I was right about Lewis

thegoth

I remember saying here that Alonso and Lewis are cut from the same cloth as Senna and Schmuacher, i.e they will do anything to win.

Some people were painting Schmuacher as a criminal for what he had done on track, ignoring what Senna did. I gave the opinion that I was certain that Alonso and Lewis would have similar incidents before the end of their career.

Looks like I was right about Lewis

EvilMonkey

Don't forget Alonso's involvement in spygate(i hate that word)!

thegoth

Yes, Alonso is no saint

De Hipster

Surely it is in the nature of a champion then?!

voxpop

Martin Brundle (i think) said it - basically to be at the top of their sport, all the drivers are somewhat egotistical and self centred, doing whatever they can to win. If they weren't then they wouldn't be top of their game.

thegoth

voxpop wrote: »

Martin Brundle (i think) said it - basically to be at the top of their sport, all the drivers are somewhat egotistical and self centred, doing whatever they can to win. If they weren't then they wouldn't be top of their game.

Could not agree more. I have used this EXACT argument when defending what Schmuacher did against Hill, Villenevue, and at Monaco in 2006.

I dont believe I EVER heard Brundle or any member of the English media use this line when Schmuacher was guilty of similar things. Double standards.

The problem that I have with Lewis over this incident is not the crime he comitted but the fact he publicly blamed this Dave guy today in front of the world's media. What a team player. What a guy

RayM

thegoth wrote: »

The problem that I have with Lewis over this incident is not the crime he comitted but the fact he publicly blamed this Dave guy today in front of the world's media. What a team player. What a guy

My guess is that Dave Ryan 'took one for the team'. Even if Hamilton had wanted to tell the full truth, and land himself in it, I doubt McLaren would have allowed him to.

thegoth

What are you basising this on ? Do you know him ?

I doubt VERY much that a guy who is nearly at the end of his career in motor sport after 35 years service wants his legacy to be that of a cheat !!

Here is something I posted on another thread

Does you think, for one second, that if this exact thing happened in to Michael Schmuacher with Ferrari, that they would have reacted in the same way ? Of course not. They would have stuck together as a team. NOONE would be mentioned by name at any interview. It would be something like "The team made some questionable decisions maybe, and we have been punished. We are looking forward to the rest of the weekend. Thank you"

De Hipster

thegoth wrote: »

What are you basising this on ? Do you know him ?

I doubt VERY much that a guy who is nearly at the end of his career in motor sport after 35 years service wants his legacy to be that of a cheat !!

Here is something I posted on another thread

Does you think, for one second, that if this exact thing happened in to Michael Schmuacher with Ferrari, that they would have reacted in the same way ? Of course not. They would have stuck together as a team. NOONE would be mentioned by name at any interview. It would be something like "The team made some questionable decisions maybe, and we have been punished. We are looking forward to the rest of the weekend. Thank you"

To re-quote you

What are you basising this on ? Do you know him ?

One opinion is as good as the next, I am a ferrari fan & not much aligned in the was of McLaren/LH but claiming that Ferrari are cleaner than white in comparison is somewhat unrealistic.

RayM

thegoth wrote: »

What are you basising this on ? Do you know him ?

As I said, it's a guess - McLaren's first instinct is to protect their 'superstar' at whatever cost. If one person owns up to being completely responsible, that takes at least some of the public blame away from Hamilton.

thegoth

De Hipster wrote: »

To re-quote you

One opinion is as good as the next, I am a ferrari fan & not much aligned in the was of McLaren/LH but claiming that Ferrari are cleaner than white in comparison is somewhat unrealistic.

I am not claiming that Ferrari are cleaner than white at all. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if they did this. What I am saying is the way they would deal with the consequences would be alot different than what McLaren are doing now. In the Schmuacher days, the team won and failed together. They would not single out anyone for blame in public

voxpop

Lewis is just un-likeable I think. Something about him. Jenson Button on the other had seem like a very likeable chap. F1 needs a baddie anyway - someone to dislike. Makes it all the more interesting.

thegoth

voxpop wrote: »

Lewis is just un-likeable I think. Something about him. Jenson Button on the other had seem like a very likeable chap. F1 needs a baddie anyway - someone to dislike. Makes it all the more interesting.

+1

vectra

voxpop wrote: »

Lewis is just un-likeable I think. Something about him. Jenson Button on the other had seem like a very likeable chap. F1 needs a baddie anyway - someone to dislike. Makes it all the more interesting.

+2

but
to a point. :rolleyes:

Slutmonkey57b

voxpop wrote: »

Lewis is just un-likeable I think. Something about him. Jenson Button on the other had seem like a very likeable chap. F1 needs a baddie anyway - someone to dislike. Makes it all the more interesting.

Jensen Button was equally hated at the beginning of his career for being a spoiled egotist. Deflates your point slightly.

And I remember many English commentators at the time stating that the difference between Schu and Hill, and what made Schu the better driver, was that he would do anything to win - and that nice guys aren't winners in F1. Senna was a notorious asshole, but the fans loved him. Hamilton is a mild asshole by comparison.

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Jensen Button was equally hated at the beginning of his career for being a spoiled egotist. Deflates your point slightly.

And I remember many English commentators at the time stating that the difference between Schu and Hill, and what made Schu the better driver, was that he would do anything to win - and that nice guys aren't winners in F1. Senna was a notorious asshole, but the fans loved him. Hamilton is a mild asshole by comparison.

Wrong

Hamilton is an Arrogant A$$hole

Biro

De Hipster wrote: »

Surely it is in the nature of a champion then?!

I can forgive a nasty, cheating action on the track where the race moment makes you do a rash thing to get the win. But I can't forgive an act of someone thinking about what they say after a race and trying to make someone else out as a cheat to get a point for yourself and them demoted. There's something much more mallice about that.
It's kind of like seeing someone doing something stupid on the road ahead of you, you get mad and do something like get out at the lights and kick their mirror off. Silly, but heat of the moment thing. On the other hand, if they did something similar, but you waited till you got home then spread romours about them being a rapist to get back at them instead of kicking their mirror off, that seems much worse!

cashmni1

Biro wrote: »

I can forgive a nasty, cheating action on the track where the race moment makes you do a rash thing to get the win. But I can't forgive an act of someone thinking about what they say after a race and trying to make someone else out as a cheat to get a point for yourself and them demoted. There's something much more mallice about that.
It's kind of like seeing someone doing something stupid on the road ahead of you, you get mad and do something like get out at the lights and kick their mirror off. Silly, but heat of the moment thing. On the other hand, if they did something similar, but you waited till you got home then spread romours about them being a rapist to get back at them instead of kicking their mirror off, that seems much worse!

I agree completely. Hamilton has a lot of growing up to do.

shamrock321

Last year I disliked Hamilton more than anyone else, infact I would say I almost hated the guy! but this year I have a new found respect for him, he is the future of F1 and the comments about him having to grow up are crap! There is no greater sign of maturity than holding your hands up and admitting you have made a mistake. He was clearly embarrased about it! You have to remember he is only 23/24 and stil learning about certain things. I was Schumachers biggest fan and if Schumacher had, had some of Hamiltons honestys his legacy would have been even greater!

I wouldnt have believed I would say this a year ago but maybe the FIA has some growing up to do! Their decsions of late have hardly been to popular.

BoardsRanger

shamrock321 wrote: »

I was Schumachers biggest fan and if Schumacher had, had some of Hamiltons honestys his legacy would have been even greater!

What a load of balls!

jamude

yes i like it tnx for all

Iridium

shamrock321 wrote: »

Last year I disliked Hamilton more than anyone else, infact I would say I almost hated the guy! but this year I have a new found respect for him, he is the future of F1 and the comments about him having to grow up are crap! There is no greater sign of maturity than holding your hands up and admitting you have made a mistake. He was clearly embarrased about it!

Embarrassed about it yes. But was it embarrassed about having done it, or having being caught? There is a huge difference.

pburns

Iridium wrote: »

Embarrassed about it yes. But was it embarrassed about having done it, or having being caught? There is a huge difference.

+1

I saw the press conference and unlike a few observers here find it difficult to believe Hamilton's remorse is genuine. The fact that he so blatantly laid the blame at Dave Ryan's door (repeating a number of times that he was 'mislead') was mind-boggling. He is a 24 year old World Champion - not a school kid!

It's like a group of young lads being caught stealing apples and one of them using the waterworks and claiming the bigger boys made him do it.

I think McLaren & Hamiltons readiness to sacrifice Ryan has lost them a lot of respect in the paddock - comments from Brundle (today's Times) and Coulthard.

Senna, Schumi etc. were capable of dasterdly deeds on track but worse than that in my view is the self-serving, back-stabbing duplicity evident is the decision to leave DR carrying the can and the po-faced faux remorse. He's worse than a cheat - I find the Hamiltons sneaky and creepy (NOT a racist comment...) He reminds me of that Dickens character Uriah Heep

vectra

pburns wrote: »

I find the Hamiltons sneaky and creepy (NOT a racist comment...) He reminds me of that Dickens character

along with the insult to Trulli and Toyota.

shamwari

Perhaps Lewis realises that McLaren are in no-mans-land as far as this season is concerned, and could probably use this latest debacle as an excuse to get out of his contract. If this were the case (and Brundle wondered aloud about it yesterday) then where could Hamiltion go? Most teams realise that this boy is high maintenance and be wary of him.

As for the Scuderia, the sooner they get Vettel and Kubica into their cars, the better...!

Iridium

vectra wrote: »

along with the insult to Trulli and Toyota.

Indeed - it's interesting how he apologised to everyone - the stewards, the team and the fans - everyone it seems except for Trulli, who's reputation was inevitably going to be tarnished with people thinking he was a dirty racer.

I still think he should be given a 3 race ban. Good enough for him. He's lucky he hasn't been disqualified from the championship altogether.

vectra

shamwari wrote: »

As for the Scuderia, the sooner they get Vettel and Kubica into their cars, the better...!

Why?
do you think that would make a difference to what they have at the moment??

shamwari

vectra wrote: »

Why?
do you think that would make a difference to what they have at the moment??

In the longer term I would prefer either or both in a Ferrari. Obviously neither will be interested at the mo until / unless Ferrari sorts out its performance deficit

vectra

shamwari wrote: »

In the longer term I would prefer either or both in a Ferrari. Obviously neither will be interested at the mo until / unless Ferrari sorts out its performance deficit

So,
Just because Jenson is in the best car at the moment and won the first two races automatically makes him better than Kimi and Massa?

Oblomov

Ralf Schumacher in Malaysia poured water on the 'lie-gate' saga, suggesting economy with the truth is not a rare commodity in formula one.

The former six-time grand prix winner was at Sepang last weekend, filling in for Niki Lauda as a pundit for German TV.

He therefore witnessed the scandal unfold first hand, from when the stewards disqualified Lewis Hamilton to the suspension of Dave Ryan.

It is now likely that the matter will be referred to the World Motor Sport Council, where sanctions against McLaren could be applied.

The German newspaper Bild am Sonntag asked Schumacher, who raced full-time in F1 for a decade until 2007, if he ever lied in his capacity as a driver.

"I could not say that, in my active time (in F1), that I would not have acted in the same situation in the same way (as Hamilton).

"You are together with your team," Schumacher, 34, said, "and together you say what you have to say."

Ralf said he does not condone lying "but on the other hand Lewis was surely not the first" to do so.

shamwari

vectra wrote: »

So,
Just because Jenson is in the best car at the moment and won the first two races automatically makes him better than Kimi and Massa?

No I certainly didn't say that. In the longer term I feel that Vettel & Kubica would be ideal replacements for the two Ferrari incumbents. I've nothing against either Massa and Raikonnen and do indeed rate both of them highly. Massa in particular is someone who I am quite fond of as a driver, and surely must have experienced some of the worst luck going in F1 last year. Despite the current downturn in Ferrari's performance, both Kimi and Fillipe are capable of being worthy world champions. My comments re Vettel / Kubica are aspirational and looking towards the future. In my opinion though, they would be the best driver pairing out there going forward.

vectra

shamwari wrote: »

Massa in particular is someone who I am quite fond of as a driver, and surely must have experienced some of the worst luck going in F1 last year.

I would agree with your whole responce except for this part
I think top prize should go to Kimi there for being the unluckiest guy on the grid

Sabre0001

shamwari wrote: »

In the longer term I would prefer either or both in a Ferrari. Obviously neither will be interested at the mo until / unless Ferrari sorts out its performance deficit

It's not just driver performance at the moment either though. Massa not making it through qualifying, the joke tactics for Kimi at the weekend, the (numerous) pitstop incidents last year.

Then you look at Brawn GP - Limited testing and knew how much they could bend the rules (if diffusers were to be banned it wouldn't surprise me if they have a solid backup!). Toyota - got tyre choices for Glock absolutely spot on. Intermediates when it started to rain, then when it got heavier (and everyone went to Inters), they switched to wets. If the race was not red flagged they were nearly certain of 1-2 finish (imo ).

But I also would be quite excited by the presence of Kubica and Vettel in a Ferrari (or at least Vettel in a top tier team).

Biro

There's probably a good chance that Vettel will end up in a Ferrari at some point in the future. Red Bull may improve a lot in the future, so keeping him there would be their main aim. Kubica can be a little hot and cold. Much more often hot than cold, but there are moments you wonder where his talent went!
Kimi is the most naturally talented guy on the grid, but he seems to be the least motivated. There's something wrong with his attitude, he absolutely defines hot and cold performances. If Ferrari get the car right and Kimi gets his head right, I'd like to see him get another title before he quits F1.
I'd like to see Button and Brawn take the title this year though. I never thought Button was the most talented on the grid, but for sheer heart and determination over the years he deserves results.

vectra

Biro wrote: »

There's probably a good chance that Vettel will end up in a Ferrari at some point in the future. Red Bull may improve a lot in the future, so keeping him there would be their main aim. Kubica can be a little hot and cold. Much more often hot than cold, but there are moments you wonder where his talent went!
Kimi is the most naturally talented guy on the grid, but he seems to be the least motivated. There's something wrong with his attitude, he absolutely defines hot and cold performances. If Ferrari get the car right and Kimi gets his head right, I'd like to see him get another title before he quits F1.
I'd like to see Button and Brawn take the title this year though. I never thought Button was the most talented on the grid, but for sheer heart and determination over the years he deserves results.

True regarding Vetel.. A star of the future there Id say
BUT
you must remember his age.as with Hamilton.. Very young and "Go for it at all costs" vision.

I notice all ther drivers at their later 20's or more have all mellowed. It is the young guns are doing most of the charging.



Kubica..!!
Not sure what to say about him..


I do admire Jenson.. good driver.. Nice attitude towards everyone else, Does NOT have a BIG HEAD and always appears to see the fun side of the sprot.
Not like his McLaren Countryman :rolleyes:

Whilst I agree with you there about Kimi.
I would find it difficult to see anyone racing their heart out when you are in a non competitive car and a non organised team

pburns

What I find most nauseating (admittedly I never liked Hamilton) is the way the FIA (and McLaren) have bent over backways to protect his image. It is arguable wheter or nor he's the best driver but what is not in question is the fact that he is the biggest box-office draw F1 has. It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$$

For example, the FIA statement says Lewis was 'procured'. I'm no lawyer but it seems to suggest big-bad McLaren induced/forced/persuaded Hamilton to tell lies. Which is cock! In summary:

- The FIA want to screw McLaren.
- McLaren wants to protect it's own image.
- Both parties want to protect LH.
- The FIA scapegoat McLaren, McLaren scapegoats 35-year vetern Dave Ryan.
- The Hamiltons are complicit in all of this, doing anything possible to deflect blame. I think F1 people could forgive a lie (it's a dog-eat-dog sport) but snitching on the team manager will go down very badly with the likes of Brundle et al.

enzo7

totally agree!!. hamiliton is a good driver but his hardly the next schumacher , i know schumacher was no saint but mistakes he made were usually split sec racing decisions. never in a million years would he have done what hamiliton did, i think the thing that will damage hamiliton the most in this mess is not the lieing because we would all get over that but is the fact he singled out a fellow team member. he should simply have said i was wrong to lie and simply say sorry. he was embarassed to be caught out not coz he lied, he had plenty of time after the meeting to think about it and do the right thing!

im a ferrari fan but kimi drives me insane hes soooo layed back im glad he won that title coz a driver of his talent should be a world champ. some times i wish he had a bit of massa passion, wouldnt want kubica/vettel at ferrari hoping they will find d nxt schumacher b4 kimi/massa retire, heres hoping!

RayM

enzo7 wrote: »

i know schumacher was no saint but mistakes he made were usually split sec racing decisions. never in a million years would he have done what hamiliton did,

I reckon Schumacher absolutely would have done what Hamilton did. As would Senna. And they wouldn't have shown any embarrassment or gone grovelling to the media about it afterward. They were proper unrepentant bastards - and most people could kind of respect them for it.

Dcully

RayM wrote: »

I reckon Schumacher absolutely would have done what Hamilton did. As would Senna. And they wouldn't have shown any embarrassment or gone grovelling to the media about it afterward. They were proper unrepentant bastards - and most people could kind of respect them for it.

I doubt either would have been so stupid to not realise radio chatter is open to race control :rolleyes:

Ping Chow Chi

Your right it does seem a silly, stupid thing to do and think that you could get away with it.

But maybe its because I'm not a huge F1 buff, but it was hardly the crime of the century, it's not as if he was forcing someone off the track or putting anyones life in danger.

smooch71

Dcully wrote: »

I doubt either would have been so stupid to not realise radio chatter is open to race control :rolleyes:

Is it possible that they just forgot? And was it always open to race control?

If I'm not mistaken, the teams could scramble their radio signals up to the start of this season. But not anymore.

McLaren and Ferrari were the only teams that in previous years the viewers didn't get to hear the team radio communication. Now it's open for all to hear.

enzo7

there isnt a hope in hell schumacher would hav blamed a fellow team member for his lies!! and then let guy who had served his team for 35yrs be fired. if schumacher was anything he was a team player and def wasnt stupid enought to lie about something he could so easily be caught out on. neither was senna. i dont tink schumacher was perfect he handled d whole jerez incident badly. anyway it really isnt the crime of the centuary just sad that dave ryan lost his job because hamiliton was so concerned bout protecting his own reputation pity he just done more damage to it.

vectra

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

it's not as if he was forcing someone off the track or putting anyones life in danger.

He tired that last season in Monza. ( Glock I think it was??)

smooch71 wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, the teams could scramble their radio signals up to the start of this season. But not anymore.

McLaren and Ferrari were the only teams that in previous years the viewers didn't get to hear the team radio communication. Now it's open for all to hear.

Correct


Can we not agree,
The whole upheavel is not because McLaren did wrong.
But is simply because this Back Stabbing git got caught out.
He is now running around like a headless chicken to cover his own Ar$e.

Give him a 3 race ban and a crap car to make him really struggle:D

Sabre0001

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

Your right it does seem a silly, stupid thing to do and think that you could get away with it.

But maybe its because I'm not a huge F1 buff, but it was hardly the crime of the century, it's not as if he was forcing someone off the track or putting anyones life in danger.

Unlike the last race of last season eh

zeris

smooch71 wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken, the teams could scramble their radio signals up to the start of this season. But not anymore.

I vaguely remember a journo asking Senna in his McLaren days about the radio conversation he heard regarding car problems. Senna replied roughly "how could you have heard as our radio is scrambled". So that would have been early 90's. But I don't know if Senna meant insecurely obfuscated or actually encrypted.

Yet in 1997 Ferrari had/alleged to have transcripts of radio conversations of Williams and/or McLaren at the last race. So either one or both teams where broadcasting in the clear or Ferrari had some sigint peeps cracking the signal.

EvilMonkey

smooch71 wrote: »

Is it possible that they just forgot? And was it always open to race control?

If I'm not mistaken, the teams could scramble their radio signals up to the start of this season. But not anymore.

McLaren and Ferrari were the only teams that in previous years the viewers didn't get to hear the team radio communication. Now it's open for all to hear.

As far as i remember it was always available to race control.

rugalo

sorry but did anyone actually listen to the radio conversation, i did and lewis repeatadly asked do i need to let trulli through.first of all yes mclaren were wrong in the way of not letting him know were he stood soon enough so as far as ican tell lh just said f**K it ill let him go.second of all how come it took the FIA so long to get back to mclaren on the situation so therefore the stewards should have known what happend without even asking mac or lh. ok neither said what happend maybe to save face,but misleading to deface toyota or jarno thats oxballs but they really should know the rules but apart from that mac or lh didnt actually do anything wrong except play it safe

FrostyJack

sorry but did anyone actually listen to the radio conversation, i did and lewis repeatadly asked do i need to let trulli through.first of all yes mclaren were wrong in the way of not letting him know were he stood soon enough so as far as ican tell lh just said f**K it ill let him go.second of all how come it took the FIA so long to get back to mclaren on the situation so therefore the stewards should have known what happend without even asking mac or lh. ok neither said what happend maybe to save face,but misleading to deface toyota or jarno thats oxballs but they really should know the rules but apart from that mac or lh didnt actually do anything wrong except play it safe

I don't know what your trying to say here. What McLaren did wrong was to lie to the stewards, they said they didn't let Trulli passed when the evidence says they did. McLaren admitted as much.

vectra

rugalo wrote: »

. ok neither said what happend maybe to save face,but misleading to deface toyota or jarno thats oxballs but they really should know the rules but apart from that mac or lh didnt actually do anything wrong except play it safe

You have got to be on a different planet if you think they did nothing wrong.

How about this.

1) Lying to gain one point

2) Insulting the FIA by repeatedly lying

3) Bringing the sport into disrepute

4) Insulting and demoralising another Driver and team ( Making Trulli and Toyota look like cheats )

5) FRAUD...!! by stealing one point would result in more money to the team.. FRAUDENTLY OBTAINING FUNDS...!!!

Need we go on for you??


You mean this adds up to " They did nothing wrong" :rolleyes:

enzo7

ya i heard it, the team told lewis to let trulli pass so he did then they tell him not to but he has already . then after the race hamilton/ryan go to the stewards and tell them trulli overtook lewis under a yellow but fail to mention the team had instructed lewis to let him passed. trulli is disqualified. the stewards then hear the maclaren radio exchange between lewis/team call lewis/ryan to stewards meeting on the thur of maylasia ,where there ask again about events at oz both of them stick to there storey. the stewards ask lewis more than once were you told to let trulli pass he says no they play the radio exchange he still denies it. he lied in melbourne but he had 4days to do the right thing but he decided not to but to lie and lie again!! plus he puts all the blame on dave ryans shoulders. instead of being a man about it and taking his share of the blame. what i dont understand is where was martin whitmarsh when all of this was going on?? his should have got fired too. they should get a 3 race ban anything else is a joke.

zeris

rugalo wrote: »

second of all how come it took the FIA so long to get back to mclaren on the situation so therefore the stewards should have known what happend without even asking mac or lh.

Because the stewards didn't have time to. Pretty simple answer.