Petrol/Diesel prices

juuge

I've noticed how over the past week to ten days the price of both diesel and petrol has been creeping up by in some cases a cent every two days. Why? because they can ! and when, no doubt, the prices are increased in the budget sure we'll blame it all on the government and the petrol retailers get away with yet another 'stroke'. W**kers!:D

darc

the cost of petrol on the world market has jumped from $1.15 to $1.47 per US gallon (3.8 litres) in the past 4 weeks.

This equates to a currency adjusted 6.5c per litre + vat increase bringing the forecourt increase to approx 8c / litre.

The duty per litre (50.79c) and the distribution / retail margin 7c - 11c /litre remains relatively static no matter what price refined petrol costs.

It is because of the miniscule margins on fuel that stations increase / decrease on a weekly basis.

so current price is made up as follows

cost of fuel 29c / litre
duty 50.79c / litre
distribution costs & profit 3c - 5c / litre
retail costs & margin 4c - 7c / litre

total= 86.79 - 91.79c / litre
add vat @ 21.5% and retail price = 105c - 111c per litre

current world price can be found here in $ per US gallon (3.8 litres)
http://www.nymex.com/RB_fut_cso.aspx?

juuge

darc wrote: »

It is because of the miniscule margins on fuel that stations increase on a weekly basis.

I've heard:o it all now !

greendom

juuge wrote: »

I've heard:o it all now !

Well it's true - forecourts make very little from fuel - just think about all the closed stations around and why those that are left have nearly all invested in improving their shops. That's where they can make a decent margin on breakfast rolls coffee etc etc.

juuge

greendom wrote: »

Well it's true - forecourts make very little from fuel - just think about all the closed stations around .

A great majority of those forecourt sites were sold off during the boom because property speculators reckoned they could make a quick profit in development land.
I cannot subscribe to the theory which appears to be based on the premise that petrol retailers set their pricing policy on some international formula which is somehow out of their control? While at the same time the same retailers charge 2.50+ for a cup of stinkin’ coffee that costs 12c to produce and one euro for a Mars Bar that can be bought in any cash & carry for 50c. The list is endless.
Petrol retailers are as ruthless as the majority of retailers are and it’s been that way since time began. I’ve always believed that because motor fuel is a necessity and we don’t have a choice of whether we should buy it or not, stricter regulation of pricing should apply. But we can shop-around and that’s what most of us do.

animaal

I think that when you take the taxes etc into account, the price of petrol is understandable.

The one thing that annoys me a bit is the speed at which price changes are implemented. When there's a sudden jump in the price of oil (because of war, or OPEC policy changes, etc), you can bet the price at the pumps will go up that night. But when the price of oil decreases, for some reason theres' a lag of a few weeks for it to reach the pumps.

darc

juuge - I've shown you precise breakdown of the fuel price backed up by real time exchange prices that prove beyond all doubt that fuel retailers do not make an excessive profit on fuel sales.

you seem not to accept this. can you provide any evidence whatsoever that fuel retailers are ripping off customers on petrol & diesel prices?

as for the property speculation reason for stations closing - this applies to cities & major towns, but cerainly not to the hundreds of small independent garages closed in small towns around the country who could not survive as they did not have a profitable food business attached.

Luckycharm

Juuge- Petrol stations make only a couple of cents off Petrol if you get €50 worth of petrol and pay for it with a credit card- that station has barely made any money from that transaction. If you buy a cup of coffee they make good margins- alot of petrol stations see the pumps as a car park for their shop.

darc

animaal wrote: »

I think that when you take the taxes etc into account, the price of petrol is understandable.

The one thing that annoys me a bit is the speed at which price changes are implemented. When there's a sudden jump in the price of oil (because of war, or OPEC policy changes, etc), you can bet the price at the pumps will go up that night. But when the price of oil decreases, for some reason theres' a lag of a few weeks for it to reach the pumps.

That's actually a false perception. People normally will notice a price rise quicker than a price fall as it sticks in their mind better.

Petrol prices on the world market jumped about 20% at the beginning of March and jumped further towards mid march. These prices have been feeding into the system in the past 2 weeks - about 2 weeks after the world prices jumped.

The primary reason for the very frequent changes in prices is because the margins are so tight (usually 3% - 4%) that a 1c rise has to be added when the whioesale price rise 1c, whereas in grocery store, a 5c rise in a pack of biscuits could be absorbed for a few weeks as the margins are at approx. 30% of retail price.

leitrim lad

if they only make so little ,then why is it that in my case as a contractor, the more white, or green diesel i buy from them ,they can as much as half the price,say if i buy 5000 litres of each, the price halves, but if i buy a 5 gallon drum of each the price is mad, and unaffordable.
explain how they make profits on that please

delop

darc your probably right in your figures, but there are some companies that take the piss in some areas....

I get my petrol from Topaz on the beaumount road, I have 2 problems with these feckers...

1) When the price of petrol was going down it took them days/weeks to pass on the decrease, however when the price goes up on the world market, the increase is passed on within 12 hrs...

2) There is another Topaz station on the Malahide Rd, 1/2 Km away and its almost always cheaper up to 5cent cheaper....

So I said right! before I take my business else where I had better talk to the manager... I was told that Prices are set by head office, and that the Malahide road area is cheaper because its a busier station and the one in beaumount is more of a residential area so ppl would be in too much of a rush in the morning to shop around. :-(

Very depressing :-(

delop

darc wrote: »

whereas in grocery store, a 5c rise in a pack of biscuits could be absorbed for a few weeks as the margins are at approx. 30% of retail price.

Apples and oranges, that pack of biscuits has been paid for at the old/agreed price b4 it goes on the shelf

GerardKeating

leitrim lad wrote: »

if they only make so little ,then why is it that in my case as a contractor, the more white, or green diesel i buy from them ,they can as much as half the price,say if i buy 5000 litres of each, the price halves, but if i buy a 5 gallon drum of each the price is mad, and unaffordable.
explain how they make profits on that please

I assume you are getting the green diesel deliver, so a bigger order speads the cost of the delviery over more liters maybe ?

Blue_Wolf

juuge wrote: »

I've noticed how over the past week to ten days the price of both diesel and petrol has been creeping up by in some cases a cent every two days. Why? because they can ! and when, no doubt, the prices are increased in the budget sure we'll blame it all on the government and the petrol retailers get away with yet another 'stroke'. W**kers!:D

Before you start waving your flag maybe you should look into the market and find out more about it. Maybe than you will know what your talking about.

darc

leitrim lad wrote: »

if they only make so little ,then why is it that in my case as a contractor, the more white, or green diesel i buy from them ,they can as much as half the price,say if i buy 5000 litres of each, the price halves, but if i buy a 5 gallon drum of each the price is mad, and unaffordable.
explain how they make profits on that please

Road diesel has duty of 36.8c (until midnight tonight anyway)- this is fixed no matter what the price is charged.

currently diesel costs approx. 33c / litre from the refinery

balance is made up of retail & distribution costs & margins + then 21.5% vat on top of that.

In your case, I don't know the duty on green diesel (may be zero like kerosene) White (road) diesel at cost for you would be about 70c + vat per litre that's assuming a zero profit / cost for the distributor whereas green diesel if zero duty could be as low as 33c a litre + vat. (Kerosene was 36c / litre + vat about 2 weeks ago)


btw. I have no connection / interest in the fuel business whatsoever - I had the same queries as most people about a year ago and went off to find out the figures involved. - And my overeall finding was that fuel retailers were probably the one type of retailer that did not over-charge for their products, yet they seem to attract very poor publicity mainly becasue joe public is uninformed of the true breakdown of the price.

juuge

darc wrote: »

....yet they seem to attract very poor publicity mainly becasue joe public is uninformed of the true breakdown of the price.

I suggest you have a vested interest in the petrol/diesel business and to somehow suggest that petrol retailers are 'holier-than-thou' is naive beyond belief.;)

Blue_Wolf

oh diesel up 5c now...

yop

Up 5c my head, place I passed this morning was 93c per litre. It is now 105c per litre!!! Rip of fukers

Luckycharm

juuge wrote: »

I suggest you have a vested interest in the petrol/diesel business and to somehow suggest that petrol retailers are 'holier-than-thou' is naive beyond belief.;)

Given you don't listen to what anyone is telling you and believe that the stations are raking it in - maybe you should look at buying one as there are some going very cheap days!!!

juuge

Luckycharm wrote: »

Given you don't listen to what anyone is telling you...

Oh ! I listen allright - I just don't believe it ! - I think I'm entitled to that !;)

darc

juuge wrote: »

I suggest you have a vested interest in the petrol/diesel business and to somehow suggest that petrol retailers are 'holier-than-thou' is naive beyond belief.;)

I have a business alright but it has no connection with fuel / food / deli. Its in a specialist area and I have had other businesses prior to this one which were in the fashion/footwear area. - Basically I know a bit about margins & costs.

Also, I have provided a full and colobrative breakdown of the price of fuel paid at the pumps showing that between Distributor & retailer & all their costs including rent, rates, electricity, credit card charges, wages & transport, etc. etc. the total average take on each litre is between 8c & 12c a litre. - Hardly a rip-off!

wheras everyday stores such as Homebase, Argos, Next & especially Debenhams in Ireland are working on horrendous rip off margins of 60% - 65% (basically an item that costs you €10 excluding VAT costs them €3.50) throughout their stores here whereas in the UK they work on margins of 45 - 50%. - Now that IS a rip off!

juuge

darc wrote: »

I. the total average take on each litre is between 8c & 12c a litre. - Hardly a rip-off!

Just a couple of things there....
Who decides what is a rip-off? My contention all along has been that fuel is a necessity and not an impulse item, so I believe other rules should apply. When you explain in great detail how the rsp for both petrol & diesel is arrived at, you give the impression that petrol retailers are not at fault for 'jerking-around' with prices that somehow it's not their fault. It would be a good idea to look at the surveys carried out by the AA who give a very precise breakdown of what the petrol retailers are up to. I commute fairly regularly from Wexford to Dublin and I can see not only locally inflated fuel prices compared to Dublin but also several garages in small trowns all charging exactly the same prices as each other. Let them do what they like with the price of sandwiches, chocolate etc but lay off the feckin' around with fuel prices. As fuel is a necessity and we're in the deepest recession ever, messin' with petrol & diesel prices is hardly patriotic.

darc

juuge wrote: »

Just a couple of things there....
Who decides what is a rip-off? My contention all along has been that fuel is a necessity and not an impulse item, so I believe other rules should apply. When you explain in great detail how the rsp for both petrol & diesel is arrived at, you give the impression that petrol retailers are not at fault for 'jerking-around' with prices that somehow it's not their fault. It would be a good idea to look at the surveys carried out by the AA who give a very precise breakdown of what the petrol retailers are up to. I commute fairly regularly from Wexford to Dublin and I can see not only locally inflated fuel prices compared to Dublin but also several garages in small trowns all charging exactly the same prices as each other. Let them do what they like with the price of sandwiches, chocolate etc but lay off the feckin' around with fuel prices. As fuel is a necessity and we're in the deepest recession ever, messin' with petrol & diesel prices is hardly patriotic.

Can you point to the AA surveys?

Last one I saw showed my figures to be correct. - Based on average AA prices (February), less vat, less duty less average price for refined petrol for the particular month (February) as per the nymex exchange equals 10.8c - which is the total shared between Retailer & distributor. Some of them 8c, some of them 12c.

Similarly, a pint of milk will cost 60c in some shops & 70c in other shops. The great thing about purchasing fuel is that the price is displayed in large format at the outside of the stations so you ahve a choice of where to go - it is the most transparent pricing display system within the whole retail market.

Still, you have not shown the rip off!

juuge

darc wrote: »

- it is the most transparent pricing display system within the whole retail market.

Bear in mind the petrol retailers were forced to display their prices and just because prices are displayed does not mean they are fair. You continue to defend a retailing group that have many instances of extreme profiteering in the likes of food and confectionery and then expect us to believe that when it comes to selling their fuel they are somehow squeeky clean. Sorry! but I don't agree. It is my opinion that they are rip-off merchants and whether you agree or not will not change matters in the slightest.

darc

juuge wrote: »

Bear in mind the petrol retailers were forced to display their prices and just because prices are displayed does not mean they are fair. You continue to defend a retailing group that have many instances of extreme profiteering in the likes of food and confectionery and then expect us to believe that when it comes to selling their fuel they are somehow squeeky clean. Sorry! but I don't agree. It is my opinion that they are rip-off merchants and whether you agree or not will not change matters in the slightest.

I know that many charge high prices for coffee / food / confectionery. Personally I rarely buy anything other than fuel in a station. But on fuel, I know their margins are tiny as they make their profits from the food / deli counter and as I don't buy food / deli, customers like me get value.

so we sort of agree!:D

Luckycharm

juuge wrote: »

Bear in mind the petrol retailers were forced to display their prices and just because prices are displayed does not mean they are fair. You continue to defend a retailing group that have many instances of extreme profiteering in the likes of food and confectionery and then expect us to believe that when it comes to selling their fuel they are somehow squeeky clean. Sorry! but I don't agree. It is my opinion that they are rip-off merchants and whether you agree or not will not change matters in the slightest.

I work in the industry and the amount of people come into it thinking it is easy money and get themselves in trouble very quickly - hence so many places closing down. It is high turnover low margin industry 2/3% on fuel- I don't understand why another poster saw fuel 5cs cheaper somewhere else but continued to buy where was more expensive
Like anything else the prices will be down to the local competition if you are the only gargage in the middle of nowhere then I would not be surprised if they charge a bit more - same as a small shop with no supermarket near by. Like anything else shop around if you think every Petrol station is racking it in I am afraid you are wrong - as I say if you believe so you should look into buying one

juuge

darc wrote: »

so we sort of agree!:D

Touché;)

Bluetonic

juuge wrote: »

Touché;)

How come you haven't answered the questions asked of you?

juuge

Bluetonic wrote: »

How come you haven't answered the questions asked of you?

Shucks! I didn't know you cared ! - Anyway I couldn't afford to buy a petrol station, you know recession and all that.:)

P.C.

juuge wrote: »

A great majority of those forecourt sites were sold off during the boom because property speculators reckoned they could make a quick profit in development land.
I cannot subscribe to the theory which appears to be based on the premise that petrol retailers set their pricing policy on some international formula which is somehow out of their control? While at the same time the same retailers charge 2.50+ for a cup of stinkin’ coffee that costs 12c to produce and one euro for a Mars Bar that can be bought in any cash & carry for 50c. The list is endless.
Petrol retailers are as ruthless as the majority of retailers are and it’s been that way since time began. I’ve always believed that because motor fuel is a necessity and we don’t have a choice of whether we should buy it or not, stricter regulation of pricing should apply. But we can shop-around and that’s what most of us do.

You do have a choice. It is not a necessity, you choose to see it as a necessity.

You don't have to buy it!