantasy?) output figures and that is what is being called into question.

Your wasteing your time on this one. No one doubt its a white elephant but usually when it comes to laying down money its shuts everyone up.

I can just see them being sold by the dozen in smithfield.

Gale

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your wasteing your time on this one. No one doubt its a white elephant but usually when it comes to laying down money its shuts everyone up.

I can just see them being sold by the dozen in smithfield.

Joey, people are spending 5000 euro plus, on solar systems just to heat their domestic hot water, are they all wasting their time?

Joey the lips

Gale wrote: »

Joey, people are spending 5000 euro plus, on solar systems just to heat their domestic hot water, are they all wasting their time?

Whats that got to do with this application?:rolleyes:

What has a solar application costing 5000 euro which most likely involves solar panels which will eventually pay for themselves got to do with a wind turbine at a heavy cost connected to an immersion which will never return its investment

Oh now i see your point the wind turbine connected to the immersion is a white elephant... Good idea. Have you installed it yet.

ferngreen

I work for a company who supply and install these systems so I feel my 2 cents may benefit this thread.

Gale wrote: »

lets say i save 400 from not using my immersion, and another 250 from reductions in my oil bill in the winter, since the oil burner will not have to heat my water, thats 750. Future Energy do a good small turbine for 700, if i could get it up on a pole and a suitable immersion type device connected up for another 700, it looks like a sound investment to me

Above in a nutshell you have the idea spot on!

Joey the lips wrote: »

You have totally missed the point I am afraid. Your heating is already heating your water in the winter you cant change or stop that! So the only saving is on your immersion in the summer as its connected directly to it. You will actually be dumping energy in the winter but again you seem to have the figures worked out

Go right ahead knock yourself out and enjoy! Your last line is very funny though thanks

One coil goes into your cylinder to heat the water IF it is required to supplement your water heating (which all systems need to i.e. you must bring the temp in your cylinder to 60c once a week to prevent bacteria building up in it)
If the water is heated by the turbine then your heating system does not heat the water it by passes it.

Low Energy Eng wrote: »

Hi Joey,

If the water has been heated up to adequate temperature in the winter from the wind turbine the stat on the calorifier will divert any heating produced from the boiler away.

Depending on the age of the installation of course, but anything built in the last 10-12 years at least should be set up as above.

Regards
Conor

Conor,

you have it there


All in all this is a very simple system I have seen it in operation (we have one on site) 3 coils are screwed into your cylinder and heat the water one comes from the boiler as back up.
Heats the hot water in the cylinder when the tank is full of hot water the smart system decides to either dump the water into the heating system or stops the wind mill from turning.

<SNIP> I'm not sure what I can say on this board without getting band as I'm new to the forum

hope it helps

Joey the lips

ferngreen wrote: »

I work for a company who supply and install these systems so I feel my 2 cents may benefit this thread.



Above in a nutshell you have the idea spot on!



One coil goes into your cylinder to heat the water IF it is required to supplement your water heating (which all systems need to i.e. you must bring the temp in your cylinder to 60c once a week to prevent bacteria building up in it)
If the water is heated by the turbine then your heating system does not heat the water it by passes it.



Conor,

you have it there


All in all this is a very simple system I have seen it in operation (we have one on site) 3 coils are screwed into your cylinder and heat the water one comes from the boiler as back up.
Heats the hot water in the cylinder when the tank is full of hot water the smart system decides to either dump the water into the heating system or stops the wind mill from turning.
<SNIP> I'm not sure what I can say on this board without getting band as I'm new to the forum

hope it helps

Yoour missing the point i think. Its not the principle of how it works. The principle is fine. Its the viability. This is not a viable option. If you can enlighten me please do,

ferngreen

Joey the lips wrote: »

Yoour missing the point i think. Its not the principle of how it works. The principle is fine. Its the viability. This is not a viable option. If you can enlighten me please do,

how is it not viable?

simple system wnd powers the motor motor powers the cable, cable powers the elements, elements heat your water.

saves money on oil bill

Whats not viable about that??

Any questions please ask

Joey the lips

ferngreen wrote: »

how is it not viable?

simple system wnd powers the motor motor powers the cable, cable powers the elements, elements heat your water.

saves money on oil bill

Whats not viable about that??

Any questions please ask

Imagine I know nothing which I dont! explain the simple equation of costs. I figure operating costs on gas are as follows. Feel free to correct me.

How much does hot water cost a family a year! Just hot water! Hot water is 20% of your gas/oil bill. This is the norm. Allowing 160 euro every 2 months thats 960 a year roughly on gas @ 20% water thatw 200 euro a year on hot water. How much does a propper system cost and how long will the return be.

This all assumes that you are getting a costant wind supply of course! It does not take into account that you may have to override the system.

I tend to feel that a far greater use would be for everyone to continue as is buying electricity from the grid but selling it back if you can produce it. This has 2 benefits. It will ensure that if supply exceeds demand the unit cost to you will go down that you are paying from the grid. but if supply is greater than demand then the greater price you receive per unit will off set any rise in electricity. Simple dont you think!

Or can you suggest an alternative?

ferngreen

Joey the lips wrote: »

Imagine I know nothing which I dont! explain the simple equation of costs. I figure operating costs on gas are as follows. Feel free to correct me.

How much does hot water cost a family a year! Just hot water! Hot water is 20% of your gas/oil bill. This is the norm. Allowing 160 euro every 2 months thats 960 a year roughly on gas @ 20% water thatw 200 euro a year on hot water. How much does a propper system cost and how long will the return be.

This all assumes that you are getting a costant wind supply of course! It does not take into account that you may have to override the system.

I tend to feel that a far greater use would be for everyone to continue as is buying electricity from the grid but selling it back if you can produce it. This has 2 benefits. It will ensure that if supply exceeds demand the unit cost to you will go down that you are paying from the grid. but if supply is greater than demand then the greater price you receive per unit will off set any rise in electricity. Simple dont you think!

Or can you suggest an alternative?

I wont get cuaght up in quoting figures because it would be untruthful of me to stating how much homes cost to heat water etc as I cant as an individual answer that!! kind ofhow long is a piece of string question!

I agree with you in the principle of larger wind turbines to micro generate electricity and improve the ratio of supply and demand but this is not the thread for it. I could talk all day about how good the esb generating systems are.

but the question the thread starter is asking is about the smaller wind turbines to save him money on his water heating. which it will.

Ireland has wind all year long so its a waste not to use it. the small wind turbines are an excellent idea and a great alternitive to solar panels. and very affordable (by comparison)

muffler

ferngreen wrote: »

<SNIP> I'm not sure what I can say on this board without getting band as I'm new to the forum

Start by reading the forum charter which is stickied on the front page.

Joey the lips

ferngreen wrote: »

I wont get cuaght up in quoting figures because it would be untruthful of me to stating how much homes cost to heat water etc as I cant as an individual answer that!! kind ofhow long is a piece of string question!

I agree with you in the principle of larger wind turbines to micro generate electricity and improve the ratio of supply and demand but this is not the thread for it. I could talk all day about how good the esb generating systems are.

but the question the thread starter is asking is about the smaller wind turbines to save him money on his water heating. which it will.

Ireland has wind all year long so its a waste not to use it. the small wind turbines are an excellent idea and a great alternitive to solar panels. and very affordable (by comparison)

Your in the business i thought! Surely like all businesses you have estimates! Ireland might have wind all year round but that does not mean the wind is strong enough or suitable for a turbine.

I wonder how involved you really are if you cant discuss figures. You have corrected me for correcting someone else but you expect me to take your word. I am using simple logic and the logic says your wrong. You need to back yourself up. I will respect your figures and thank you! The wuestion was not about heating water the question was the viability of connecting a windturbine to an immersion. This is a bit different. What happens when the heating is on. Do you by pass the coil in the tank. Surley this is a waste! What happens when you have a full tank quickly as you will in winter. What do you do with the excess power! Dump it! Do you see why i question your knowledge.

You need to give me figures. Costs of heating water, cost of turbines.

Lastly haveing sold and installed solar cells I know that wind turbines are not an alternative. They are not! They are complimentary just like geothermal is. an alternative to the wind turbine would be the grid. It does not follow that if one does not work the other will. Dont you agree.

quentingargan

Solar is cost effective at heating hot water because it displaces the immersion heater, which is more expensive to run than oil. During summer time, when the oil fired central heating is off, your hot water is more expensive - if using electricity, that would be about 16c per KwHr.

During winter, (when there is most wind), the central heating is usually running. At such times, the hot water is coming from oil - usually at a cost of about 7c per Kw Hr. This should be the base price for most of the income from your turbine if it is just heating water.

The other simple fact is that as has been pointed out, particularly by Dr L, the manufacturers have grossly over-stated the likely output of the turbine anywhere other than the top of a mountain. In most domestic situations, at a mast height of 10m or so, the turbine will be far less efficient.

If there was any such thing as a device that had a two year payback (and could last more than two years of course:)) then everyone would have one.

My problem isn't with the system, it is with the claimed payback time. Well meaning folk might like to do this for carbon neutrality reasons.

muffler

I can see where this thread is going and a couple of people posting in it will not be pleased.

Settle down a bit and behave like adults and leave the abusive and snide remarks at home.

Just so you all know - I dont repeat myself

Joey the lips

quentingargan wrote: »

Solar is cost effective at heating hot water because it displaces the immersion heater, which is more expensive to run than oil. During summer time, when the oil fired central heating is off, your hot water is more expensive - if using electricity, that would be about 16c per KwHr.

During winter, (when there is most wind), the central heating is usually running. At such times, the hot water is coming from oil - usually at a cost of about 7c per Kw Hr. This should be the base price for most of the income from your turbine.

The other simple fact is that as has been pointed out, particularly by Dr L, you have grossly over-stated the likely output of your turbine anywhere other than the top of a mountain. In most domestic situations, at a mast height of 10m or so, your turbine will be far less efficient.

If there was any such thing as a device that had a two year payback (and could last more than two years of course:)) then everyone would have one.

My problem isn't with your system, it is with the way you sell it. Well meaning folk might like to do this, but please don't con them with promises of ludicruous payback times, unless you want to restrict your customer base to fools.

I dont understand? To who are you addressing.My problem is not the system either its the use of the system but your information is very interesting.

quentingargan

Joey the lips wrote: »

I dont understand? To who are you addressing.My problem is not the system either its the use of the system but your information is very interesting.

Sorry Joey - my remarks were not addressed to you. My reservations were about the promised payback time of the wind to hot water system.

I accept the request from Muffler to behave. My point is that there are people who would be happy to have a wind to hot water system and would accept the benefits of being carbon neutral etc., even if the payback time were 20 years or more.

In our home, we put in a wind turbine ourselves some years back and at the time I accepted that the financial payback time of it would be seventy-odd years. I did that because we wanted to pioneer new systems and have a carbon neutral electricity supply.

Thankfully, systems have come down in price since then, and along with incentives from ESB, on a good site, payback times of 12 to 14 years are possible with grid tied systems.

It has been shown on various posts earlier on here and on other posts that many people in various renewable energy industries make claims for return on invstment that are totally unrealistic. I don't think that's necessary - nobody expects a 20% to 50% return on investment.

Joey the lips

quentingargan wrote: »

Sorry Joey - my remarks were not addressed to you. My reservations were about the promised payback time of the wind to hot water system.

I accept the request from Muffler to behave. My point is that there are people who would be happy to have a wind to hot water system and would accept the benefits of being carbon neutral etc., even if the payback time were 20 years or more.

In our home, we put in a wind turbine ourselves some years back and at the time I accepted that the financial payback time of it would be seventy-odd years. I did that because we wanted to pioneer new systems and have a carbon neutral electricity supply.

Thankfully, systems have come down in price since then, and along with incentives from ESB, on a good site, payback times of 12 to 14 years are possible with grid tied systems.

It has been shown on various posts earlier on here and on other posts that many people in various renewable energy industries make claims for return on invstment that are totally unrealistic. I don't think that's necessary - nobody expects a 20% to 50% return on investment.

12 to 14 years has always what i expected to see on any good systems return. Its a shame you greened at the wrong time but well done